Spare stock?

[Eagle]

Seriously, they should be used on local services like Coventry - Birmingham or Birmingham to Wolverhampton / Walsall.

Well, other than the fact that those lines would need to be re-electrified as fourth- or third-rail, and their seating capacity is unacceptably low for these interurban routes, as well as the lack of inter-carriage doors and toilets...
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Oh yeah, and their top speed is only 60, so using them on those lines, which have a 100-mph speed limit and are frequented by units actually timetabled at 100 (Desiros, Pendolinos and Voyagers), but with no overtaking opportunities...


Basically the amount of upgrading you'd need to do to this 35-year-old tube stock to make it even vaguely suitable for use on radial lines in the WM... it'd be cheaper to just buy some new trains.

 

[D6975]

Use of tube stock is seriously being considered in certain quarters - see

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48800

 

[DXMachina]

no, really, it isn't.... that was just a publicity stunt.

 

[AlanFry1]

Does anyone know if Merseyrail will gain the 15 class 508s that were taken from them and moved to SouthEastern and London Overground?

Also is there any Mark 3s that are currenly unused?

Also would it posibble to conver sleeper Mark 3s to passenger Mark 3s?

Lastly who will get the 317/7s?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone know if Merseyrail will gain the 15 class 508s that were taken from them and moved to SouthEastern and London Overground?

As far as I'm aware they remain sitting out of use down south with no plans to redeploy them elsewhere.

Also is there any Mark 3s that are currenly unused?

A few vehicles here and there (and when I say a few and really do mean a few) but most are either in service with TOCs or owned by charter companies.

Also would it posibble to conver sleeper Mark 3s to passenger Mark 3s?

No, one was converted several years ago and the result was so structurally weak that it had to be transported by road rather than rail. Also there are very few Mk3 sleepers left sitting around and those that are have been raided for spare parts for the existing sleeper services.

Lastly who will get the 317/7s?

Don't think anyone knows yet, but there are suggestions that they will end up in the North West when the wires are energised as a stop gap measure before the 319s become available.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone know if Merseyrail will gain the 15 class 508s that were taken from them and moved to SouthEastern and London Overground?

The general consensus is that they are in too poor a condition to be returned to service without a considerable amount of work being carried out, which would be prohibitively expensive at this late stage in the units lives.

Also is there any Mark 3s that are currenly unused?

DB Schenker have been quick to snap up the majority of the spare mark 3s that have come available (Mostly first class vehicles), principally those that were previously used by DRS and I believe the former Cargo-D vehicles as well. Porterbrook also still retain a number of mark 3s, mostly TSOs, that are in store at Long Marston in most cases and are in the worst condition of all the spare mark 3s.

Also would it posibble to conver sleeper Mark 3s to passenger Mark 3s?

No, as it weakens the structure of the carriages too much as the supporting ribs in a mark 3 sleeper are arranged differently to those in the seated coaches.

Lastly who will get the 317/7s?

Rumours abound that they might go to Northern for the initial stages of the North West electrification as a stop gap measure until 319s become available from Thameslink. How much truth there is in this rumour is another matter...

EDIT: Ainsworth74 beat me to it!

 

[AlanFry1]

As far as I'm aware they remain sitting out of use down south with no plans to redeploy them elsewhere.



A few vehicles here and there (and when I say a few and really do mean a few) but most are either in service with TOCs or owned by charter companies.



No, one was converted several years ago and the result was so structurally weak that it had to be transported by road rather than rail. Also there are very few Mk3 SLEPs left sitting around and those that are have been raided for spare parts for the existing sleeper services.


Don't think anyone knows yet, but there are suggestions that they will end up in the North West when the wires are energised as a stop gap measure before the 319s become available.

I my opnion, it would be better if Merseyrail started the process in replacing their fleet, firstly, the company has the oldest fleet on the network (based on average age) also, with the expansion of services, they need more stock in general, when they do that, it would need to be dual voltage

Also until they are moved to the northwest the 317/7s should be used on GA and not withdrawn

 

[pemma]

I my opnion, it would be better if Merseyrail started the process in replacing their fleet, firstly, the company has the oldest fleet on the network (based on average age) also, with the expansion of services, they need more stock in general, when they do that, it would need to be dual voltage

It won't need to be dual voltage. Merseyrail is more or less a self-contained network and the plan is to keep it that way. Any suggestions of extensions on to OHE track are just on enthusiast's wish lists. There are also no plans to replace the Merseyrail 3rd rail system with OHE.

