Southern Services from December

[MidnightFlyer]

From December 2010 (proposed):
Clapham H St-Ealing Broadway using 171's
Two extra fasts per hour Vic-Brighton
Later regular services in South London
Addition Gat Ex extensions to Brighton (on 460's)
Better Sunday services in South London and Uckfield etc
More late night trains Brighton-Worthing
Better journey times London-Burgess Hill, preston Park etc

Cool

More (and sourced) from latest Railway Herald

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This looks overall a very good package; interesting that they have managed to squeeze two extra fast paths out of the Brighton Line - I'm wondering how they managed that?

But the bit about the Gatwick services really catches my eye: In other words, the transfer of the 460s to SWT is officially off which in turn means the 460 lease to Southern has been renewed ( probably on more favourable terms?? ) which, in turn, I guess means the reforming of the 458s is also cancelled?

 

[DjU]

But the bit about the Gatwick services really catches my eye: In other words, the transfer of the 460s to SWT is officially off which in turn means the 460 lease to Southern has been renewed ( probably on more favourable terms?? ) which, in turn, I guess means the reforming of the 458s is also cancelled?

Roger Ford's latest Informed Sources hints that the 458/460 scheme is likely to survive the Spending Review.

 

[swt_passenger]

This looks overall a very good package; interesting that they have managed to squeeze two extra fast paths out of the Brighton Line - I'm wondering how they managed that?

But the bit about the Gatwick services really catches my eye: In other words, the transfer of the 460s to SWT is officially off which in turn means the 460 lease to Southern has been renewed ( probably on more favourable terms?? ) which, in turn, I guess means the reforming of the 458s is also cancelled?

Another possible interpretation is that they need to keep a couple of 460s because the Wessie's aren't going to be ready in time...

The missing service improvement required by the new franchise is the hourly Southampton Airport, as I suggested a week or two back it appears to have been binned by NR in favour of XC's service extensions.

Although SN do get to call at the airport with the existing two trains per day via Eastleigh. Big deal eh...

 

[David Dunning]

Does anyone really use the train to catch the plane at Southampton Airport parkway ?
I mean is there really enough traffic to places like Fareham , Havant and Chichester to make the Southern plan worthwhile . Id be interested in what people think . My own experiences of Soton Airport Parkway is that it's the parkway bit that attracts the business not the airport . I can remember when only the 92 called there in the 70s and 80s .. once an hour. Without the car park would it not have become another tees valley situation ??

 

[Minstral25]

I met with the Southern Managers at London Bridge Last week and they confirmed 7 extra 442's from December but the 460's are going, so that sounds like a typo. They also stated they would have I think 19 313's to allow more stock in London (i.e. 377/3's).

All the above sounds excellent for passengers in London and East Grinstead, plus south of Gatwick but it looks like us guys in the middle on Redhill/Reigate/Tonbridge and Horsham services are yet again going to see slower, more overcrowded and more often delayed services on trains of the same length. Notice every route but us are going to improved again!

Actually guess the travellers on the south coast won't be too please either with their "new" trains

 

[thefab444]

The stopping pattern of the new Victoria - Brighton services is odd...

• xx06 calls at CLJ, ECR, BTN
• xx21 calls at ECR, GTW, HSK, BTN
• xx36 calls at CLJ, ECR, BTN
• xx51 calls at ECR, GTW, BUG, BTN

The existing xx21 stopping service appears to have been axed. The xx17 VIC - LIT services cover stops at Preston Park and Wivelsfield, the latter reduced to an hourly service to/from Victoria.

Gatwick Express (off-peak at least) seems unchanged. During the peak, 1630 VIC - GTW appears to have been axed.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Thanks MattE. Are any details of the proposed changes to Sunday services in South London available yet? I don't know if Peter Mugridge will agree, but the half hourly Sunday Dorking (DKG) -> Victoria (VIC) services (which stop at all stations between DKG and Balham) are usually pretty full by Sutton (SUO) and standing by Mitcham Eastfields.

It would be nice if they could run the DKG -> VIC services fast from SUO to CLJ (as they do off peak Mon-Sat) and then provide a stopping service from Epsom or SUO to cater for pax from Carshalton, Hackbridge and the Mitchams.

Any chance of a Sunday service on the Epsom Downs branch line? (Even if it was a two car class 456 running as an hourly shuttle from Sutton.)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I do agree that the Sunday suburbans are pretty busy and that boosting the service to match the Saturday one would be worthwhile.

