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Southern region electrification proposals

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Drsatan

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Before reading this thread, you might want to read this one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47756&highlight=3rd+rail+electrif. This is because it will place what I am about to say into perspective.

I support any plans for a gradual re-electrification of the Southern 3rd rail network at 25kV AC. If Basingstoke to Reading and Reading - Coventry via Oxford is electrified concurrently with the electrification of the GWML, then not only can all XC services from Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly be formed of EMUs, but any Freightliner services to Birmingham and destinations beyond can be hauled by 90s or 92s. Furthermore, Basingstoke to Reading local services can be worked by EMUs (possibly displaced 319s, although there might not be enough to go around), releasing about 3 or 4 165s for other duties.

However, the question remains as to how the network can be re-electrified without causing too much disruption.

The SWML should be re-electrified first of all because of its proximity to the GWML (which may have been electrified by the time re-electrification happens). Therefore, I'd suggest that Waterloo to Basingstoke ought to be re-electrified first because it's the busiest section of the SWML. To avoid too much disruption I suggest that two lines should be closed at any one time while two remain open, assuming it's still possible once logistics, health & safety and so on are taken into account. At the same time the Hampton Court branch should be re-electrified, so that at a stroke the majority of trains using that line are AC units.

South of Basingstoke, to avoid continual 'bustitution' from Basingstoke to Southampton I'd electrify the line to Salisbury at 25kv AC. Any 158s and 159s used on local services terminating at Salisbury could either remain with SWT to lengthen West of England services, be used for a regular Exeter - Axminster local service (pending infrastructure improvements), or could be sent to Northern possibly to cascade the 155s and 156s elsewhere.

The Laverstock Loop should be electrified as well along with the line from Laverstock South Jn to Southampton. If the line from Romsey to Eastleigh were electrified as well, then Salisbury - Romsey via Eastleigh local services could later be operated using EMUs. Alternatively, pending electrification of the line east of Southampton Tunnel, the service could temporarily be split in two, with seperate Salisbury - Southampton and Romsey - Eastleigh portions.

Effectively, XC and services to Southampton Central and beyond could be diverted along the newly electrified line. The rest of the SWML to Weymouth would be electrified in stages.

Next, the Portsmouth Direct line from Guildford to Portsmouth Harbour should be re-electrified. First, the direct line from Woking via Worplesdon would be re-electrified, then the line via Cobham, with trains diverted over one while the other was re-electrified. Simultaneously, the line from Eastleigh to Fareham should be double-tracked as far as the single-bore tunnel north of Fareham, to allow for any Portsmouth Direct services to be routed that way.

Afterwards, the line from Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton should be re-electrified, with Cardiff - Portsmouth and Portsmouth Harbour - Southampton services running via Eastleigh. The 450s typically used on this line can be converted to AC operation without any problems. An immediate candidate for electrification are the unelectrified sections of the North Downs line (Wokingham to North Camp, and Shalford Junction to Reigate. Management of the line would be transferred to SWT.

Eventually, the rest of the SWT surburban network would be re-electrified piecemeal. Ideally, the line from Clapham Junction to Reading and Windsor to Eton Riverside would be re-electrified first, with the remaining lines following soon afterwards. However, I accept that re-electrification is probably a non-started given the costs and disruption involved.

Former South Central division

Somewhat more problematic is the West Coastway line, since re-electrification of this line would be very disruptive. Of higher priority is the Brighton Main Line due to its greater traffic volume. To minimise disruption, I suggest at the bare minimum that the Uckfield branch should be electrified at 25kv AC, and the 'missing link' from Uckfield to Lewes should be rebuilt and electrified at 25kv AC with trains reversing at Lewes. Preferably, all of the recommendations included in the Brighton Main Line 2 plan (http://www.bml2.co.uk/) should be implemented to allow for the maximum service level to be maintained while the BML is re-electrified. For the time being, services via the chord onto the West Coastway would be worked by dual voltage 377s. A lower priority route is the Arun Valley line which should be fairly easy to re-electrify due to the lack of tunnels.

Following onthe East Coastway line along with the branch to Newhaven should be re-electrified. Since the 313/2s used on East and West Coastway services would probably be life-expired I suggest that the 379s used on Stansted Express services, upon being replaced by newer units, should be cascaded to Southern to replace the 313/2s and strengthen existing services. Other than that since converting all 377s to dual voltage units should be fairly easy no new rolling stock will need to be ordered.

