Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[infobleep]

GTR are affected more than any other TOC by long running absence post Covid, and are therefore relying more than most on RDW / OT.



When ASLEF are on strike, the only trains that are planned are those operated by managers with Driving competency, or drivers who are certain not to strike. In some TOCs there are agreements with ASLEF that managers will not drive trains in service on strike days, and I some cases at all unless a driver is also rostered and available. Bonkers in my opinion, but let’s not go there now!

I got muddled up and it's just ASLEF. I had RMT in my mind too but they are just the Tube on different days.

 

[Horizon22]

The data I linked to is for the last overtime ban at the start of August, not the upcoming one. And it shows the exact opposite of what you say - Farringdon calls happened early morning and late evening, and not during most of the day.

However you make a valid point for my journey on 6th October: maybe maybe I'll have to do Liverpool Street and Crossrail, not Farringdon and Crossrail!

FYI Liverpool Street would be the same issue.

 

[Minstral25]

GTR are affected more than any other TOC by long running absence post Covid, and are therefore relying more than most on RDW / OT.

But surely not to the point where they reduce services to almost 20% of normal along some routes. And they refuse to even look at moving train times by 20 minutes to get a more even pattern to help passengers - this is a continuing problem over every overtime ban.

GTR seem to be being awkward for the sake of being awkward and it comes across that their view is passengers don't matter. It's quite sad really.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Interestingly they are running a limited Southern service on Saturday calling at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria only

Nothing else is running on any of their brands. I don't know why they didn't just run it as a Gatwick Express service. It's not as if Southern or Thameslink tickets aren't valid on Gatwick Express.

I'm surprised so few trains are running though. I would have expected more than that but then I do lose track of which disruption affects which company in different ways as they all have differing amounts of staff in the different unions.

I think the acceptance of Southern and Thameslink tickets on Gatwick Express services is only really a Forum and other similar ‘enthusiast’ position.

If you asked GTR, they would say they are not valid on the services, so it makes sense it’s not a Gatwick Express service to allow travellers with other tickets to use it on strike days.

I know there is a court case, but don’t think that has reached a conclusion yet

 

[infobleep]

I think the acceptance of Southern and Thameslink tickets on Gatwick Express services is only really a Forum and other similar ‘enthusiast’ position.

If you asked GTR, they would say they are not valid on the services, so it makes sense it’s not a Gatwick Express service to allow travellers with other tickets to use it on strike days.

I know there is a court case, but don’t think that has concluded yet

Given they are allowing 'Gatwick Express' and 'Thameslink' tickets to use the Southern branded service and given the service is only stopping at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, they could easily have made it a Gatwick Express service and allowed 'Southern' and 'Thameslink' tickets on it.

Would that have created less work for the planners or does it make no difference to them which company it is when needing to create the strike timetable?

 

[JonathanH]

Given they are allowing 'Gatwick Express' and 'Thameslink' tickets to use the Southern branded service and given the service is only stopping at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, they could easily have made it a Gatwick Express service and allowed 'Southern' and 'Thameslink' tickets on it.

That is not what is presented to the public. While it is widespread knowledge on this forum, I doubt that most people are aware of what you are suggesting.

Rightly or wrongly, people associate Gatwick Express services with a higher fare than Southern services.

Running it as a Southern servive at least removes some level of ambiguity for people buying tickets on the day, as Gatwick Express fares are set at a higher level (eg Any Permitted vs 'Not Gatwick Express') and Thameslink doesn't run to Victoria.

 

[OneOfThe48]

That is not what is presented to the public. While it is widespread knowledge on this forum, I doubt that most people are aware of what you are suggesting.

Rightly or wrongly, people associate Gatwick Express services with a higher fare than Southern services.

Running it as a Southern servive at least removes some level of ambiguity for people buying tickets on the day, as Gatwick Express fares are set at a higher level (eg Any Permitted vs 'Not Gatwick Express') and Thameslink doesn't run to Victoria.

And if they had run it as a Gatwick Express service, I am sure that a lot of people would be accusing them of price gouging by charging people GX fares when it was the only rail service from London to Gatwick

 

[JonathanH]

And if they had run it as a Gatwick Express service, I am sure that a lot of people would be accusing them of price gouging by charging people GX fares when it was the only rail service from London to Gatwick

Yes, quite.

 

[MrJeeves]

That is not what is presented to the public.

It very much is during strike periods on GTR's industrial action pages online. Their (illegitimate) brand restrictions aren't enforced during strike days.

