Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Dave1987]

Yes, the Liverpool case changed everything. It's a job that carries responsibility. However, all railway staff has been given more and more aids over the years to prevent accidents. The Driver's role is very sanitised compared to what it was and many risks have been reduced to such an extent they can carry out DOO roles safely (in the RSSB, ORR opinion). So much so there's still probably more chance of a driver being prosecuted driving a road vehicle, even if they drive a train for a living. I see no problem if the drivers get extra pay and guard redundancy is handled by natural wastage. You can't expect nothing to change for the next 50 years.

You have never driven a train so how on earth can you make sweeping statements like that? Please give an example of how the drivers role has been "sanitised"?

 

[Llanigraham]

So the guard is there for safety but doesn't always feel safe themselves? Surely that means 2 members of staff on all trains is a system which doesn't work - some need more than 2 and maybe a solution for finding more is to identify if any services can safely be worked by 1?

2 different and unconnected matters. One is personal safety, ie, not being assaulted by disgruntled passengers, the other is the safety of the train in an incident, ie, laying protection.

I would consider train drivers and guards to be middle class in 2016. Long gone are the days when they worked dirty steam trains for poor pay. Although, before people object to that comment I'll add some staff employed by TOCs like customer services and RPIs are working class.

What the hell has class got to do with it?

 

[AlterEgo]

Well I see this thread is descending into a political rant accusing anyone who is against DOO of being "communist". Then again the whole country is going down the pan at the moment so why should we be surprised.

You would see that, because it's difficult for you to accept that there aren't just two sides to the whole argument.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What the hell has class got to do with it?

A good question, that should be asked of Sean Hoyle.

 

[highdyke]

You have never driven a train so how on earth can you make sweeping statements like that? Please give an example of how the drivers role has been "sanitised"?

I have actually driven a train, driven simulators (commercial and non commercial) and know the rule book and probably more about how the UK's network is laid out that you will ever know..

Leaving that aside, even in the 1990s some lines didn't have AWS, in the 1970s it was commonplace, there was no radio on most trains in the 1970s either, semaphores have been replaced bright colour lights that can shine through fog, continuous air brakes, power operated doors, better suspension and axles boxes, decent ergonomic cabs with air conditioning and decent view, no risk of being scolded by steam, power as required, DRA, TPWS, clear speed signage, ATP on some lines, ERMTS on others, and so on and so forth..

The railway is not anything like it was even in the 50s, let alone the Edwardian or Victorian period. You would be insane to suggest otherwise. It has changed and it will change.

 

[Dave1987]

You would see that, because it's difficult for you to accept that there aren't just two sides to the whole argument.

At this current time if Ed Milliband was still Labour leader he would be walking all over the current Government. Its a complete shambles. The Tory hard right have taken over ever since this Brexit vote went through even though a lot of those who voted for Brexit with be pushing up daisies by the time the fall out has finished. And while the Tory hard right are dominating the front benches they seem to want to stick it to the unions so have been deliberately provocative. And we now have Tory MPs from the likes of Bath tweeting that the unions need to be "dealt with". We are heading in a very very bad direction currently.

 

[Dave1987]

I have actually driven a train, driven simulators (commercial and non commercial) and know the rule book and probably more about how the UK's network is laid out that you will ever know..

Leaving that aside, even in the 1990s some lines didn't have AWS, in the 1970s it was commonplace, there was no radio on most trains in the 1970s either, semaphores have replaced bright colour lights that can shine through fog, continuous air brakes, power operated doors, better suspension and axles boxes, decent ergonomic cabs with air conditioning and decent view, no risk of being scolded by steam, power as required, DRA, TPWS, clear speed signage, ATP on some lines, ERMTS on others, and so on and so forth..

The railway is not anything like it was even in the 50s, let alone the Edwardian or Victorian period. You would be insane to suggest otherwise. It has changed and it will change.

I'm not even going to bother responding to that. I've have used professional signalling simulator in a power box. It in no way means I know the ins and outs of being a signaller. Anyway you clearly know absolutely everything, (even though you begrudgingly admitted you didn't completely know the the GSMR as well as you thought you did) I just give up with you.

 

[northwichcat]

2 different and unconnected matters. One is personal safety, ie, not being assaulted by disgruntled passengers, the other is the safety of the train in an incident, ie, laying protection.

Rubbish. The guard won't see a train related incident (smoke, loose panel, window broken by tree branch etc.) in the middle carriage by remaining in the rear cab and not communicating with passengers so is putting their personal safety ahead of train safety. I'm sure the guard could be made to appear after an injury has occurred but it's likely a guard who's familiar with the train could spot a potential safety concern before an injury occurs if they walk through regularly.

What the hell has class got to do with it?

The RMT brought up the Tories forgetting the working class specifically as a reason for continuing the Southern industrial action. If you're a RMT member I'm sure your union representative can explain what that is supposed to mean. To a non-RMT member it sounds like the RMT isn't fit for any purpose.

