Matt Taylor
Established Member
Spot on, happened less than a fortnight ago, youths train surfing resulting in an emergency stop and nobody getting hurt. The driver had no idea what had happened until I told him.
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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Given that the article states he was previously responsible for conductor competence might well mean he heavily favours their side of the argument
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Perhaps the Department for Transport would like to publish a report with such figures in it.
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Or more likely, that he would know from experience the reality.
Dear Moderators,
Can we please have a separate thread covering dispatch methods to manage the risk of the platform Train Interface (PTI).
Whilst DOO is one such method, many of the last few pages are not specifically about DOO, and where they are, refer to the various processes and technology used. I'd suggest these issues are part of a separate discussion of, whether DOO is permitted or not, of what is the safest way to dispatch a train.
Stow
Can we please have a separate thread covering dispatch methods to manage the risk of the platform Train Interface (PTI).
Whilst DOO is one such method, many of the last few pages are not specifically about DOO, and where they are, refer to the various processes and technology used. I'd suggest these issues are part of a separate discussion of, whether DOO is permitted or not, of what is the safest way to dispatch a train.
Stow
Interesting. If GTR lose, could they be made to pay the same amount incurred by ASLEF previously? Perhaps ASLEF could have the money back that they gave GTR. Then the legal winners would be the lawyers at least.
I do hope ASLEF are able to defend this.
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I wonder if that is causing issues for all TOCs as a result.
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Alternatively didn't GTR have the option to have stung ASLEF for more (lost revenue)! after they admitted defeat in the last court case?, if it was possible maybe on hindsight they should have done so , it might have at least given most commuters a less stressful lead up to Christmas
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You do realise the court can't force ASLEF members to work overtime or stop working to rule.
Exactly!
If the court rules that people in customer service industries can't strike because of breaching consumer rights then for me I think it's about time for more direct action in defiance because the High Court will have lost it's legitimacy. That cannot be allowed to stand as a business as usual decision.
But we are told that this whole debate is a load of militant unqualified railway workers spouting opinions which are not based on fact. Then a former manager who has additional responsibilities and liabilities, and as pro-DOO supporters like to claim, sees a bigger picture than the messroom boys and girls, speaks out. I note you have not attempted to debunk any of his concerns.
Remember that when guards are hauled in front of inquiries or the dock, it is people like this manager who will also be questioned at length.
Thanks. There were a couple more but that should keep a few on here quiet for a bit who think these DOO cameras are the best thing since sliced bread
Surely then the dispute should be about upgrading cameras to high definition if you say the image is not good enough. Make it good enough so it is usable. (but this does not fit in with your resist change at any measure mentality)
Again the images shown are only as good as the camera capturing them ... so do we know what type of device captured these images. But the 1st point is the important one in this message.
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So again how does a driver communicate with passengers on the platform and deal with with them? And the fact that we are continually told that another driver in the cab, the guard / dispatcher / signaller speaking to us is a major distraction, but apparently dealing with passengers is not. The average commuter is not going to start causing any trouble. People causing concern in the dispatch corridor are essentially children, teens, idiots, drunk, on drugs, criminals or have mental health issues, the very people who are a serious distraction to drivers. CCTV whether it is good or bad is a distraction from my duties. A dispatcher and guard should be dealing with this.
Not to mention even the RSSB admits DOO leads to a greater risk of a safety incident. Drivers should have nothing to do with dispatch bar taking power when getting two on the bell, the flag or the RA.
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Speak to tube train drivers, they manage it quite successfully ... or are Southern Drivers those that get rejected by LU.
Was it not the guy from the RSSB on the commons video saying the DDO is safe?
Passengers are what you are there for .... another colleague in the cab is not! No passengers = no job!
A driver can shout at the commuter out of his window ... that is all a guard would do ... it has been mentioned before. So what exactly does the guard do about the drunk on the platform?
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It operates, however that isn't an argument for extending, or even keeping DOO, for which they're are no arguments, considering the environment has changed. Longer trains, more passengers.
No, he is there to do a job. the job being to drive the train, nothing more.
No, a driver should be driving his train, not being expected to shout out the window. That is what a guard needs to be there for.
Tube trains have had multiple incidents with CCTV self dispatch - see the RAIB report.
The RSSB bloke spoke a load of corporate waffle with no coherent points, and was roasted by the MPs. He did not put any facts or figures down at all.
I am not here to deal with passengers directly, I am here to drive a train. I am not a steward, customer service representative, social worker, policeman, or nursemaid. I simply don't have the time, the resources or the authority for starters. Anyone else in the cab is trained in rules, regulations and appropriate behaviour. Of course I am there for a colleague in the cab who may well be route learning, traction refreshing, returning from a fatality, front end turning, signal sighting or whatever else.
A guard is on the platform after the doors are opened, on the platform when checking the doors, on the platform when closing the doors, on the platform before closing his local door. A guard can see platform exits and entrances, knows who is traveling on his train, can position himself appropriately on the platform and in many trains where to dispatch from.
The guard is in a position directly to speak to the drunk, to dispatch close to where the drunk is if there is a risk the drunk may stumble under the train, to escort the drunk away from the platform edge or off the station if need be, if he sees there is a problem if the drunk is getting off, to assist the drunk on the platform or onto the train, to seat the drunk, to establish the nature of the drunk - whether he is violent and a threat to anyone and whether that requires police, additional assistance, or tact and a friendly ear to bend, whether he needs to be monitored on the train and put somewhere where he won't upset other passengers or endanger himself or anyone else.