And if they had run it as a Gatwick Express service, I am sure that a lot of people would be accusing them of price gouging by charging people GX fares when it was the only rail service from London to Gatwick

But similarly, I understand this sentiment and hence it's easier to simply charge Southern prices on a Southern branded train instead... which will almost certainly run as GX coaches anyway!

 

[infobleep]

That is not what is presented to the public. While it is widespread knowledge on this forum, I doubt that most people are aware of what you are suggesting.

Rightly or wrongly, people associate Gatwick Express services with a higher fare than Southern services.

Running it as a Southern servive at least removes some level of ambiguity for people buying tickets on the day, as Gatwick Express fares are set at a higher level (eg Any Permitted vs 'Not Gatwick Express') and Thameslink doesn't run to Victoria.

But playing devils advocate, they do say Gatwick Express fares are valid on the Southern service.

Why buy a more expensive ticket. I guess some will have already purchases their more expensive ticket.

I wonder if there will be any Gatwick Express branded rolling stock running these Southern branded services.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Disappointing that GTR still haven’t been able to improve the plan by maximising the length of Victoria to Brighton services. 8-cars on peak services is really poor (as evidenced by the number standing on my train now).

 

[PGAT]

4 or 5 coaches on the Caterham Line at peak times is very poor as well

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Disappointing that GTR still haven’t been able to improve the plan by maximising the length of Victoria to Brighton services. 8-cars on peak services is really poor (as evidenced by the number standing on my train now).

Not as if they are short of stock with the thinned service all this week

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Tonight a Brighton service stopped at clapham junction (17:06 I think) which was in gatwick express livery.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Tonight a Brighton service stopped at clapham junction (17:06 I think) which was in gatwick express livery.

They do on a overtime ban timetable. Oh and despite calling at CLJ and ECR they are still timed for 31m VIC-GTW yet its all too difficult to do it when the full timetable is running.

 

[PGAT]

They do on an overtime ban timetable. Oh and despite calling at CLJ and ECR they are still timed for 31m VIC-GTW yet its all too difficult to do it when the full timetable is running.

If they stopped at CLJ and ECR they couldn’t get away with charging overpriced premium fares

 

[ThameslinkUser]

yet its all too difficult to do it when the full timetable is running.

Funnily enough when services are as infrequent as they can get away with, there's less congestion and thus more opportunity to run an efficient and timely service. Who would've thought it?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Funnily enough when services are as infrequent as they can get away with, there's less congestion and thus more opportunity to run an efficient and timely service. Who would've thought it?

For sure but surprised that even with CLJ & ECR stop its scheduled for 31m and looking at RTT todays it achieves that. This is better than the sectional running times for a non stop service!! So what it clearly demonstrates is better for Brighton GX's to call at C.Jcn all the time.

 

[louis97]

For sure but surprised that even with CLJ & ECR stop its scheduled for 31m and looking at RTT todays it achieves that. This is better than the sectional running times for a non stop service!! So what it clearly demonstrates is better for Brighton GX's to call at C.Jcn all the time.

The sectional running times for a non-stop service between Victoria and Gatwick come to 26.5 minutes, however 30 seconds performance allowance is mandated approaching Clapham Junction, therefore the minimum you can publish is 27 minutes. The GX services have various allowances in them, that is why the additional stops can be fitted in.

 

[infobleep]

Tonight a Brighton service stopped at clapham junction (17:06 I think) which was in gatwick express livery.

It was of course a Southern-branded service, just without any Southern branding on it. Instead Gatwick Express branding, despite not being a Gatwick Express brand service.

If you are confused, I do hope so.

If they are going to use Gatwick Express branded stock they might as well make it a Gatwick Express service.

Imagine going to London Victoria but the station having signs calling it London Bridge, even though it is officially London Victoria.

The sectional running times for a non-stop service between Victoria and Gatwick come to 26.5 minutes, however 30 seconds performance allowance is mandated approaching Clapham Junction, therefore the minimum you can publish is 27 minutes. The GX services have various allowances in them, that is why the additional stops can be fitted in.

Are the allowances needed to ensure there aren't delays and if that time was regularly used for additional stood would it just lead to continuously poor timekeeping

Perhaps this week they got lucky.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Perhaps this week they got lucky.

Or perhaps there was less congestion and thus propensity for delays.

 

[MikeWM]

Meanwhile, there aren't any strikes or overtime bans or anything else this Saturday (unless I've forgotten something?) but it appears GN are only bothering to run half of their usual service between Ely and London - 1tph instead of the usual 2tph. There's engineering work *north* of Ely, but I fail to see why that would need to result in halving the service going south. There's nothing on GN's website to inform passengers that they're not going to bother to run half the usually timetabled trains, or explain why they've decided to remove 50% of their service.

