Spanish regional trains too big?

[fandroid]

I have been getting news feeds about trains ordered for the Spanish regions of Asturias and Cantabria being too big to fit in their tunnels. Can anyone add any detail/thoughts on this?

 

[busestrains]

I have been getting news feeds about trains ordered for the Spanish regions of Asturias and Cantabria being too big to fit in their tunnels. Can anyone add any detail/thoughts on this?

Oh dear. You would think if you were going to spend millions on ordering trains you would at least get the measurements right. I think something very similar happened in France a couple of years ago. They had to rebuild some platforms and space out some tracks in order to use the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair to our continental friends, when we ordered the electrostars, we had to swiftly upgrade the electricity supply in Southern England to cope with them !

 

[Peterthegreat]

They are narrow (but not narrow enough) trains for the ex-FEVE lines in Northern Spain

Spain spends €258m on trains that don’t fit through tunnels

Two Spanish transport executives have been fired after a train fiasco that saw the design of 31 trains that were too big for the country's tunnels.

eandt.theiet.org

Two Spanish transport executives have been fired after a train fiasco that saw the design of 31 trains that were too big for the tunnels on the line where they would run.


Spain recently spent €258m (£228m) in designing 31 trains that will be delayed by several years due to a major design flaw.
The train designs were meant to be used in the FEVE line, which runs through the areas of Asturias and Cantabria. This line dates back to the 19th century, and so its tracks have track gauges narrower than the standard 1,435mm (4ft 8.5in), something that the manufacturer failed to notice in the designs.
Renfe, Spain’s national rail operator, Adif, the track company, and the country’s Left-wing coalition government have all faced harsh criticism after failing to notice the design fault.
CAF, the Basque manufacturer in charge of the construction of the trains, first raised concerns about the sizing in March 2021. The company had signed a €258m (£228m) contract in June 2020 to build 31 trains - 30 for Cantabria and 10 for Asturias - by October 2024.
The mistake was spotted before any train was constructed but it has delayed the delivery of the project by several years. The trains will now likely arrive in 2026.

The Ministry of Transport has commissioned an internal audit, while Renfe revealed that its rolling stock manager had been fired along with the head of Adif’s technology inspectorate.

The root of the problem seems to relate to a Declaration of the Network statement published by Adif in 2019 and used by Renfe to describe the technical characteristics of the new trains. However, the document did not describe the gauge of railway lines.

“The problem is that the ‘official’ measurements of the tunnels do not correspond to reality,” a Renfe spokesperson said.

However, Adif argued that it is not responsible for errors in the contract specifications by Renfe.

Sources in the railway sector told El Español that “it seems that Renfe interpreted that the standard gauges of the Gauges Railway Instruction are those existing throughout the network, without realising that they are the ones applied in new and refurbishment works.”

In order to address the issue, officials have said they will use the “comparative method”, which relies on using a train already circulating on the network as a reference for the size of the new designs.

This solution has been used successfully in the UK in the past, but never in Spain, which means it will require the authorisation of the Spanish railway safety authority.

Pedro Sánchez, Spain’s president, said he only found out about the problem “shortly before it was public knowledge” and that he had taken immediate measures to address it.

However, the government’s infrastructure secretary, Xavier Flores has admitted to knowing about the issue for several months.

“It was the first time that we were faced with buying a train on this line,” he added.

Miguel Angel Revilla, the president of Cantabria, who has long complained of poor transport infrastructure in his region, described the mix-up as an “outrageous botch-up”.

“When a project is launched, one assumes the company in charge knows what it has to provide,” he said. “If it is a train, it has to know the width of the wheels and if the train has to go through a tunnel.

“Someone has to pay for this and we need those trains now because one of the biggest issues in this region [is that] our trains are from the Wild West era,” he added.

The two years between the signing of the contract and the change in strategy have been said to have been spent in “technical discussions”, although the Spanish government has said it considers the process has not been “diligent enough”.

The trains must now be redesigned to ensure they can pass safely through tunnels on their intended routes. Both companies have committed to cooperate with the audit of the Ministry of Transport with absolute transparency.

 

[dgl]

Noting that they are only in the design phase, it's not like France when they were built before the oversize issue was found out. A slightly non-story really.

 

[30907]

IIRC the issue is that the tunnels are smaller than ADIF's (their NR) records stated.

 

[stuu]

I asked this to elsewhere. ADIF provided the loading gauge that all new construction is built to, without whoever did it realising that some of the network is more restricted than that.

It was trains for the metre gauge lines, which until 2014 were run by a separate organisation, which got absorbed by RENFE/ADIF. They weren't keen on the idea so it may be that some institutional knowledge has been lost

 

[zwk500]

Oh dear. You would think if you were going to spend millions on ordering trains you would at least get the measurements right. I think something very similar happened in France a couple of years ago. They had to rebuild some platforms and space out some tracks in order to use the trains.

You should have seen the list of restrictions for the 80Xs when they first came in.