The driver is locked in a cab. He can do nothing whatsoever from where he is, and cannot ascertain any behaviour properly from CCTV. Any attempts to deal with passengers will involve phoning up the signal box, shutting the cab down, securing the cab before doing anything else. When he has dealt with it - assuming he can do, he then has to re-enter the cab, open the desk up, contact the signaller and restart everything from scratch yet again. This process takes an absolute age, and adds risks of distraction from signal sighting / checking crossings / p-way workers and various other stuff, if he is concerned about passengers on platforms / cord pullers and anti social behaviour.
Incidentally I will always assist my guard or platform staff if need be. But that's as a second person if things get out of hand. It is not my primary responsibility. And as other drivers who work DOO have said - there are locations where drivers are told not to leave the cab if anything happens.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
So you don't respect the judiciary then? I can't see how this is going to end well.
Equally it is not an argument for not extending DDO
Driving a train makes them responsible for passengers ... The view that a train driver has no responsibility for the safety of the passengers is just plan denial. I am shocked and amazed at the audacity of that comment. It is blatantly wrong, as DDO drivers already have that responsibility.
If that was the case ... existing DDO operations would not move until such time a passengers had ensured all doors were closed ... which is clearly not the case
Again .... what do the multitude of existing DDO drivers do .... they have proved a work around can be reached without the need for a guard
Basically it boils down to the want not to undertake a bit of responsibility ... in the days of slam door trains, yes we need a guard ... automatic doors ... the guards job has become obsolete ... just admit, it can be done ... but you just don't want to do it.
Virtually every other industry has updated their working practices many times since the 80s .... so why is the railway so unique ... we have to have the same 80s working practices in place.
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The passengers that act in a way which is detrimental to safety often don't pay anyway. The average season ticket holder or peak fare businessman is not the one interfering with the doors / train surfing / abusing people / endangering themselves and everyone else.
Dont disagree with your comment ... but not sure what it is trying to prove or disprove
That's just the standard union line to any DOO debate at present, it's constantly repeated and they just seem to expect everyone who isn't a driver to simply go away, and accept it without serious argument, or there'll eventually be travel chaos
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Most of the passengers I've read about coming a cropper with the PTI seem to be pretty regular people. I'm sure the KGX incident wasn't down to some ne'er-do-well.
In any case, the railway has a duty of care to everyone it comes across. Even the drunk, f3ckless and weak willed.
We have the responsibility for the carriage of those passengers on a moving train. If I go through a red signal or collide with something else due to my own error I am liable. Big difference than the onboard customer service, personal safety, or responsibility for idiotic behaviour on platforms.
They work with a flawed system, and many transfer onto guarded lines at the first opportunity they have.
Do I want liability for drunks and idiotic behaviour on platforms, or put myself at greater risk of assault / abuse because a few corporates want to save money - no. Guards are not obsolete and you have made no argument whatsoever to justify that they are.
Why do planes still have a first officer then? Why do police go around in pairs?
Incidentally the guards in many cases have changed their working practices - the modern guard is based in an office in the centre of the train such as on SWT and Virgin West Coast, with access to the latest real time journey information, and smartphone apps, laying down wheelchair ramps, concentrating on customer service, rather than sat in a Mark I brake van chain smoking, kicking slam doors shut, doing brake continuity tests, and hooking locos on and off.
So your guard is there to risk being assaulted, thus saving the driver ... good to see how you regard the driver/guard relationship ... not sure I would want to be working with you
Seems the sole driver issue here is they are frightened to take on extra responsibility ... adapt and evolve ... as many industries are told ... if you can not keep up with the change ... you are in the wrong job ... the choice is yours at the end of the day
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I have no idea what you do for a living. Would you be prepared to accept more stress in your job, more distractions, a higher risk of abuse / assault and liability for people who act in a blatantly dangerous and / or stupid manner, which could lead to prosecution and imprisonment as well as unemployment and loss of pension over your other duties, because of corporate / government ideology?
That is what it boils down to.
Oh it absolutely is, along with the many others which have been put forward. they're has been no argument what soever put forward in support of DDO.
Nice twist of words, but you might actually wish to re-read what was written, not what you wanted to be written. Oh and i have nothing to do with the railway, but if i can figure out the driver has enough to do without having to deal with passenger issues then they're is no excuse for everyone else.
A not very good work around, as it looks to have a lot of problems compared to guard operation.
the driver has enough responsibility driving the train. End of story. the guards job has not become obsolete. Power doors or slam doors or whatever doors mean nothing here.
What same 80s practices.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Not all planes have a first officer and not all police go around in pairs. Quite often they're ordered to patrol alone.
Yet no serious argument has been put forward against those facts. At least not on here from what i can find anyway.
You are twisting what is been written again. I'd give it up as it's not going to work for you.
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And you are little more than an ignorant troll who has ignored the postings of various drivers and guards and twisted everything to suit your agenda. You have no idea of how I work, nor my previous railway roles prior to driving - which have been customer facing.
How dare you assume that I support my guard being assaulted, and that I view him as some sort of human shield, despite the fact I have said I will always back my guard up. Especially as you think guards are obsolete. Don't give me this rot that you suddenly care for the guard at all. It is tripe and you damn well know it.
I, and others have given you the benefit of the doubt by continually answering your points, no matter how confused they may appear. This little diatribe proves you like another poster on here have nothing of value to contribute and are simply here on a wind up.
Grow up.
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