 

[highdyke]

in a power box. It in no way means I know the ins and outs of being a signaller. Anyway you clearly know absolutely everything, (even though you begrudgingly admitted you didn't completely know the the GSMR as well as you thought you did) I just give up with you.

You don't know everything about railway operations or risk assessment either. I agree I'm not as expert as you at driving by a long shot, but let's not pretend I know nothing. I'm quite happy to leave it to the professionals at ORR and RSSB, while you have some good points, in my opinion, they should have the final say.

 

[devinier]

I have actually driven a train, driven simulators (commercial and non commercial) and know the rule book and probably more about how the UK's network is laid out that you will ever know..

Leaving that aside, even in the 1990s some lines didn't have AWS, in the 1970s it was commonplace, there was no radio on most trains in the 1970s either, semaphores have replaced bright colour lights that can shine through fog, continuous air brakes, power operated doors, better suspension and axles boxes, decent ergonomic cabs with air conditioning and decent view, no risk of being scolded by steam, power as required, DRA, TPWS, clear speed signage, ATP on some lines, ERMTS on others, and so on and so forth..

The railway is not anything like it was even in the 50s, let alone the Edwardian or Victorian period. You would be insane to suggest otherwise. It has changed and it will change.

With respect, try driving a real one, day after day, before commenting on how sanitised it is.
I can assure you that modern signals do not penetrate fog, and the cabs I sit in are far from ergonomic or air conditioned.

 

[highdyke]

Indeed, but I refer you to the Lewisham accident of 1957 on those matters and while not perfect, it's better than it was and that's my point.

 

[Robertj21a]

At this current time if Ed Milliband was still Labour leader he would be walking all over the current Government.

Sorry to take just this bit out of your post - but it's one of the more amusing posts on this whole forum. If a comment like that is what makes you a 'well-rounded', centre-right (or left) individual then heaven help the rest of us. Perhaps we should all insist on that nice Tony Bliar to come back and save us all.........

You just couldn't make this up !!

 

[northwichcat]

At this current time if Ed Milliband was still Labour leader he would be walking all over the current Government. Its a complete shambles. The Tory hard right have taken over ever since this Brexit vote went through even though a lot of those who voted for Brexit with be pushing up daisies by the time the fall out has finished. And while the Tory hard right are dominating the front benches they seem to want to stick it to the unions so have been deliberately provocative. And we now have Tory MPs from the likes of Bath tweeting that the unions need to be "dealt with". We are heading in a very very bad direction currently.

Milliband had a clear view on the EU - we want to remain. Corbyn was more on the fence and has now said he'll support Brexit subject to a couple of conditions - which are conditions a number of Conservatives want anyway. However, the majority of the unions backed Corbyn opposed to Burnham (I think one union backed him) and the rail unions backed Brexit - probably due to all the foreign companies involved in the UK railways - but I'm not sure they really thought about it otherwise they would have realised at some point a national rail company will be controlled by a Conservative government, which I don't think is what the RMT and ASLEF want. If they want regional railway operators run by regional authorities then it's perhaps a different matter.

 

[Carlisle]

Please give an example of how the drivers role has been "sanitised"?

Brake tests, coupling and handbrakes etc far more automated than say 25!years ago plus no need to look back on every station departure for open slam doors

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry to take just this bit out of your post - but it's one of the more amusing posts on this whole forum. If a comment like that is what makes you a 'well-rounded', centre-right (or left) individual then heaven help the rest of us. Perhaps we should all insist on that nice Tony Bliar to come back and save us all.........

You just couldn't make this up !!

Hmmmm not really. It is very very obvious that the Lib Dems were the ones restraining the Tories in the Coalition. Ed Milliband may well have been known as "Red Ed" years ago when he was leader, but that was when we had a the Lib Dems pulling the Tories into the centre ground. Now we have a Tory Government and the right wing has taken over. This Government actually makes Ed Milliband look pretty reasonable and I never ever thought I would say that. Tony Blair won power very very convincingly by targeting the centre ground and retained power for many years. With the Tories going hard right I cannot see them keeping the marginal seats they won in 2015, that's despite Mrs May protesting she will be a PM for all people. Hollow hollow words.

 

[Johnuk123]

With the Tories going hard right I cannot see them keeping the marginal seats they won in 2015.

If you think the Tories are hard right you're deluded there is no mainstream party in this country that is far right, UKIP certainly isn't.
Same as there are no mainstream far left parties.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you think the Tories are hard right you're deluded there is no mainstream party in this country that is far right, UKIP certainly isn't.

Agreed, they're probably a bit more to the right than when they were in the coalition - but nothing anywhere near far right. With the current shambles of any opposition it looks like they'll be there for about another 8-9 years, at least. Anyway, back to DOO......

 

[Dave1987]

If you think the Tories are hard right you're deluded there is no mainstream party in this country that is far right, UKIP certainly isn't.

Well that's your perception. Having MP's from the ruling party talk with palpable glee of nullifying unions does not strike me as being anything but hard right. Seems some Tory MPs are delightful that they have an excuse with which to try and get rid of the unions. Certainly the right wing press are going hell for leather about it. A centre ground party certainly would not be using the language the Tories are at the moment.