 

[MotCO]

There may be another error. The referenced link states that

CAF, the Basque manufacturer in charge of the construction of the trains, first raised concerns about the sizing in March 2021. The company had signed a €258m (£228m) contract in June 2020 to build 31 trains - 30 for Cantabria and 10 for Asturias - by October 2024.

So maybe CAF will only build 31 trains whereas 40 are expected

 

[dutchflyer]

Of all stuu has best answer-it is indeed about former FEVE (narrow gauge tram like system in the north) and has to do with tunnels that in actual fact had other permitted or practical width possible as the paperwork in the burocracy-layers had indicated. Or so-or the like.
I think I got his from the german DSO-again, they seem to be faster and german-puenktlich about matters rail.
The solution seems to be that RENFE wants the outer measures reduced to be same as some formerly ordered stock. I understand same builder-Spansh tend to buy from their own sources anyway. Is probably cheaper and less cumbersome as widening these tunnels and blocking the lines for several monthes.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

See also https://www.euronews.com/travel/202...on-on-trains-that-are-too-big-for-its-tunnels

...Various parties played a part in the debacle, including Spain’s national rail operator Renfe, rail infrastructure manager Adif, transport manufacturer CAF and the State Agency for Railway Safety (AESF).

After granting the manufacturing contract to CAF, Renfe says it provided measurements based on infrastructure specifications provided by Adif. CAF later warned that the specifications may not be correct...

 

[MotCO]

I'm getting confused. Most of the articles quoted the trains are too big for the tunnels which implies the width or length of the carriages is too big, but one comment says that the track guage (the gap between wheels on the same axle) was wrong. Which is correct?

 

[stuu]

I'm getting confused. Most of the articles quoted the trains are too big for the tunnels which implies the width or length of the carriages is too big, but one comment says that the track guage (the gap between wheels on the same axle) was wrong. Which is correct?

Because journalists don't understand the difference between track gauge and structure gauge. A decent explanation is here

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

PRASA in South Africa procured Vossloh España (now Stadler) Afro 4000 diesel locomotives that were taller than allowed by the South African loading gauge. The locomotives were designed to meet the maximum height of 4,140 millimetres, which is allowed as the overall height of an electric locomotive including pantographs, but not as the locomotive's body height.

The Euro 4000 locomotive was designed to operate throughout Europe and is 4,264 millimetres (13 feet 11+7⁄8 inches) high above the railhead. During the tendering and negotiating process, PRASA submitted a loading gauge specification which called for a maximum height of 4,140 millimetres (13 feet 7 inches). Since the latter height was feasible by only modifying the detachable roof structures and some components without affecting the carbody structure or requiring major modifications, Vossloh España proceeded with the locomotive design once the contract was signed.[19][20][21]

The Transnet Freight Rail loading gauge specification which had been submitted during the tender phase when only the Euro Dual electro-diesel locomotive was being considered in the scope of the contract, was one which made special allowance for the pantographss on electric locomotives to exceed the actual maximum height of 3,965 millimetres (13 feet 1⁄8 inch). The loading gauge specification for diesel-electric locomotives and other rail vehicles, specifying a maximum height of 3,965 millimetres (13 feet 1⁄8 inch) above the railhead, was submitted to the manufacturer in October 2013 after the locomotive design was completed. The two loading gauge versions are identical in respect of roof profile and height, and differ only in respect of the special provision for the pantographs on electric locomotives to exceed the prescribed maximum height.[19][20][21]

Since reducing the locomotive height to 3,965 millimetres (13 feet 1⁄8 inch) would require a complete re-design of the vehicle equipment and the carbody structure and since the Afro 4000 locomotive, as already designed, would fit into the first submitted loading gauge for electric locomotive pantographs, PRASA accepted the locomotive design at the 4,140 millimetres (13 feet 7 inches) height.[19][20][21]

 

[Gordon]

Spain recently spent €258m (£228m) in designing 31 trains that will be delayed by several years due to a major design flaw.
The train designs were meant to be used in the FEVE line, which runs through the areas of Asturias and Cantabria. This line dates back to the 19th century, and so its tracks have track gauges narrower than the standard 1,435mm (4ft 8.5in), something that the manufacturer failed to notice in the designs.

Most of this text is hack drivel. Building of the lines in question wasn't started until 1921, and wasn't fully completed until 1972...

And the fact that a line 'dates back to the 19th century' is totally unrelated to the track gauge of course.

 

[TRAX]

Oh dear. You would think if you were going to spend millions on ordering trains you would at least get the measurements right. I think something very similar happened in France a couple of years ago. They had to rebuild some platforms and space out some tracks in order to use the trains.

Noting that they are only in the design phase, it's not like France when they were built before the oversize issue was found out. A slightly non-story really.

This was a hoax which was debunked ages ago.
The French trains were deliberately ordered that way, with infrastructure works planned with it (and not a lot really) and the entry into service of the trains wasn’t delayed by it because it was all planned.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When I travelled on the Euskotren network in 2014, there were new CAF trains running on the metre-gauge lines (Hendaye-Donostia).
You'd expect a very similar dimensions to exist on the FEVE lines further west.
It's not as though CAF were building for a completely unknown network.
NR would probably propose track-lowering in the tunnels.