Also until they are moved to the northwest the 317/7s should be used on GA and not withdrawn

Under DfT's rolling stock procurement plans 12 of the NXEA units were supposed to go to C2C for extra capacity once the 379s were introduced. That idea fell through so NXEA had 12 units outside what were needed for the franchise commitment but they choose to keep them in service until the end of the franchise. Abeillo knew all this when they put in their bid for the new franchise so their bid included 3 of the 12 extra units staying in the franchise and 9 being withdrawn, which was accepted.

 

[AlanFry1]

It won't need to be dual voltage. Merseyrail is more or less a self-contained network and the plan is to keep it that way. Any suggestions of extensions on to OHE track are just on enthusiast's wish lists. There are also no plans to replace the Merseyrail 3rd rail system with OHE.



Under DfT's rolling stock procurement plans 12 of the NXEA units were supposed to go to C2C for extra capacity once the 379s were introduced. That idea fell through so NXEA had 12 units outside what were needed for the franchise commitment but they choose to keep them in service until the end of the franchise. Abeillo knew all this when they put in their bid for the new franchise so their bid included 3 of the 12 extra units staying in the franchise and 9 being withdrawn, which was accepted.

Is is not the case they future Electrfications of Merseyrail would be OHE and would need dual voltage units

Could GA could have used the 9 extra trains to releve overcrowding?

Also if they were removing stock, they could have a few 315s removed

C2C would have been better off ordering more 357s

 

[sprinterguy]

C2C would have been better off ordering more 357s

The 357s, as the first of the Electrostars, are a design that is long out of production, so procuring more units is impossible.

 

[AlanFry1]

The 357s, as the first of the Electrostars, are a design that is long out of production, so procuring more units is impossible.

Maybe move the 357s to other areas and order Bombardier Aventra stock (more than the current) fleet to add extra capacity?

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe move the 357s to other areas and order Bombardier Aventra stock (more than the current) fleet to add extra capacity?

I don't think that the LTS lines are so desperate for extra capacity that an entire new fleet of trains is needed

 

[AlanFry1]

I don't think that the LTS lines are so desperate for extra capacity that an entire new fleet of trains is needed

It just that there was a plan to tranfer 12 trains to C2C and it would be better if they were all the same type of train

 

[pemma]

Is is not the case they future Electrfications of Merseyrail would be OHE and would need dual voltage units

There's some debate whether or not a European ruling excludes new third rail track and if it does whether that includes underground and extensions to existing systems or just to new overground systems.

Could GA could have used the 9 extra trains to releve overcrowding?

Also if they were removing stock, they could have a few 315s removed

GA are using the remaining units more intensely than NXEA so there's very few services that have lost capacity.

The 317/7s were fitted out for Airport services so contain lower seating density than the 315s or the other 317s which is why they were the ones to be withdrawn. Northern's 323s have many more seats than the 317/7s despite being 3 carriages not 4.

 

[sprinterguy]

It just that there was a plan to tranfer 12 trains to C2C and it would be better if they were all the same type of train

But prohibitively expensive to implement.

 

[pemma]

But prohibitively expensive to implement.

If both franchises had remained under NX a more cost effective solution could have been implemented. Like when the 350s were shared between Central and Silverlink. Trying to get Abeillo to service NX's 317s or having a shared 317 fleet between Abeillo and NX creates a lot of potential problems.

 

[tbtc]

It won't need to be dual voltage. Merseyrail is more or less a self-contained network and the plan is to keep it that way. Any suggestions of extensions on to OHE track are just on enthusiast's wish lists. There are also no plans to replace the Merseyrail 3rd rail system with OHE

Any new Third Rail EMUs would be dual voltage or easily converted to dual voltage. IIRC its been some time since the last new Third Rail stock that wasn't designed around having a pantograph at some stage.

Could GA could have used the 9 extra trains to releve overcrowding?

They've had the 360s and 379s in recent years, plus they'll have spare stock in a few years when the Shenfield 315s are no longer needed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Under DfT's rolling stock procurement plans 12 of the NXEA units were supposed to go to C2C for extra capacity once the 379s were introduced.

Haven't heard of that one before.

What was in the eventual published DFT HLOS plans was that 10 of the ex LM 321s were supposed to go to c2c. This never happened and 7 of them were reallocated back to LM, and 3 additional units went to FCC (GN side).

Was there a fallback position of 10 units from NXEA at one stage? A bit academic really though as c2c eventually didn't bother.

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There's some debate whether or not a European ruling excludes new third rail track and if it does whether that includes underground and extensions to existing systems or just to new overground systems.

There's no debate about extensions being allowed. The NR Electrification RUS plans for various infills and extension of the third rail network, such as the North Downs line.

 

[pemma]

Haven't heard of that one before.