I haven't covered the South Eastern region for the time being since I don't have the time.
 
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LE Greys

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Well, for South Eastern, the obvious place to start would be Ashford, covering the lines out to Dover and Ramsgate, worked by 6-JAVs. Then work west to Ebbsfleet. The next stages would be to work backwards to Charing Cross and Victoria. Then over from Ashford to Redhill, and down to Hastings. Then start the filling-in process. Also do the ELL, to connect to the newly-overhead NLL.
 

ajdunlop

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I've been wandering this myself. Will seem ridiculous having XC services being DMU when so much of the route is electrified (after GWML is wired). However would a cheaper option not be to fill in the gaps (reading-Basingstoke and cov-Oxford) with overhead and fit a shoe for the 3rd rail parts. It's been down before and worked. Then gradually your ideas for changing the 3rd rail area could be done later. However given that Voyagers do the birm to Scotland services now 100% under wires I don't think daft have the sane prioorities as us.
 

Aictos

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London Waterloo to Exeter Central should be electrified on the 3rd rail but at the same time electrify Exeter Central to Taunton via Exeter St Davids on the 25kV OHL.

There is method to my madness, it's better for the SWT services to terminate in the bay platform at Central simply because it means it doesn't have to use up capacity at St Davids, all that is needed is the ability to top up the water tanks for the toilets as by using the 444s there is no need to have fuel bowsers in New Yard if there are any.

Drayton Park is electrified on both AC and DC which works fine.

Once the 444s transfer to the West of England route, the 158s/159s can transfer to EMT and Northern.
 

jopsuk

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Also do the ELL, to connect to the newly-overhead NLL.

This is one that mystifies me. Surly there's enough clearence through the tunnel on the ELL for at least a solid-rail OHL system? Why wasn't the line electrified at 25kV with changeover to 3rd Rail at New Cross Gate?
 

cle

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I think the SWML would be a good one - it's nice and straight, and could easily hit 125mph for some long stretches on the fast lines.

But Coventry - Oxford (with doubling the line via Kenilworth and new station) would release the Newcastle - Reading service to EMU. It would have to abandon the Southampton extensions for a while.

And Basingstoke - Reading would free some DMUs too.

If Basingstoke - Southampton was done before Waterloo - Basingstoke, following on from Reading for the XC services, you could also run Paddington - Southampton EMUs until the SWML was fully done. I imagine Clapham Junction would be tricky!
 

LE Greys

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There'd still be a big gap from Birmingham to Doncaster though

Assuming they're sensible when they electrify the MML (whenever that is) all we'll have is Birmingham to Derby, because they will have already done the lines to Doncaster and Fitzwilliam from Sheffield. This also makes the case for some of the local lines around Birmingham.
 

tbtc

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Assuming they're sensible when they electrify the MML (whenever that is) all we'll have is Birmingham to Derby, because they will have already done the lines to Doncaster and Fitzwilliam from Sheffield. This also makes the case for some of the local lines around Birmingham.

I agree, and I think that the MML electrification needs to also include...

  • Birmingham - Derby
  • Derby - Nottingham
  • Sheffield - Doncaster
  • Swinton - Moorthorpe
  • Leeds - York

...if it is to make sense. Plus then there's enhanced case for electrifying lines through Harrogate, Barnsley etc too.

There are a lot of DMUs which could be freed up if we electrified the MML and the remaining gaps in the XC network. The problem is how to tackle this.

As for the Southern region (to go back on topic), I don't see the need for anything over 100mph on the currently electrified lines. Any increased top speed would just create differentials which would mean that the current efficient use of lines wouldn't work so well (look at how many trains they squeeze through Redhill - East Croydon, as an example, which is possible as they all have the same top speed)
 

cle

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There'd still be a big gap from Birmingham to Doncaster though

Oh yeah - duh! Maybe they could swap it for a Southampton/Reading - Manchester service, and a Bournemouth - North East service?

But I think they'd want their Manchester service more.
 

Chris125

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This is one that mystifies me. Surly there's enough clearence through the tunnel on the ELL for at least a solid-rail OHL system? Why wasn't the line electrified at 25kV with changeover to 3rd Rail at New Cross Gate?

...because it wasnt neccesary. 25kv is preferred to 3rd rail, but not in any situation at any cost and you certainly dont want to have trains switching from one to the other if you can avoid it.