Further, unless they've stopped doing this now, SWT usually run a Saturday style service on a bank holiday; Southern run a Sunday style. I would consider that bank holidays should by default have Saturday style timetables as more people will be travelling than on Sundays.

And given the number of 377s running suburban services, I wonder if Southern could jiggle the diagrams around a bit to ensure that all their Victoria to Dorking / Horsham via Epsom services are formed of 377s? This would then allow Southern to introduce a first class fare along that route.

This would cost them absolutely nothing as they are already using the 377s on many suburban routes, mixed in with 455s. All they have to do is diagram 377s for all those on the specific route. Then it only takes one person to buy a first class ticket on that route and they have made a profit. Given that this is a prime outer suburban route I am sure there would be a reasonable demand for first class along it.

Extra revenue for no outlay.

 

[cjohnson]

According to Railway Herald these proposals have been submitted to ORR - is anything available on ORR's website? I couldn't see anything on the proposals/consultations page.

 

[SussexSpotter]

This looks overall a very good package; interesting that they have managed to squeeze two extra fast paths out of the Brighton Line - I'm wondering how they managed that?

 

[jay jay]

I do agree that the Sunday suburbans are pretty busy and that boosting the service to match the Saturday one would be worthwhile.

Further, unless they've stopped doing this now, SWT usually run a Saturday style service on a bank holiday; Southern run a Sunday style. I would consider that bank holidays should by default have Saturday style timetables as more people will be travelling than on Sundays.

And given the number of 377s running suburban services, I wonder if Southern could jiggle the diagrams around a bit to ensure that all their Victoria to Dorking / Horsham via Epsom services are formed of 377s? This would then allow Southern to introduce a first class fare along that route.

This would cost them absolutely nothing as they are already using the 377s on many suburban routes, mixed in with 455s. All they have to do is diagram 377s for all those on the specific route. Then it only takes one person to buy a first class ticket on that route and they have made a profit. Given that this is a prime outer suburban route I am sure there would be a reasonable demand for first class along it.

Extra revenue for no outlay.

I recall the last few bank holidays that Southern have been operating a Saturday service too? Infact, they definitely were as Bank Holiday Monday in May we went to Normans Bay for a pub lunch and that station is closed on Sundays.

 

[thefab444]

It would be nice if they could run the DKG -> VIC services fast from SUO to CLJ (as they do off peak Mon-Sat) and then provide a stopping service from Epsom or SUO to cater for pax from Carshalton, Hackbridge and the Mitchams.

As far as I can tell, these are some of the changes on Sundays from December:

A new half hourly VIC - EPS service calling at Clapham Junction and Balham then all stations, and the existing half hourly VIC - DKG is retained calling at all stations. Whilst that doesn't really improve things speed wise for passengers beyond Epsom, it does provide four trains per hour for the intermediate stations, an improvement especially for the Mitchams, Hackbridge and Carshalton which aren't served by FCC on Sundays.

Instead of an alternating London Bridge - Caterham or Tattenham Corner half hourly service, there will now be 2tph LBG - TAT, and 2tph VIC - CAT. South Croydon and Purley Oaks will still only get 2tph though.

The Victoria - Horsham service is diverted to run out of London Bridge, although the Victoria - Bognor Regis service remains. The Victoria - East Grinstead service runs in the path of the VIC - HRH service. Merstham and Coulsdon South still have just 1tph, although this may increase to 2tph between May and September if the summer only LBG - TON services return.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

I recall the last few bank holidays that Southern have been operating a Saturday service too? Infact, they definitely were as Bank Holiday Monday in May we went to Normans Bay for a pub lunch and that station is closed on Sundays.

Yes, Southern certainly ran a Saturday service on the late May bank holiday this year. See http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/May_2010/sn.html .

 

[swt_passenger]

According to Railway Herald these proposals have been submitted to ORR - is anything available on ORR's website? I couldn't see anything on the proposals/consultations page.

Railway Herald are not accounting for the fact that 'non-contentious' applications are delegated to Network Rail and then passed to ORR done and dusted. Although the same paperwork is used the application is effectively dealt with completely by NR, and all the details are on the NR current consulatations page.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does anyone really use the train to catch the plane at Southampton Airport parkway ?
I mean is there really enough traffic to places like Fareham , Havant and Chichester to make the Southern plan worthwhile . Id be interested in what people think . My own experiences of Soton Airport Parkway is that it's the parkway bit that attracts the business not the airport . I can remember when only the 92 called there in the 70s and 80s .. once an hour. Without the car park would it not have become another tees valley situation ??

