Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[jon0844]

The Sevenoaks trains seem fairly well contained, and I'm not sure it's as common to see them swapping between the MML and ECML as much as they did.

A Sevenoaks train is likely easily identified by the egress panels being smashed. It has become such a problem that I doubt it's worth replacing them. You can ride a train that came from Sevenoaks (say picking it up from St Pancras to Hatfield) and as you walk through you'll see the floor covered in glass/perspex.

 

[Mikey C]

That’s presumably pretty much all the 8-cars then. The GN 700/0 fleet is no longer anywhere near as captive as it once was. In 2018/19 the GN units stayed put for many weeks, but in the last year or so this has pretty much come to an end.

I was surprised an 8 car would operate such a long service as Peterborough to Horsham, especially with the reduced frequency through the Thameslink Core yesterday.

Curiously I was on an 8 car train today, which had wifi and tables. I didn't think the 8 car trains had been upgraded like this?

 

[ctrh136]

I was surprised an 8 car would operate such a long service as Peterborough to Horsham, especially with the reduced frequency through the Thameslink Core yesterday.

Curiously I was on an 8 car train today, which had wifi and tables. I didn't think the 8 car trains had been upgraded like this?

I think it's only ones that got built with them. Same with the 12 car ones

 

[JonathanH]

Curiously I was on an 8 car train today, which had wifi and tables. I didn't think the 8 car trains had been upgraded like this?

700047 to 700060 are the 14 8-car 700s with WiFi and tables.

I was surprised an 8 car would operate such a long service as Peterborough to Horsham, especially with the reduced frequency through the Thameslink Core yesterday.

Not common, but they do get swapped onto Peterborough to Horsham services sometimes. Horsham sees more 8-car services now that the Sunday trains run to Bedford.

 

[jon0844]

You also get some 8 car services replaced with 12s. That can be most confusing, and even a big problems if the signaller forgets and tries to route one into some platforms at King's Cross!

 

[bramling]

I was surprised an 8 car would operate such a long service as Peterborough to Horsham, especially with the reduced frequency through the Thameslink Core yesterday.

Curiously I was on an 8 car train today, which had wifi and tables. I didn't think the 8 car trains had been upgraded like this?

No idea about tables, but certainly the later units have wi-fi.

Since May the GN 700/0 requirement has reduced from 8 to 4. This slack in the 700 fleet means 700/0s are more common on Peterborough to Horsham, and presumably Cambridge to Brighton (albeit less so, which seems to be partly because fewer diagrams start from Hornsey on this service). Pre May if a 700/1 wasn’t available then the diagram would likely have been simply cancelled. 8 cars is better than nothing I guess, but it does show how the 700 fleet isn’t performing as well in terms of availability as was originally hoped and trumpeted.

700047 to 700060 are the 14 8-car 700s with WiFi and tables.


Not common, but they do get swapped onto Peterborough to Horsham services sometimes. Horsham sees more 8-car services now that the Sunday trains run to Bedford.

I’d say it’s pretty common now. Indeed on the rare occasions the full timetable is operating it’s more uncommon not to have at least one 700/0 floating about on the Peterborough/Horsham route.

There’s also a booked run to Horsham and back in the evening, which is made up from one of the peak Peterborough extras. The rationale for this is presumably that 12 cars isn’t required that late at night, and it reduces the nuisance of a 12-car calling at Welwyn Garden City. They’d already made the Saturday night equivalent a 700/0 some while ago.

 

[david1212]

Clearly the DfT / Treasury / Government are not really concerned that in one way or another there has been significant disruption for over a year.

Thinking back to last year Saturday August 13th was a strike day.
On Friday 12th lunchime / early afternoon two consecutive GatEx Victoria Brighton trains were cancelled. I took a rammed Eastboune train to Gatwick Airport then changed to the next Thameslink which was busy. The latter was delayed further south, I can not now recall where, and turned out to be the last arrival in Brighton from the north for a couple of hours due to a track or signalling fault. The fault of course unrelated to train crew issues.

Looking at the timing of last week compared to this week the Victoria - Brighton trains run as Southern rather than GatEx had the same departure and arrival times even though stops were added at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

GTR are providing 70% of normal services, although that does vary by station, naturally.

The ongoing core issue is that GTR need so much overtime / rest day working to deliver the current full published timetable. The same old record but if back to 2019 they did not probably far fewer services would have been cancelled or altered over the last two weeks.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Looking at the timing of last week compared to this week the Victoria - Brighton trains run as Southern rather than GatEx had the same departure and arrival times even though stops were added at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

The up trains didn't, xx14 arrival compared with xx11. And those timings were only achiveable because there was so little congestion as there were practically no other trains running.