 

[Dave1987]

Agreed, they're probably a bit more to the right than when they were in the coalition - but nothing anywhere near far right. With the current shambles of any opposition it looks like they'll be there for about another 8-9 years, at least. Anyway, back to DOO......

That is a massive understatement. I believe it will be a Lib Dem - Labour coalition in 2020 by current goings on. Lib Dems are actually starting to look like a very very competent party. Tories are descending back into the nasty party.

 

[Mag_seven]

Unions are needed now more than ever - look at the way workers have been treated at Sports Direct and BHS. However the RMT and ASLEF don't do themselves any favours sometimes with their outright hostility to change and statements about bringing governments down.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe it will be a Lib Dem - Labour coalition in 2020 by current goings on.

If you believe that, you'd believe anything...

 

[absolutelymilk]

When is control of the doors actually being given to the drivers on Southern and on which routes? Or are these strikes still about the 387s being DOO?

 

[Dave1987]

If you believe that, you'd believe anything...

Sorry Paul but this government has descended into an utter utter shambles. Industrial relations are at their worst point for a very very long time yet we have Tory MPs using it as an excuse to try and change the laws regarding unions rather than seek to address the issues and concerns of the unions. If it isn't the aim of the Government to get rid of the unions then maybe it should be telling its MPs to shut up and stop tweeting about how the unions need to be nullified. Wonder how comfortable those Tory MPs in the very marginal seats won in 2015 will be feeling in 2020 if things carry on as they are eh?

 

[Dave1987]

Unions are needed now more than ever - look at the way workers have been treated at Sports Direct and BHS. However the RMT and ASLEF don't do themselves any favours sometimes with their outright hostility to change and statements about bringing governments down.

Indeed it was very very silly to do so.

 

[devinier]

Back to DOO, aslef's mistake was whenever they agreed to it in any form in the first place. If it's not safe then all DOO must stop now. Kicking off about extending it to 12 cars is political, whatever Mr Whelan may say. Sadly, I believe this will be the reason Southern will eventually "win".

 

[Legzr1]

I have actually driven a train, driven simulators (commercial and non commercial) and know the rule book and probably more about how the UK's network is laid out that you will ever know..

Leaving that aside, even in the 1990s some lines didn't have AWS, in the 1970s it was commonplace, there was no radio on most trains in the 1970s either, semaphores have been replaced bright colour lights that can shine through fog, continuous air brakes, power operated doors, better suspension and axles boxes, decent ergonomic cabs with air conditioning and decent view, no risk of being scolded by steam, power as required, DRA, TPWS, clear speed signage, ATP on some lines, ERMTS on others, and so on and so forth..

The railway is not anything like it was even in the 50s, let alone the Edwardian or Victorian period. You would be insane to suggest otherwise. It has changed and it will change.

Driven 'a' train?
LMAO.

Mate, you're a fool if you think there aren't hundreds of miles of railway without AWS, TPWS, clean signage, very poor radio reception and many many miles of absolute block sections using semaphore signalling.

Dave is right about you I'm afraid - a little knowledge can be very dangerous.

And this, all from an ex-signaller?
The mind boggles, it really does.

 

[highdyke]

Driven 'a' train?
LMAO.

Mate, you're a fool if you think there aren't hundreds of miles of railway without AWS, TPWS, clean signage, very poor radio reception and many many miles of absolute block sections using semaphore signalling.

Dave is right about you I'm afraid - a little knowledge can be very dangerous.

And this, all from an ex-signaller?
The mind boggles, it really does.

No, you think I think I don't know that.

 

[Legzr1]

No, you think I think I don't know that.

Can't have it both ways.

You don't know what you're talking about hence your post mention AWS etc or you do know what you're talking about and that post was some obscure joke.

Which is it?

Perhaps google is your friend?

 

[AlterEgo]

Back to DOO, aslef's mistake was whenever they agreed to it in any form in the first place. If it's not safe then all DOO must stop now. Kicking off about extending it to 12 cars is political, whatever Mr Whelan may say. Sadly, I believe this will be the reason Southern will eventually "win".

ASLEF are just holding out for a deal at the moment. They'll walk back when they get offered a decent pay or terms deal.

 

[highdyke]

Can't have it both ways.

You don't know what you're talking about hence your post mention AWS etc or you do know what you're talking about and that post was some obscure joke.

Which is it?

Perhaps google is your friend?

You made an idiot of yourself the other day when you said people forget there are alternatives into London (and other major cities) for commuters. We can discuss that if you like as well.

Don't do it again assuming the knowledge of other people or try and distort what they are arguing.

The job is not the same 50 or 100 years ago, yes there are some lines with semaphore signalling (I'll tell you exactly where they are if you like) but stuff like AWS is universal bar a few defined circumstances. For example around areas with low line speeds and restricted overlaps like Birmingham New Street.

There are also requirements of DOO, so wouldn't be applied over some lines.