I'd agree that the 'parkway' role generates the majority of peak time rail traffic, indeed they are making good progress now with the new multi story - so predictions must be looking up; but I'm not so sure off peak, I think air becomes a reasonable proportion. But who knows how much new traffic would be generated from the south coast if 'Southampton Airport' started showing up regularly on the PIS and announcements. ISTM that the airport is continually expanding from its original 'Channel Islands or else' role...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

PS I don't think the hourly Brighton - Southampton Sunday service has been mentioned much, but it has been the planners.

That should be a major improvement to west coastway travel.

 

[thefab444]

That should be a major improvement to west coastway travel.

It takes nigh-on two hours though, seeing as it is all stations from Chichester to Brighton.

 

[swt_passenger]

It takes nigh-on two hours though, seeing as it is all stations from Chichester to Brighton.

Will still be much easier than the current times with 20 min waiting at Fratton surely? Overall times of 2 hr 30 min are typical, 2 hr 50 if you change at Littlehampton and Fratton...

At the moment the FGW through service takes a bit of a hammering capacity wise, I think for many pax the SN service will be quite OK.

Also, a lot of staff I've spoken to believe that the Mon - Sat service generated a lot of new to rail travel - maybe it will on Sunday too?

 

[PhilipW]

Any sign of a Brighton-Southampton service on Sundays.

Currently there are two Havant-Southampton services per hour (Mon-Sat), one ex-Victoria and one ex-Brighton.

For some reason Southern seem to think that noone wants to travel on that route on Sundays. What odd logic is that ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Any sign of a Brighton-Southampton service on Sundays.

Currently there are two Havant-Southampton services per hour (Mon-Sat), one ex-Victoria and one ex-Brighton.

For some reason Southern seem to think that noone wants to travel on that route on Sundays. What odd logic is that ?

Er.. did you actually read the previous few posts?

The service you ask about was due to start from Dec 2010 as planned in the new franchise - therefore I just confirmed a few posts ago that it is in the journey planner and is about to start...

 

[PhilipW]

Er.. did you actually read the previous few posts?

The service you ask about was due to start from Dec 2010 as planned in the new franchise - therefore I just confirmed a few posts ago that it is in the journey planner and is about to start...

Sorry, I missed it. Good to hear that it is there.

I know there is a current fuss about Brighton-Portsmouth services to be operated by refurbished 313s (with no toilets).

Are the Brighton-Southampton services staying with 377s or can we look forward to no-toilet journies on that route too ?

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Just looking at the south London Sunday changes, I've been having a look through this document here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...s by train service code that are changing.pdf

I'm not 100% sure that I'm reading it correctly, but I think there'll be a new half hourly Epsom to Victoria service calling all stations via Mitcham Junc (judging by the timing) to supplement the existing half hourly Dorking to Victoria service. Again, just going by the timings, it looks like the ex Dorking services will retain the existing calling pattern north of Sutton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, I missed it. Good to hear that it is there.

I know there is a current fuss about Brighton-Portsmouth services to be operated by refurbished 313s (with no toilets).

Are the Brighton-Southampton services staying with 377s or can we look forward to no-toilet journies on that route too ?

My view is that it will be unlikely. There aren't enough 313s to turn the entire east and west coastway services over to 313s. In any case SN have issued a rebuttal to the RMT inspired press stories over the weekend, and state that at least two thirds of long distance services will remain 377s.

It's all covered in the other thread, but what they always intended to do was summarised in the leaflet announcing the stock, back in April or May.

passenger leaflet

Quote: "Ten more Class 313 trains will be introduced in time for the timetable
changes on 12 December 2010. Planning is still underway, but Class 313s are
expected to be used on some local Coastway services between Brighton, Worthing, Littlehampton and Portsmouth (not services to London)."

Don't forget that what the media describe as Portsmouth to Brighton for simplicity includes all the short workings like Bognor - Barnham, Bognor - Littlehampton, Brighton - West Worthing.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I met with the Southern Managers at London Bridge Last week and they confirmed 7 extra 442's from December but the 460's are going, so that sounds like a typo.

I don't think it is a typo. Surely they wouldn't need to apply to run 442s to Brighton, they already can and do. As I suggested in another reply, I reckon it'll be a temporary need while the 442s are finished in overhaul... Reminds me of how many final days there were for 442s in SWT hands...