Chris
 

Harbon 1

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I think the best option for them is to keep the slow moving london area equiped with 3rd rail, and put up ohle on the faster routes. They would have to have a huge budget to put ohle over Clapham Junction and around the terminuses!
 

cle

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Chiltern is an obvious one as well, especially for the Birmingham routes.

Although the Amersham and Aylesbury journey times are pretty poor, and so wires would help there. The new S stocks will have much better acceleration than the 165s! But I guess the 172s are decent.

And Oxford would be wired by then, so it'd make sense to have Oxford - Bicester wired, as hopefully it'd make sense to continue this to Bletchley! :)
 

LE Greys

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Chiltern is an obvious one as well, especially for the Birmingham routes.

Although the Amersham and Aylesbury journey times are pretty poor, and so wires would help there. The new S stocks will have much better acceleration than the 165s! But I guess the 172s are decent.

And Oxford would be wired by then, so it'd make sense to have Oxford - Bicester wired, as hopefully it'd make sense to continue this to Bletchley! :)

I'd think about putting pans on the S-Stock, which I'm sure are capable of being retrofitted with them. Harrow-on-the-Hill would be the changeover point, with the lines up to Watford and Amersham re-electrified with OHLE. The Uxbridge Branch could stay 4-rail. This opens up the possibility of extending the Met's Amersham service to Aylesbury if the current Chiltern Aylesbury service extends towards Quainton Road and Bletchley/Milton Keynes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree, and I think that the MML electrification needs to also include...

  • Birmingham - Derby
  • Derby - Nottingham
  • Sheffield - Doncaster
  • Swinton - Moorthorpe
  • Leeds - York

...if it is to make sense. Plus then there's enhanced case for electrifying lines through Harrogate, Barnsley etc too.

There are a lot of DMUs which could be freed up if we electrified the MML and the remaining gaps in the XC network. The problem is how to tackle this.

As for the Southern region (to go back on topic), I don't see the need for anything over 100mph on the currently electrified lines. Any increased top speed would just create differentials which would mean that the current efficient use of lines wouldn't work so well (look at how many trains they squeeze through Redhill - East Croydon, as an example, which is possible as they all have the same top speed)

That's actually 90, although 100 has been done a few times, in particular the record run from London Bridge. Getting that up to a universal 100, and perhaps the same for the Kent Coast routes, would be a good idea. The sections which need 125 are all on the South Western. Eastleigh-Worting Junction is obvious, it already has Voyagers on the XCs. Wimbledon-Basingstoke, with speed restrictions at the Woking junctions, would be next on the list. Westwards from Southampton, it would take a lot of work to get regular speeds of 100, let alone 125. The Portsmouth Direct would be another 100 target, as would Basingstoke-Exeter, if it is ever re-dualled for the whole length.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh yes, and I agree 100% about the Sheffield area. The whole West Riding should be done when they do the MML, certainly everything in what was once SYPTE and WYPTE.
 

ushawk

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I still disagree with re-electrifying stretches when other areas still need electrifying, maybe afterwards.

Basingstoke - Reading should be OHLE. The "Romsey 6" should be 3rd rail. Basingstoke to Salisbury 3rd Rail then onwards to Exeter OHLE. North Downs to be 3rd rail (just in-filling sections there). Marshlink and Uckfield lines also 3rd rail so existing Southern trains can be extended.

In the London area, GOBLIN should be OHLE as well as the Chiltern route to Birmingham (and after Evergreen 3 to Oxford) but the route to Aylesbury should be OHLE as far as Amersham, then use LUL 3rd rail into Marylebone.
 

cle

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I don't understand why if Basingstoke to Salisbury should be 3rd rail, but then OHLE to Exeter? Surely 3rd rail all the way to Exeter?
 

yorksrob

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Having read the article, it appears that one of the main reasons for such a change to overhead mentioned was it's performance at speeds of over 90mph, but really very few trains on the Southern must be able to get faster than that on the current infrastructure anyway !

I can't see how this can be a priority by any stretch of the imagination. Another reason mooted was the inefficiency of DC, but surely the myriad of diesel routes outside the South East are even more inefficient.

I don't see how such a project can even make it onto the list, let alone a priority.
 

Via Bank

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It should be a long-term goal, yes, but only once most of the other mainlines have been electrified.
 

yorksrob

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I'd put it well behind a large number of re-openings and a high speed network as well.
 

cle

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Yep, although third rail should eventually be phased out, especially for high speed and long distance journeys. The SWML should be a particular priority for this, and so should Brighton.
 

