Split ticket delay repay LNER

[BigCj34]

I have been having a little issue with LNER not paying out fully for a delay repay claim using split tickets. The correspondence is as follows:

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to make a delay repay claim for a journey I made on Sunday July 1 2018. The relevant delayed portion was due to the cancellation of the 18:18 service from Doncaster to London Kings Cross, where I would have connected at Peterborough to continue my journey to Colchester. As I would have missed that connection my ticket was endorsed to make the fastest route which was via London, and boarded the subsequent 18:47 service to Kings Cross, itself arriving 10 minutes later than the scheduled 20:25 arrival. I eventually arrived in Colchester at 22:25, 39 minutes later than the scheduled 21:46 arrival.

However my intended journey was from Newcastle to Colchester, leaving Newcastle at 16:35 and arriving into Colchester at 21:46, but I arrived at approximately 22:25. My journey involved using multiple tickets, with the Newcastle to Doncaster leg on the 16:35 Cross-country service using split advance tickets from Newcastle to York and York to Doncaster, and one advance ticket for Doncaster to Colchester. Would you be able to calculate how much delay repay I would be eligible for, given I used multiple advance tickets for one journey? Although the tickets were split this was still one continuous journey. I have enclosed scans of my tickets and my address, if correspondence by post is required, is (removed). The tickets were booked by myself.

Regards,

The reply stated that I would only get paid for the ticketed part of the journey, from Doncaster to Colchester. So I wrote back as follows:

To whom it may concern,

Thank you for the response and resolving the delay repay for the part of the journey that involved LNER services. However, as previously stated, this does not cover the whole journey which comprised of multiple tickets. To my knowledge all TOC's are advised to factor in the cost of all tickets when paying out a delay repay claim, as the combined tickets constitute one journey even if using multiple tickets.

Since the NRCoT gives me the right to make a journey using multiple tickets, my journey should accordingly be calculated on the basis of the whole cost of the journey rather than simply the ticketed part of the journey that was delayed. I have made Delay Repay claims with other TOC's (namely Virgin West Coast) on this premise and succeeded in doing so.

So factoring the cost of the service I took preceding this train, the total payout should factor in the £13.60 spent on the preceding Cross-country service from Newcastle to Doncaster on top of the £14.50 spent (of which £7.25 has been reimbursed now) to use an LNER from Doncaster and a valid connecting service to Colchester. Although the Cross-country service arrived on time and would not be eligible for compensation if my journey ended in Doncaster, that was part of the journey that was ultimately delayed by LNER. Given I spent £13.60 on the Cross-country service and arrived 30-59 minutes late, I would be expecting an additional £6.80.

Aside from the Delay Repay being obliged to recompense a journey rather than a ticket, and the advice from RDG/ATOC to reimburse on this premise (delayed connections are protected with split-tickets as it is still part of a journey), only compensating passengers for the ticketed part of the journey that was delayed unfairly penalises those who have navigated the railway's convoluted ticketing system to make the train a more cost-effective option, which could have otherwise lead to the rail journey not being made at all.

I have already submitted all the tickets, but proof can be resent if necessary.

Regards,

I wish this entitlement to delay repay on split tickets be made clear, but as it stands LNER will not be paying out. Although I have emphasised the fact it was one journey it doesn't look like they'll budge on this matter. Their response was:

We know you may be disappointed, but my colleague’s initial response was correct, and the correct compensation amount was issued for the disruption you experienced. Our Passenger's Charter provides detailed information on all the schemes of compensation we offer and it can be viewed on our website at www.lner.co.uk.

Their charter does state tickets rather than journeys, but other operators (namely Virgin) have honoured delay repay on a split ticket. Can anyone advise me further on this?

 

[Hadders]

You are going to struggle to win this. Complain to Transport Focus but they will take LNER's side....

Most other companies pay out on split tickets, just yesterday WMT agreed to pay for delay to a journey of over an hour which involved a combination of 5 tickets.
SWR specifically state that they will pay out when a combination of tickets is used.

LNER and Hull Trains seem to be the villains in this area, in my experience.