OTOH they would need to apply to for track access rights for 460s to Brighton, as that would be a new use, although the corresponding vehicle change application for 460s to Brighton was made in early 2009...

 

[embers25]

Whilst it's true that 313's are not "supposed" to be reaching Southampton, Southern have added them to approved stock on that route. I'd reckon on Sundays where the Southampton service is the local from Chi-Brighton and there is less need for them elsewhere knowing Southern there is every chance they'll be regular "last minute" substitutions. Now thats also a REALLY long time without a toilet. Kind of like when AXC run from Brum to Plymouth with no functioning toilets or a trolley! However given the fact they are all stops from Chi-Brighton I'm not sure how much pressure they'll take off the few overcrowded fGW services which are much much faster and so will appeal more to day tripppers still due to their timings.

 

[JKJimar53]

With South London services being extended to operate until around 00:30 does this mean that there will be more late night services on the London Overground ELL

 

[bicbasher]

With South London services being extended to operate until around 00:30 does this mean that there will be more late night services on the London Overground ELL

According to a post on a local forum I use, the local society who attended the recent LOROL passengers group said that additional services may run to New Cross Gate to connect with the two final Southern services from London Bridge from December, but no further at present.

 

[dcmbarton]

(proposed):
Clapham H St-Ealing Broadway using 171's

I've just joined, so apologies if this is a ridiculous question!

This service caught my eye - on which line will it run? It seems an odd sort of route.

David

 

[Fincra5]

Via kengsington olympia The service keeps one junction (or something) in use, removes the need for the coach service which replaced XC services.

 

[thefab444]

Supposedly:
20:17 Clapham High Street - Ealing Broadway
21:12 Ealing Broadway - Clapham High Street

Can't find anything in the journey planners though.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Supposedly:
20:17 Clapham High Street - Ealing Broadway
21:12 Ealing Broadway - Clapham High Street

Can't find anything in the journey planners though.

Presumably the unit will run ECS to Clapham High Street from London Bridge having arrived there as an ex-Uckfield working?

 

[Ricardo]

Er.. did you actually read the previous few posts?

The service you ask about was due to start from Dec 2010 as planned in the new franchise - therefore I just confirmed a few posts ago that it is in the journey planner and is about to start...

The Soton-Brighton sunday services are definitely happening! It was a franchise commitment!

The sunday diagram (or at least a recent draft of it) crossed my desk a couple of weeks ago and it looks pretty good. I dont have it to hand at the moment, but from memory the first departure from Soton Central is at 0735ish (reasonably early for a sunday) and the service is hourly to Brighton until 2030ish, with two departures thereafter to Barnham/ Littlehampton. Last train is circa 2230ish, if my memory serves me correctly. Obviously coming from memory and the diagrams might still get tweaked a bit!

It is a little disappointing that the weekday/ saturday Brighton service will not be running via Southampton Airport (this was also a franchise commitment), but the six extra XC services to Southampton Central will arguably be of greater benefit, although I have concerns about their reliability, given the congestion in the Southampton area as it is!

There has been some very impressive patronage growth at stations in the Solent area over the last few years- was looking at this in detail a couple of weeks ago, and pax figures at Swanwick have increased from circa 300,000ish per annum to in excess of 500,000 pax per annum over the last 5 years. The extra Southern service from 2007 has surely helped. Pax numbers at Cosham have also been storming upwards of late, following a dip (as seen in all Portsmouth area stations) during the resignalling work in that area.

50+ % increases in patronage over the same period have been observed at some of the other stations in the area, and in general the Solent line and other South Hampshire stations are displaying impressive patronage growth, such that peak train loadings are very good. The 0852 arrival at Soton Central from Brighton verges on having pax in excess of capacity (3 car 377) and other arrivals into Soton from the east between 8 and 9 am are well-loaded. Patronage is also good going the other way (ie towards Fareham & Portsmouth) in the AM peak.

With the improved sunday service, I'm sure these increases will continue unabated, despite Southern's reliability not being all that great!

As far as 313s go, my understanding was that the original plan was for just one very early morning (prior to 7am) Southampton- Brighton weekday departure to be operated by a 313, but a bit of re-diagramming has apparently led to this being changed to a 377. Which means the lines west of the Portsmouth Triangle should normally be a 313-free zone- although I havent asked about the weekend plans.

Apparently about 1/3 of SN departures out of Portsmouth will be 313-operated.