Minstral25

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Can't quite understand why we want to spend billions on replacing a perfectly adequate electrification system. Yes it is a bit duff with Ice but very good in high winds. Aren't the 444's on South West already capable of 100mph along most of their route?

Surely a bit of investment in technology would develop methods of doing 125mph on third rail and be much cheaper than replacement with overhead. Just a thought

As far as extending in Exeter direction - surely keeping it all 3rd rail would be sensible as the majority of the trains are coming from London which is third rail equipped - better than carrying around extra transformers down to Exeter for third rail and overhead.
 

Drsatan

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Yep, although third rail should eventually be phased out, especially for high speed and long distance journeys. The SWML should be a particular priority for this, and so should Brighton.

Yes, that's definitely true. If Britain's going to experience more severe winters thanks to global warming then 3rd rail electrification isn't ideal especially if the snow on the ground is higher than the third rail. However, one problem is trying to fit the catenary through the tunnels on the BML and SWML, although now that the trackbed has been lowered in Southampton tunnel and Wallers Ash tunnel to W9 gauge this shouldn't be too difficult.

Can't quite understand why we want to spend billions on replacing a perfectly adequate electrification system. Yes it is a bit duff with Ice but very good in high winds. Aren't the 444's on South West already capable of 100mph along most of their route?

Surely a bit of investment in technology would develop methods of doing 125mph on third rail and be much cheaper than replacement with overhead. Just a thought

As far as extending in Exeter direction - surely keeping it all 3rd rail would be sensible as the majority of the trains are coming from London which is third rail equipped - better than carrying around extra transformers down to Exeter for third rail and overhead.


444s and 450s can reach 100mph but their acceleration is limited, since allegedly all drivers have been told to only open the throttle to 65%. This is supposedly to prevent adjacent trains from losing power due to a sudden reduction in traction current.

Wouldn't you think 25KV AC is a superior system simply because 3rd rail trains are limited to 100mph to avoid damage to the collection shoes, regardless of the cost of 25KV AC electrification?

Since the 444s and 450s are dual voltage anyway I imagine that if the Exeter line is electrified 444s will be used on the majority of services. Electrifying the line at 25KV AC is effectively future proof because when the GWML is finally electrified down to Plymouth AC powered locomotives and EMUs can operate on both lines.
 

tom1649

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Yes, that's definitely true. If Britain's going to experience more severe winters thanks to global warming then 3rd rail electrification isn't ideal especially if the snow on the ground is higher than the third rail. However, one problem is trying to fit the catenary through the tunnels on the BML and SWML, although now that the trackbed has been lowered in Southampton tunnel and Wallers Ash tunnel to W9 gauge this shouldn't be too difficult.

Of course you'd always need dual voltage rolling stock for trains into Moorgate as there isn't sufficient tunnel clearance for the OHLE. Same could be said for Merseyrail, but that's a long way from the Southern Region so perhaps off topic.
 

Minstral25

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Yes, that's definitely true. If Britain's going to experience more severe winters thanks to global warming then 3rd rail electrification isn't ideal especially if the snow on the ground is higher than the third rail. However, one problem is trying to fit the catenary through the tunnels on the BML and SWML, although now that the trackbed has been lowered in Southampton tunnel and Wallers Ash tunnel to W9 gauge this shouldn't be too difficult.




444s and 450s can reach 100mph but their acceleration is limited, since allegedly all drivers have been told to only open the throttle to 65%. This is supposedly to prevent adjacent trains from losing power due to a sudden reduction in traction current.

Wouldn't you think 25KV AC is a superior system simply because 3rd rail trains are limited to 100mph to avoid damage to the collection shoes, regardless of the cost of 25KV AC electrification?

Since the 444s and 450s are dual voltage anyway I imagine that if the Exeter line is electrified 444s will be used on the majority of services. Electrifying the line at 25KV AC is effectively future proof because when the GWML is finally electrified down to Plymouth AC powered locomotives and EMUs can operate on both lines.

You are talking Billions of pounds to convert - my question is it really worth it. And there are far more maintenance issues with 25kV in hot and windy conditions - how often do you hear that the third rail has blown down but it is regular on the electrified lines causing massive delays. Let us remember that stronger winds are also part of global warming and we live in an exposed island.

When we had the snow last year the problems were severe but there would still have been major delays even if it was 25kV overhead as the conditions were severe.