 

[PGAT]

Considering how low the PPM of Gatwick Express is, that 3 minute time saving means nothing

 

[Sussex Ben]

The up trains didn't, xx14 arrival compared with xx11. And those timings were only achiveable because there was so little congestion as there were practically no other trains running.

They weren’t even really achievable with the extra 3mins. My experience of waiting at Victoria for the inbound train was that they were often late, probably due to picking up the crowds at East Croydon and the ongoing insistence of running most of these services as 8-cars.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The PPM is usually worse for the down trains than the up and is not helped by the fact that GTR have 'cape all GXs' as their number 1 part of service recovery for anything and everything.

 

[Minstral25]

The up trains didn't, xx14 arrival compared with xx11. And those timings were only achiveable because there was so little congestion as there were practically no other trains running.

Strange that Planners can take that view on Brighton/Gatwick trains, but cannot sort out the abysmal timings on the Redhill route where 70% of trains have been removed to provide a uasable service.

The PPM is usually worse for the down trains than the up and is not helped by the fact that GTR have 'cape all GXs' as their number 1 part of service recovery for anything and everything.

They only Cancel the GX's after they have removed the 1R and 9R services - so its number 2 really.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

They only Cancel the GX's after they have removed the 1R and 9R services - so its number 2 really.

Didn't realise they cancelled the 1R and 9R services for problems south of Three Bridges.

 

[Minstral25]

Didn't realise they cancelled the 1R and 9R services for problems south of Three Bridges.

They'll cancel the 1R's for a problem anywhere

 

[Park47515]

They'll cancel the 1R's for a problem anywhere

They don't though. They wouldn't cancel the 1R or the 9Rs for a Haywards Heath issue for instance...

 

[david1212]

The up trains didn't, xx14 arrival compared with xx11. And those timings were only achiveable because there was so little congestion as there were practically no other trains running.

I had not noticed the northbound addition of 3 minutes on top of end-to-end time being 4 minutes longer but did presume only workable because fewer other trains running.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They don't though. They wouldn't cancel the 1R or the 9Rs for a Haywards Heath issue for instance...

No but 9Rxx service group gets sacrificed more than any other TLK service group. Slightest wrinkle on MML, Core or the Southern and their suspended and even when normal working is resumed their re-introduction is sclerotic if at all.

 

[BPN2022]

No but 9Rxx service group gets sacrificed more than any other TLK service group. Slightest wrinkle on MML, Core or the Southern and their suspended and even when normal working is resumed their re-introduction is sclerotic if at all.

Surely that makes sense because they can put calls in the 9J?

 

[infobleep]

Surely that makes sense because they can put calls in the 9J?

In theory they can add in calls on the Brighton mainline services too.

 

[Minstral25]

They don't though. They wouldn't cancel the 1R or the 9Rs for a Haywards Heath issue for instance...

Sorry - but they have. Can't remember exact date but last year when there was a problem meaning they had to use a single line from Three Bridges to Haywards Heath because of issue at Balcombe they removed the 9R services to create space at Three Bridges.

Always first in queue

Surely that makes sense because they can put calls in the 9J?

In terms of 9R, One would think but timings at Horsham mean they can only call in one direction without making the 9J run late. So invariably they fail to add calls in at 9R only stations.

In terms of 1R - they never add calls at Purley when both are cancelled (as technically 9J should be on fast line) so to get from Purley to Redhill requires going via East Croydon.

 

[arb]

Does anybody know what we might expect for Thameslink Cambridge to Farringdon services on an overtime ban day (specifically Friday 6th October)?

• Journey planners are still showing the regular half-hourly timetable for next week
• Looking at the detail from the last overtime ban in August by using RecentTrainTimes, it seems to be 50-50 between an hourly service or not running at all (except for a few very early/late night trains)

Hourly would fit with what I know normally happens to the Great Northern King's Lynn to King's Cross trains, but the simultaneous tube strike on the 6th means that I'm looking at Farringdon and Crossrail rather than King's Cross and the tube. And I'm surprised to see days in the last overtime ban with no Thameslink service at all from Cambridge - I don't recall that being the case - but I admit I wouldn't have been paying much attention to them at the time!

 

[MikeWM]

Does anybody know what we might expect for Thameslink Cambridge to Farringdon services on an overtime ban day (specifically Friday 6th October)?

One an hour according to the 'plan' GN/TL have just published here.

Should be the same service as this Friday (which *is* now updated in journey planners), at least in theory.

