Southern Region Unit "codes" Query...

[61653 HTAFC]

A thought which was prompted by the 458/4 project thread, but which would be off-topic there...

Older BR units on the Southern Region were often identified by type codes such as 4-COR, 4-VEP, 2-HAL and so on. As I understand it the meaning of these codes was somewhat arbitrary, in some cases referring to technical features (4-EPB = Electro-Pneumatic Brake) and some to "above the solebar" features (2-HAL = Half-Lavatory = a lavatory in one of the two cars).

I recall reading somewhere (possibly magazines, possibly Platform 5 books) that the 458s (as built) were given the SR-style designation of 4-JOP (presumably referencing them being part of Alstom's Juniper family) and that the 444s and 450s were 5-DES and 4-DES respectively. I also recall seeing the 442s listed as 5-WES in the Platform 5 books. I have a few questions on these designations given to newer units:

Firstly, how "official" were these designations on the newer units? Were they used internally by crews, planners, fitters etc.? Or were they in fact the invention of enthusiasts and/or publishers?

Secondly, did the 455s and 456s ever have this type of designation given to them? It always struck me as odd that some units were widely known by enthusiasts by their three-letter-codes (or 2 in the case of the 4-TC and 4-DD) whilst others weren't. Similarly do the Electrostars have such a designation, official or otherwise?

I know we have a few very knowledgeable members who work on the former Southern Region, so hopefully someone will be able to help!

(Also I apologise in advance if I've asked the same question years ago and completely forgotten about it since. I don't think I have and nothing came up when I searched, but you never know...!)

 

[Big Jumby 74]

From the planning side 458's were always known (and issued on paper) as '458's. I use to hear the term JOP banded around by a few, but it was never used in planning (Carriage workings) AFAIR. Someone will prove me wrong now, but certainly never used that term myself in all the years I diagrammed them - from new until post 458/5 conversion.
444 & 450 always diagrammed as said such. Only ever heard the term DES on here tbh.
442's on the other hand were diagrammed on paper as '5 (or 10) WES' for a time, but if I recall correctly the term '5-(or 10) 442' was also used at other times, but never mixed together in any one Carriage Working timetable period if you follow.

455, 456 (& 508) only ever diagrammed on paper by their numerical description, as here. To my recollection never heard of them being known by any other term.

377's were long after my time on Central, but from what I remember of seeing their documents (CWN's) '377' was the order of the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

A further update ref 442's:

IIRC these were referred to in planning parlance as 'Wes' on paper from introduction (1988), which made sense with most stock still being referred to by their old school 'names', until the end of 2004, when the slam door stock was removed completely from the plan (except the 2 x 3 Cig on Lymington duties). Although I do not have any CWN's from Dec 2004 until Dec 2006 inclusive, I believe this may have been the period when the term '442' replaced 'Wes' in planning (CWN) circles, to come in line with the move away from the old slam door type terminology.

 

[Snow1964]

I think officially started to use class numbers in mid / late 1970s, but only for new stock

For over a decade that was only really relevant to 508s and 455s
Then in late 1980s got 456 and 442
Then the networkers 465 and 466 arrived beginning of 1990s

I think the names 5-WES, 4-JOP etc were unofficial by those used to old names, and as stated earlier by Big Jumby 74 the old names lingered on until the mass withdrawal of remaining slam door stock in 2001-2004

 

[43096]

I think officially started to use class numbers in mid / late 1970s, but only for new stock

For over a decade that was only really relevant to 508s and 455s
Then in late 1980s got 456 and 442
Then the networkers 465 and 466 arrived beginning of 1990s

I think the names 5-WES, 4-JOP etc were unofficial by those used to old names, and as stated earlier by Big Jumby 74 the old names lingered on until the mass withdrawal of remaining slam door stock in 2001-2004

JOP (Juniper Outer-suburban Porterbrook) was official enough that “4 JOP” was on the vehicle data panels.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Older BR units on the Southern Region were often identified by type codes such as 4-COR, 4-VEP, 2-HAL and so on. As I understand it the meaning of these codes was somewhat arbitrary, in some cases referring to technical features (4-EPB = Electro-Pneumatic Brake) and some to "above the solebar" features (2-HAL = Half-Lavatory = a lavatory in one of the two cars).

I always liked the codes for the ex LT Standard Stock on the IOW - 4VEC and 3 TIS. Vectis being the Roman name for the island.

 

[hexagon789]

The Southern Region Electric Group lists traditional SR codes for the 444, 450, 455, 458, 460 and 508 but notes in each case that they were only proposed but never used officially.