 

[furlong]

You might need to take this one to the DfT (via your MP). As said elsewhere, the fact that companies chose to introduce TOC-only tickets which made it necessary to use multiple tickets for a journey to get the best value fares, should not be allowed to reduce rights to compensation for a delayed journey. If the companies aren't allowed to do this the DfT needs to tell them (with a franchise breach notice if need be) or if the DfT itself created the ambiguity, it should either close the loophole as soon as it can or if it was intentional let the minister defend the situation.

 

[BigCj34]

You are going to struggle to win this. Complain to Transport Focus but they will take LNER's side....

Most other companies pay out on split tickets, just yesterday WMT agreed to pay for delay to a journey of over an hour which involved a combination of 5 tickets.
SWR specifically state that they will pay out when a combination of tickets is used.

LNER and Hull Trains seem to be the villains in this area, in my experience.

Hull trains I can sort of understand as it is open-access, so different rules apply I am guessing. Clearly not the case with LNER though. Can you link where SWR states that? It would be useful ammunition.

You might need to take this one to the DfT (via your MP). As said elsewhere, the fact that companies chose to introduce TOC-only tickets which made it necessary to use multiple tickets for a journey to get the best value fares, should not be allowed to reduce rights to compensation for a delayed journey. If the companies aren't allowed to do this the DfT needs to tell them (with a franchise breach notice if need be) or if the DfT itself created the ambiguity, it should either close the loophole as soon as it can or if it was intentional let the minister defend the situation.

Fair point. I may well try, even if it is for £6.80. Who knows, could set something in stone here.

 

[Hadders]

It's in SWR's Passenger Charter. I think it's also in TPE's as well.

Here's the SWR reference. I've had a quick check of TPE's Charter and can't see it so I might be mistaken but I'm sure there's at least one other TOC who is specific about combinations.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...rter-and-performance/period-2-jun18.pdf?la=en

If you have a combination of tickets for your journey, we will compensate you for your whole journey

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would 'fight' the claim on the basis that neither their Passengers'Charter nor the NRCoT say that you can only receive compensation on one ticket when you are delayed. It would be an absolutely ludicrous suggestion that you are explicitly granted the right to split tickets and have that count as one journey if you like, and yet compensation is not based on the tickets' combined value. Those approaches are simply incompatible.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Would an FOI request to the DfT, asking for policies about Delay Repay for its franchises and the delay repay compensation when using split ticketing, provide a definitive answer.

If so, should it be contrary to LNER (who are also subject to Freedom of Information, being indirectly owned by the Department for Transport) would that provide valuable in any test cases at court against LNER/other routes?

 

[BigCj34]

Wiĺl probably raise it with Moneysavingexpert too.

 

[Hadders]

It would be an absolutely ludicrous suggestion that you are explicitly granted the right to split tickets and have that count as one journey if you like, and yet compensation is not based on the tickets' combined value. Those approaches are simply incompatible.

That’s exactly the view the useless Transport Focus take, even when you get a personal response from Anthony Smith which I did when I escalated a case involving Hull Trains to him.

Even when you point out the obvious to them it’s as though they stick their fingers in the ears and sing La, La, La...

 

[Wallsendmag]

Funnily enough I've been asked my view on Split Ticket delay repay recently by one of the Solution Centre Shift leaders and we were both in agreement that the compensation would be on all tickets held for the journey.

 

[BigCj34]

I want to get a little campaign on the go. This should be set in stone to remove doubt. So I think I will write to Martin Lewis and my MP as suggested. Be the change you want to see!

 

[Hadders]

Funnily enough I've been asked my view on Split Ticket delay repay recently by one of the Solution Centre Shift leaders and we were both in agreement that the compensation would be on all tickets held for the journey.

Is LNER going to pay out on combinations now?

 

[Haywain]

Is LNER going to pay out on combinations now?

Given the number of times I've had discussions with them on this over the years, I would see this as progress rather than a breakthrough!

 

[island]

Over what years? LNER has been in existence for less than two months

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is LNER going to pay out on combinations now?

Not my call I'm afraid.