 

[wagnaga]

Meanwhile, there aren't any strikes or overtime bans or anything else this Saturday (unless I've forgotten something?) but it appears GN are only bothering to run half of their usual service between Ely and London - 1tph instead of the usual 2tph. There's engineering work *north* of Ely, but I fail to see why that would need to result in halving the service going south. There's nothing on GN's website to inform passengers that they're not going to bother to run half the usually timetabled trains, or explain why they've decided to remove 50% of their service.

Would the issue be that Ely wouldn't have the capacity to turn the extra train?

 

[MikeWM]

Would the issue be that Ely wouldn't have the capacity to turn the extra train?

In general, that could well be an issue. But there's no services to the north at all on Saturday - to Norwich, Peterborough or Kings Lynn - so platform capacity should be considerably less constrained than usual.

 

[Magdalia]

Meanwhile, there aren't any strikes or overtime bans or anything else this Saturday (unless I've forgotten something?) but it appears GN are only bothering to run half of their usual service between Ely and London - 1tph instead of the usual 2tph. There's engineering work *north* of Ely, but I fail to see why that would need to result in halving the service going south. There's nothing on GN's website to inform passengers that they're not going to bother to run half the usually timetabled trains, or explain why they've decided to remove 50% of their service.

RTT suggests this is a platform capacity issue at Ely.

There will be 3tph between Ely and Cambridge, but 2tph are Greater Anglia because their trains are operating Liverpool Street-Ely-Stansted-Ely-Liverpool Street (presumably with class 720). The class 755s usually working to Stansted are trapped wrong side of the block.

The Cambridge-Kings Cross non-stop service is 2tph as usual.

 

[MikeWM]

RTT suggests this is a platform capacity issue at Ely.

On closer inspection, it only seems to be an issue because the truncated Ipswich-Peterborough trains are blocking platform 3 for 90 minutes out of every 2 hours. Couldn't they move them off somewhere else inbetween? Or make somewhat cleverer use of fitting in multiple trains on a single platform?

There will be 3tph between Ely and Cambridge, but 2tph are Greater Anglia because their trains are operating Liverpool Street-Ely-Stansted-Ely-Liverpool Street (presumably with class 720).

Ah, I hadn't noticed that. Cheaper GA travelcard it is then! (even if it does mean 90 minutes on a 720, ugh).

The Cambridge-Kings Cross non-stop service is 2tph as usual.

Which is fine, but it doesn't help those of us living in Ely much. I'm well used by now to having to check engineering notices when travelling at weekends, but it really seems to be getting ridiculous if I have to check a journey planner every time *as well*, just in case they've decided to remove trains in the regular timetable that are *not* in the area affected by the engineering works. At the least there should be a notice - in an obvious place - that services outside the closed area will also be affected.

 

[dk1]

On closer inspection, it only seems to be an issue because the truncated Ipswich-Peterborough trains are blocking platform 3 for 90 minutes out of every 2 hours. Couldn't they move them off somewhere else inbetween? Or make somewhat cleverer use of fitting in multiple trains on a single platform?

That wouldn’t be popular with Colchester/Ipswich traincrew as would cut back the time spent in Tesco/Costa

 

[Bald Rick]

On closer inspection, it only seems to be an issue because the truncated Ipswich-Peterborough trains are blocking platform 3 for 90 minutes out of every 2 hours. Couldn't they move them off somewhere else inbetween? Or make somewhat cleverer use of fitting in multiple trains on a single platform?

So absolutely nothign to do with GTR ‘not bothering’?

 

[MikeWM]

So absolutely nothign to do with GTR ‘not bothering’?

I've no idea who is responsible for the details of platform allocation in such cases, or whether GTR have any say in it or not.

I *do* know that, whether there is anything they can do about it or not, that they are not bothering to communicate in any way whatever that there will be only half a service running from my local station to London on Saturday, despite there not being any engineering work affecting the route, and that if I'd shown up to get a train that is in the regular timetable without having checked RTT first then I'd have been getting to London a lot later than planned. I don't think that's acceptable.

 

[MikeWM]

I see on Saturday that GN aren't going to run anything north of Cambridge after the 1805 to Kings Lynn, whereas XC and GA are running effectively a normal service.

I was rather hoping to have a trip to London on Saturday, as for most of the last three months we've had engineering work blocking both Cambridge-London lines all weekend every weekend, but with only two trains scheduled to run between Cambridge and Ely after 2030 (both GA Norwich trains), I expect there is a serious risk of them being so overcrowded I may not actually be able to get home, so I'll probably not bother travelling at all.

Another great performance from GN.