What was in the eventual published DFT HLOS plans was that 10 of the ex LM 321s were supposed to go to c2c. This never happened and 7 of them were reallocated back to LM, and 3 additional units went to FCC (GN side).

Was there a fallback position of 10 units from NXEA at one stage? A bit academic really though as c2c eventually didn't bother.

The HLOS plans did include alternative options in some cases, opposed to having one option set in stone.

A couple of months back someone was commenting that XC should have got a couple of extra 170s off LM under it, when it turned out the plan for increasing capacity in the East Midlands included two alternatives - one for the 170s off LM which was not implemented and another for EMT to get extra 153s, which was implemented.

It seems the option to send 317s to c2c was still there but the alternative option to send 321s to LM was not.

With NXEA happily keeping the extra units in service when the 379s were introduced and c2c not pushing for extra units it got forgotten about until Abeillo stated that 9 of the units aren't required to meet the franchise commitment.

 

[swt_passenger]

The HLOS plans did include alternative options in some cases, opposed to having one option set in stone.

A couple of months back someone was commenting that XC should have got a couple of extra 170s off LM under it, when it turned out the plan for increasing capacity in the East Midlands included two alternatives - one for the 170s off LM which was not implemented and another for EMT to get extra 153s, which was implemented.

It seems the option to send 317s to c2c was still there but the alternative option to send 321s to LM was not.

With NXEA happily keeping the extra units in service when the 379s were introduced and c2c not pushing for extra units it got forgotten about until Abeillo stated that 9 of the units aren't required to meet the franchise commitment.

I've found the original DfT statement, from Jan 2008, which reads:

"1. The additional vehicles on C2C [40] would be cascaded EMUs likely to be either ten class 321 units from London Midland or ten class 317 units from the One franchise.

2. The One franchise would take on lease class 321 units cascaded from London Midland. In addition, the franchise would order new EMU vehicles for services on the West Anglia route to Stansted airport, in turn releasing Class 317 vehicles to provide more coaches on other services [IMHO that means other services of their own]."

The 'One' franchise's net increase allocated in the associated table was 188 vehicles which turned out (as we now know) to be 120 x 379 and 68 x 321. It seems to me that if ten class 317 had moved from One to c2c then 'One' would have had to get 10 more 321s from LM as well to balance the books and keep that net increase of 188 vehicles.

So as far as the HLOS went, 'One' were due 188 vehicles, and that's exactly what they got; therefore I don't think the 317s are 'spare' specifically because they didn't transfer to c2c, because if they had gone there NXEA would have still ended their franchise with the same number of extra units by other means. What has made them spare is more likely to have been the new franchisee not having to provide 12 car Stansted Express trains as originally planned.

 

[yorkie]

It just that there was a plan to tranfer 12 trains to C2C and it would be better if they were all the same type of train

Tranfer, eh? There's only one person who spells transfer like that...

In that case Northern will have to order more Class 185 so that they can tranfer TPE South and some class 158 to EMT

Busted! Goodbye. (And a huge thank you to the people who used the report button (

) ).

 

[pemma]

I've found the original DfT statement, from Jan 2008, which reads:

"1. The additional vehicles on C2C [40] would be cascaded EMUs likely to be either ten class 321 units from London Midland or ten class 317 units from the One franchise.

2. The One franchise would take on lease class 321 units cascaded from London Midland. In addition, the franchise would order new EMU vehicles for services on the West Anglia route to Stansted airport, in turn releasing Class 317 vehicles to provide more coaches on other services [IMHO that means other services of their own]."

The 'One' franchise's net increase allocated in the associated table was 188 vehicles which turned out (as we now know) to be 120 x 379 and 68 x 321. It seems to me that if ten class 317 had moved from One to c2c then 'One' would have had to get 10 more 321s from LM as well to balance the books and keep that net increase of 188 vehicles.

So as far as the HLOS went, 'One' were due 188 vehicles, and that's exactly what they got; therefore I don't think the 317s are 'spare' specifically because they didn't transfer to c2c, because if they had gone there NXEA would have still ended their franchise with the same number of extra units by other means. What has made them spare is more likely to have been the new franchisee not having to provide 12 car Stansted Express trains as originally planned.

OK the procurement plan seems to have disappeared from the archive on the DfT site now so I was trying to remember opposed to checking against something.

Remember also the new government looked at the previous government's plans and said "No. We can't afford to introduce that many new carriages."

 

[swt_passenger]

OK the procurement plan seems to have disappeared from the archive on the DfT site now so I was trying to remember opposed to checking against something.

Remember also the new government looked at the previous government's plans and said "No. We can't afford to introduce that many new carriages."

I was trying to point out that we'd both remembered half the story. I thought it was always 10 x 321s, you seemed to have remembered 12 (10) x 317 - turned out to be an 'either or'.