 

[paul1609]

To be fair to our continental friends, when we ordered the electrostars, we had to swiftly upgrade the electricity supply in Southern England to cope with them !

It wasn't just the Electrostars the desiros on dc were even worse.
Going back to Regional Railways Days the first class 158 on the Cardiff to brighton service reached Brighton ok but demolished 200 yards of the down platform at Shoreham By Sea on the return. The service had to revert to 155/6s for 6 months whilst several platform clearance issues were resolved.

 

[D365]

And to think people were anxious about the Class 484s..!

 

[MisterSheeps]

I find the idea that the trains are from the "wild west era" strange. I first travelled on the FEVE (Torrelavega to Oviedo, Leon to Bilbao, Bilbao to Hendaye) in 1978; then used, I think, MAN diesel railcars or Alsthom built locos similar to BR class 20s, interestingly archaic electric locos E of Bilbao. Have seen photos from the RENFE / Adif era of much newer trains, so

It was the first time that we were faced with buying a train on this line,

seems wrong.

 

[pitdiver]

The 95 Tube stock was too big for some of the Northern Line tunnels albeit marginally

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Until 2012 metre gauge lines that had not been handed over to regional governments were operated by FEVE. The train operations side was then transferred to Renfe and the infrastructure to Adif. When Xavier Flores says “It was the first time that we were faced with buying a train on this line,” he means the first time since the reorganisation.

Renfe Feve - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[philthetube]

The 95 Tube stock was too big for some of the Northern Line tunnels albeit marginally

This was known about before specification though, plans had already been made to fix this.

59 stock with polystyrene attached to check clearances.

 

[pitdiver]

This was known about before specification though, plans had already been made to fix this.

59 stock with polystyrene attached to check clearances.

As station staff we didn't know about that. all we knew was they were too big and was going to be done to make the tunnels bigger

 

[brad465]

Two officials have now resigned over this:

Spain officials quit over trains that were too wide for tunnels

The botched order was for commuter trains due to operate in two mountainous northern regions.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two top Spanish transport officials have resigned over a botched order for new commuter trains that cost nearly €260m ($275m; £230m).
The trains could not fit into non-standard tunnels in the northern regions of Asturias and Cantabria.
The head of Spain's rail operator Renfe, Isaías Táboas, and the secretary of state for transport, Isabel Pardo de Vera, have now left their roles.
The design fault was made public earlier this month.
The Spanish government says the mistake was spotted early enough to avoid financial loss. However the region of Cantabria has demanded compensation.
Renfe ordered the trains in 2020 but the following year manufacturer CAF realised that the dimensions it had been given for the trains were inaccurate and stopped construction.
The rail network in northern Spain was built in the 19th Century and has tunnels under the mountainous landscape that do not match standard modern tunnel dimensions.
The mistake means the trains will be delivered in 2026, two years late.
Renfe and infrastructure operator Adif have launched a joint investigation to find out how the error could have happened. Earlier this month, Spain's transport ministry fired a Renfe manager and Adif's head of track technology over the blunder.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I find it difficult to believe that "no Spaniard's money has been wasted".
CAF will want paying for the abortive design and development work to date, at the very least.
Renfe and Adif will also have to redo the train specification.
In the Guardian version of this report, it says fares will be free on the affected network until the new trains arrive.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-resigns-new-renfe-trains-too-big-for-tunnels

The Socialist-led coalition government of prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, has tried to make further amends by announcing that travel on the Asturian and Cantabrian networks affected by the delays would be free until the new rolling stock began to come into service in early 2026

 

[zuriblue]

You should have seen the list of restrictions for the 80Xs when they first came in.

I lived in SE London in the 90s when the 465s first arrived. Quite a a lot of structural work needed to be done to make them fit. I think the're still not allowed on the Southern side of the lines leading into London Bridge.

 

[stuu]

I find it difficult to believe that "no Spaniard's money has been wasted".
CAF will want paying for the abortive design and development work to date, at the very least.
Renfe and Adif will also have to redo the train specification.
In the Guardian version of this report, it says fares will be free on the affected network until the new trains arrive.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-resigns-new-renfe-trains-too-big-for-tunnels

It doesn't entirely add up, I agree. If CAF noticed before they did any work, why are they delayed by two years? Some of this does seem to be purely politics though - there are elections this year so more is being made of this than might be the case at another time

 

[Parjon]

Residents to get free train travel

El servicio de Renfe será gratuito en Asturias y Cantabria hasta 2026 para compensar el fiasco de los trenes que no entran en las vías

(Travel will be free in Asturias and Cantabria until 2026 to compensate for the fiasco of the trains that won't fit on the lines)

El servicio de Renfe será gratuito en Asturias y Cantabria hasta 2026 para compensar el fiasco de los trenes que no entran en las vías

La ministra de Transportes, Raquel Sánchez, ha pactado tras una larga reunión con los presidentes de Asturias y Cantabria una batería de medidas para amortiguar

www.20minutos.es