I'm still not quite sure why GTR need to halve their weekday service every time there is an overtime ban. Pretty much every other TOC warns of potential disruption but doesn't slash the timetable like this in advance.

 

[arb]

Some more digging in RecentTrainTimes showed the 5 days I claimed the Thameslink trains weren't running at all during the last overtime ban wasn't quite true. They were running an hourly service - but they were skipping Farringdon and City Thameslink. Assuming that the data can be trusted, of course.

See e.g. https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=113687998 which shows a Cambridge service stopping at St Pancras and Blackfriars but nothing between them.

 

[MikeWM]

Some more digging in RecentTrainTimes showed the 5 days I claimed the Thameslink trains weren't running at all during the last overtime ban wasn't quite true. They were running an hourly service - but they were skipping Farringdon and City Thameslink. Assuming that the data can be trusted, of course.

See e.g. https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=113687998 which shows a Cambridge service stopping at St Pancras and Blackfriars but nothing between them.

That's a very strange calling pattern - Cambridge, Ashwell, Letchworth, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, St Pancras, Blackfriars? GTR do some really weird stuff on occasion but that looks more like a data error to me.

The following week was also an overtime ban week and the calling pattern there looks far more usual. Eg. here's the same train a week later, which has the usual pattern of also calling at Royston, Baldock and Hitchin:

https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=113912364

 

[infobleep]

Interestingly they are running a limited Southern service on Saturday calling at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria only

Nothing else is running on any of their brands. I don't know why they didn't just run it as a Gatwick Express service. It's not as if Southern or Thameslink tickets aren't valid on Gatwick Express.

I'm surprised so few trains are running though. I would have expected more than that but then I do lose track of which disruption affects which company in different ways as they all have differing amounts of staff in the different unions.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm still not quite sure why GTR need to halve their weekday service every time there is an overtime ban. Pretty much every other TOC warns of potential disruption but doesn't slash the timetable like this in advance.

GTR are affected more than any other TOC by long running absence post Covid, and are therefore relying more than most on RDW / OT.

I'm surprised so few trains are running though. I would have expected more than that but then I do lose track of which disruption affects which company in different ways as they all have differing amounts of staff in the different unions.

When ASLEF are on strike, the only trains that are planned are those operated by managers with Driving competency, or drivers who are certain not to strike. In some TOCs there are agreements with ASLEF that managers will not drive trains in service on strike days, and I some cases at all unless a driver is also rostered and available. Bonkers in my opinion, but let’s not go there now!

 

[arb]

That's a very strange calling pattern - Cambridge, Ashwell, Letchworth, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, St Pancras, Blackfriars? GTR do some really weird stuff on occasion but that looks more like a data error to me.

I hadn't noticed the other differences - I was focussed too mutch on the core.

On one hand, if it was a one-off I'd agree that it's definitely a data glitch. On the other hand, for a random data glitch to happen 5 times out of 10 during an overtime ban, and never on the weeks either side, seems like too much of a coincidence to me.

I'll be watching the live data at the end of this week and start of next week very carefully!

 

[Gerard92]

Some more digging in RecentTrainTimes showed the 5 days I claimed the Thameslink trains weren't running at all during the last overtime ban wasn't quite true. They were running an hourly service - but they were skipping Farringdon and City Thameslink. Assuming that the data can be trusted, of course.

See e.g. https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=113687998 which shows a Cambridge service stopping at St Pancras and Blackfriars but nothing between them.

The reason for the Farringdon call not showing is due to tube strike the same day (04/10/23) so TL will await confirmation on staffing numbers from TFL, last time both TL & Elizabeth line only called at Farringdon from 0700 until late evening during tube strikes

 

[arb]

The reason for the Farringdon call not showing is due to tube strike the same day (04/10/23) so TL will await confirmation on staffing numbers from TFL, last time both TL & Elizabeth line only called at Farringdon from 0700 until late evening during tube strikes

The data I linked to is for the last overtime ban at the start of August, not the upcoming one. And it shows the exact opposite of what you say - Farringdon calls happened early morning and late evening, and not during most of the day.

However you make a valid point for my journey on 6th October: maybe maybe I'll have to do Liverpool Street and Crossrail, not Farringdon and Crossrail!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR are affected more than any other TOC by long running absence post Covid, and are therefore relying more than most on RDW / OT.

But not 50% at any depot. I get when this all kicked off they had to take a lower timetable base to get a revised timetable out but they’ve had months to look at each routes depot establishment to better optimise resources to provide best timetable possible. Seems they’d rather just keep it simple but then they don’t need to worry about the revenue vs cost debate here.