 

[swt_passenger]

As an indication of normal day to day usage, the oldest SWT carriage working notice I have is from May 2004, and at that time although various CIG and VEP formations were still around and described that way, all the more modern units including the 442s, 455s and 458s are only shown just as they’d be seen today. IE 20 years ago they were already not using 5WES, 4JOP etc etc in CWNs. I always thought the former SR codes were more of an enthusiast thing. Desiros never seem to have been referenced as “DES” in either that or later CWN’s.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

the oldest SWT carriage working notice I have is from May 2004, and at that time although various CIG and VEP formations were still around, all the more modern units including the 442s, 455s and 458s are only shown as they’d be seen today.

Exactly so. As touched on above (with the caveat of my slightly faded grey cells etc) my thinking was that the 'WES' to '442' switch, in CWN printed terms, may have been with the Dec 2004 change, but I am happy to accept what you say, in that the switch was done at an earlier TT change (May 2004, if not earlier perhaps?).
In respect of 458's, they were never referred to as 'JOP' in the official CWN's as far as I recall. I do meet up with my peers (stock planners amongst others), and will ask them about that, given we were all involved throughout the period in question.
Certain other departments (Control, Fleet side etc) may well have used the term 'JOP' in some of their own bespoke internal (to function) documents*, I don't know, but planning (CWN) wise, it was always '458' AFAIR.

* (I might add, thanks to a-another on this site, who has shared privately some CWN detail, it is apparent that some of this material doing the 'on-line' rounds, is not original Train Planning documentation, but is from other documents produced by other Departments for their own internal use, which may be where some confusion/differing views come in to the discussion? In addition, many of the enthusiast related publications may well have been compiled by authors who had connections with those departments, which this far down the line, can distort the facts in relation to official (Train Planning/CWN) documentation at the time. Not a criticism in any way on my part as an ex planner from the time in question, more just an observation that may explain the differing views on the subject ).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Southern Region Electric Group lists traditional SR codes for the 444, 450, 455, 458, 460 and 508 but notes in each case that they were only proposed but never used officially.

If you don't mind me asking, what were these codes in the case of the 455 and 508? 458 was 4-JOP and 460 was 8-GAT I believe. 4-PEP would work for the 508s, though that would clash with the prototype PEP units.

Also, many thanks to those who have contributed so far.

 

[hexagon789]

If you don't mind me asking, what were these codes in the case of the 455 and 508?

Listed as 4HIT for the 455 and 4PER for the 508.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Listed as 4HIT for the 455 and 4PER for the 508.

Thanks. Lucky the 455s weren't 5-car units then...

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks. Lucky the 455s weren't 5-car units then...

You've heard of the 4SS nickname for them?

 

[D7666]

Listed as 4HIT for the 455

There was a joke about 455 and 4Hit at the time.

Without going into who or when 4Hit was used as a code, Allegedly Hit was supposed to mean "hi"gh density "t"ightlock (avoiding the obvious 4hit alternative rendering).

When 455s were new they were (still are to a certain extent) notorious poor brake performers, over running platforms and signals.

One contemporary wit pointed out BR block working bell code 4-5-5 = train running away right line - which is exactly the right bell in an overrun that ran into the next absolute block section.

 

[D6130]

There was a joke about 455 and 4Hit at the time.

Just as well they weren't five car units then!

EDIT: Apologies....another one that I now see has already been posted upthread! It's getting late here in Italy and a fair amount of red wine has gone down the hatch. "Time for bed" said Zebidee!

 

[D7666]

I have half an idea 4hit was nothing more than a wind up but in a semi official sense in that period Waterloo General Offices had a very very high proportion of cranks at all grades some of who were in senior positions to write or sign off official documents.

The term Pig for 442 was banded about Waterloo in internal matters until a diktat from on high halted it.

 

[D6130]

The term Pig for 442 was banded about Waterloo in internal matters until a diktat from on high halted it.

Indeed....from CEWG himself, IIRC.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The term Pig for 442 was banded about

Don't forget the 'Plastic'....... I remember a driver from a certain Dorset depot showing me a badge that he'd either acquired, which represented the 'theme' in question, if you get me, or may be had it made??? I know a number of bespoke lapel badges and such have been produced over the years (about other themes, not 442 related), most IIRC based on matters pertaining to Wombleland, or at least those are the ones I remember.

 

[Belperpete]

I seem to recall the code SOD being used for the first Sliding Opening Door stock? Although the term was also used in a derogatory way, as I seem to recall they had "issues".