I do see the argument if there is electrification to Plymouth for the line from Basingstoke to Exeter to be 25kV overhead. However at that point all Exeter trains should be diverted to Reading and Paddington to save having dual units as there really is no justification to replace the system into Waterloo due to costs. Hence to keep current services running third rail would be better.

The 100mph limit is an issue currently but why not invest a few million in working out how to do third rail at 125mph - it is surely a technology issue only.

Lastly dual units are getting better (and do I hope the new Thameslink units work brilliantly) but they do suffer from failures still. I dread to think how many services will be cancelled should a unit fail when Thameslink is fully running. There is severe operation risk if the core closes for any reason as trains should be going through at around 1 each way every 2 and a bit minutes on very very tight timetable.
 

Drsatan

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You are talking Billions of pounds to convert - my question is it really worth it. And there are far more maintenance issues with 25kV in hot and windy conditions - how often do you hear that the third rail has blown down but it is regular on the electrified lines causing massive delays. Let us remember that stronger winds are also part of global warming and we live in an exposed island.

When we had the snow last year the problems were severe but there would still have been major delays even if it was 25kV overhead as the conditions were severe.

What I wrote about re-electrifying the former Southern Region lines at 25kv AC was basically hypothetical. I know it will take years to do, and I know that it will cost billions, which is why it's a long term project and should only be undertaken gradually.

In fairness the wiring on the ECML is liable to be blown down but that's because to save money, the OHL stanchions were placed the maximum possible distance from each other. A more robust catenary design wouldn't suffer from those problems.
 

route:oxford

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And Oxford would be wired by then, so it'd make sense to have Oxford - Bicester wired, as hopefully it'd make sense to continue this to Bletchley! :)

Only needed as far as Claydon.

According to the HS2 plans, there is a spur off at Claydon following the old E-W to Bletchley leading to a depot and access to the WCML.
 

yorksrob

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What I wrote about re-electrifying the former Southern Region lines at 25kv AC was basically hypothetical. I know it will take years to do, and I know that it will cost billions, which is why it's a long term project and should only be undertaken gradually.

In fairness the wiring on the ECML is liable to be blown down but that's because to save money, the OHL stanchions were placed the maximum possible distance from each other. A more robust catenary design wouldn't suffer from those problems.

Although 25kv AC is undoubtedly the better system in itself, I'm afraid that I find it hard to envisage any situation in which it will ever be a worthwhile use of resources to re-electrify the whole of the Southern. The whole geography and layout of the region makes it unlikely that speeds in excess of 100mph would be routinely reached on any part of the classic network, other than perhaps part of the mainline to Basingstoke.

Maintaining the network is very much like painting the Fourth Bridge. There will always be far more urgent work for money to be spent on, as well as upgrades which would genuinely provide more capacity, rather than replacing a working electrification system. The fact that dual voltage trains are very much the norm now makes a conversion even less worthwhile.
 

LE Greys

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Although 25kv AC is undoubtedly the better system in itself, I'm afraid that I find it hard to envisage any situation in which it will ever be a worthwhile use of resources to re-electrify the whole of the Southern. The whole geography and layout of the region makes it unlikely that speeds in excess of 100mph would be routinely reached on any part of the classic network, other than perhaps part of the mainline to Basingstoke.

Maintaining the network is very much like painting the Fourth Bridge. There will always be far more urgent work for money to be spent on, as well as upgrades which would genuinely provide more capacity, rather than replacing a working electrification system. The fact that dual voltage trains are very much the norm now makes a conversion even less worthwhile.

The bits I'd do first, Basingstoke-Southampton-Weymouth, are effectively self-contained, have a location that might work for a changeover section (the run down to Worting Junction is probably long enough for a changeover on the move) and might have 125mph electric stock on them in a few years, although that depends on Voyager modification. I think they wanted to re-electrify that with OHL when they extended to Weymouth, but decided against it.
 

yorksrob

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The bits I'd do first, Basingstoke-Southampton-Weymouth, are effectively self-contained, have a location that might work for a changeover section (the run down to Worting Junction is probably long enough for a changeover on the move) and might have 125mph electric stock on them in a few years, although that depends on Voyager modification. I think they wanted to re-electrify that with OHL when they extended to Weymouth, but decided against it.

The problem I would forsee with that section would be that you have a lot of smaller stations on double track, which would presumably make it very difficult to operate services faster than the current higher speeds on the classic Southern network along side the stoppers. Of the quadruple track sections approaching London from the South, I would have thought that the only section long enough with enough capacity for high speed running would be the Woking - Basingstoke section.
 
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