I suspect that the present government may have been right in the case of the c2c franchise, because there seems no urgency about increasing their rolling stock. The previous plans may have assumed growth that never happened in that particular area. The recent ITT no longer mentions additional stock for 'Essex Thameside' - indeed it highlights the point that 75% of the fleet is unused offpeak and at weekends.

Meanwhile, back in Sept 2008, and early 2009, Roger Ford's various tables and articles in Modern Railways clearly had the 37 unit fleet being divided up as 10 to FCC, 10 to c2c, and 17 to NXEA, ie c2c were not due for any 317s by then.

However when was the decision actually made that the ten 321s earmarked for c2c were being redistributed? FCC would now get 3 additional 321s, and LM would evenually keep 7 x 321s that they had been losing. It appears to me that the DfT under Labour had already come to the same conclusion about c2c, because LM's announcement that they were keeping 7 units was made during June 2009. I can't find an equivalent FCC announcement for their own extra 3 x 321s, but it must also be around that time.

So the decision that c2c would not receive additional units from the 321 cascade predates the change of government by nearly a year...

 

[pemma]

because LM's announcement that they were keeping 7 units was made during June 2009.

Was that supposed to be a permanent arrangement at that time? LM have been constantly pushing for more new EMUs (and DMUs) so they may have expected to replace them with Desiros at some point. I'm sure the 321s were still in Silverlink livery at the end of 2009.

Northern announced they were taking on 3 x 180s in 2008 but it was never intended as a permanent arrangement.

 

[swt_passenger]

Was that supposed to be a permanent arrangement at that time? LM have been constantly pushing for more new EMUs (and DMUs) so they may have expected to replace them with Desiros at some point. I'm sure the 321s were still in Silverlink livery at the end of 2009.

The announcement is here - it was specifically announced as 7 units to be reliveried - but the last paragraph is the key to the change of HLOS plans:

http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...idlands-321-trains-get-a-fresh-coat-of-paint/

IIRC they did one or two quickly, and then there was quite a delay.

 

[IanXC]

Was that supposed to be a permanent arrangement at that time? LM have been constantly pushing for more new EMUs (and DMUs) so they may have expected to replace them with Desiros at some point. I'm sure the 321s were still in Silverlink livery at the end of 2009.

I suspect LM will loose these 7x 321s when the 10x 350\4s are replaced on TPE Scottish duties. Presumably there will be an add on to the ICWC fleet, or the replacements will be part of the EMU order for North TPE.

I suspect the 7x 321s or (hopefully) the 332s will end up forming the stock for local electric services in Yorkshire following North TPE electrification.

 

[pemma]

I suspect the 7x 321s or (hopefully) the 332s will end up forming the stock for local electric services in Yorkshire following North TPE electrification.

Apart from the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper there aren't really any Yorkshire local services converting.

There's also the proposed 2tph between Piccadilly and Leeds semi-fast but based on the proposed May 2014 timetable I imagine one of those will extend to Hull or York, given that the proposed May 2014 timetable includes 4tph between Manchester and York and 1tph between Manchester and Hull and the Network Rail Northern Hub plan was for a total of 6tph between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield.

 

[IanXC]

Apart from the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper there aren't really any Yorkshire local services converting.

There's also the proposed 2tph between Piccadilly and Leeds semi-fast but based on the proposed May 2014 timetable I imagine one of those will extend to Hull or York, given that the proposed May 2014 timetable includes 4tph between Manchester and York and 1tph between Manchester and Hull and the Network Rail Northern Hub plan was for a total of 6tph between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield.

There aren't many units! I was thinking Hull-York, Leeds-York, Leeds-Selby in addition to the Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield you mentioned. Assumes Hull gets electrified mind!

Its not crazy to think there could be frequency improvements either, and\or the option to extend the Leeds-Selby to Hull.

 

[pemma]

There aren't many units! I was thinking Hull-York, Leeds-York, Leeds-Selby in addition to the Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield you mentioned. Assumes Hull gets electrified mind!

I didn't realise York-Hull would automatically be covered if Leeds-Hull was done.

Would it make sense to extend the Bradford-Leeds electric service to Selby to maintain through services to Bradford?

 

[IanXC]

I didn't realise York-Hull would automatically be covered if Leeds-Hull was done.

Would it make sense to extend the Bradford-Leeds electric service to Selby to maintain through services to Bradford?

The direct services definately would be, Hambleton Junction is a grade separated junction between TP North and the ECML. There are a portion of services which go via Sherburn, but given the small distance involved it'd be odd not to electrify that.

I can see the argument for Bradford-Selby, would it damage capacity and performance at Leeds though?