 

[yorkie]

I have been having a little issue with LNER not paying out fully for a delay repay claim using split tickets. The correspondence is as follows:



The reply stated that I would only get paid for the ticketed part of the journey, from Doncaster to Colchester. So I wrote back as follows:



I wish this entitlement to delay repay on split tickets be made clear, but as it stands LNER will not be paying out. Although I have emphasised the fact it was one journey it doesn't look like they'll budge on this matter. Their response was:



Their charter does state tickets rather than journeys, but other operators (namely Virgin) have honoured delay repay on a split ticket. Can anyone advise me further on this?

Write to David Horne / Mike Ross and you will get the correct amount.

Please feel free to send me a direct message of your proposed wording for proof reading.

 

[BigCj34]

Finally got this sorted after writing to David Horne (response penned by Mike Ross), who has stated that the £6.80 will be reimbursed and that that the issue has been passed onto relevant departments and staff retraining will take place where required. I was also offered complimentary First Class tickets with LNER which is a very welcome bonus!

With the rising popularity and transparency of split-ticketing it is important that passenger rights are ascertained accordingly for as long as we have the complex fares structure we do. Hopefully LNER confirm this in their charter and more TOC's can take note. Thanks to Yorkie for the advice!

 

[Crossover]

I feel the need to bump this as I am currently experiencing the same issue.

My tickets were a Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster CDR (cheaper than a single!) and a Super Off Peak Single from Doncaster to London Terminals (the saving was a few quid over a through "SSS")

The train from Wakefield was cancelled (on a Northern strike day so there was nothing in between) and so I had to catch one half an hour later and this arrived in London around 10L off its booked time (so around 40L in total)

Delay Repay submitted and they came back with an appropriate refund on the CDR but blatently ignored the SSS (they basically said they were ignoring it). I have contested this and received a reply about an hour ago stating that the initial response was correct and that the refund is only due on Wakefield to Doncaster.

I find it incredulous that a scheme that was made to be (in some way) friendly to passengers is such a buggers muddle!

Maybe TOCs are trying to add so many obstacles that folk don't bother. The refund on the SSS would be sizeable (over £20) so I want to fight (plus not let them win) but one has to wonder

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I feel the need to bump this as I am currently experiencing the same issue.

My tickets were a Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster CDR (cheaper than a single!) and a Super Off Peak Single from Doncaster to London Terminals (the saving was a few quid over a through "SSS")

The train from Wakefield was cancelled (on a Northern strike day so there was nothing in between) and so I had to catch one half an hour later and this arrived in London around 10L off its booked time (so around 40L in total)

Delay Repay submitted and they came back with an appropriate refund on the CDR but blatently ignored the SSS (they basically said they were ignoring it). I have contested this and received a reply about an hour ago stating that the initial response was correct and that the refund is only due on Wakefield to Doncaster.

I find it incredulous that a scheme that was made to be (in some way) friendly to passengers is such a buggers muddle!

Maybe TOCs are trying to add so many obstacles that folk don't bother. The refund on the SSS would be sizeable (over £20) so I want to fight (plus not let them win) but one has to wonder

If we aren't able to chase this one up internally with any success, then I would imagine that a straightup LBA is the best approach to a "big" claim like this.

That's the difficulty with smaller claims; yes you can send an LBA but it has less credibility than when there's a fair amount at stake.

 

[_toommm_]

I feel the need to bump this as I am currently experiencing the same issue.

My tickets were a Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster CDR (cheaper than a single!) and a Super Off Peak Single from Doncaster to London Terminals (the saving was a few quid over a through "SSS")

The train from Wakefield was cancelled (on a Northern strike day so there was nothing in between) and so I had to catch one half an hour later and this arrived in London around 10L off its booked time (so around 40L in total)

Delay Repay submitted and they came back with an appropriate refund on the CDR but blatently ignored the SSS (they basically said they were ignoring it). I have contested this and received a reply about an hour ago stating that the initial response was correct and that the refund is only due on Wakefield to Doncaster.

I find it incredulous that a scheme that was made to be (in some way) friendly to passengers is such a buggers muddle!

Maybe TOCs are trying to add so many obstacles that folk don't bother. The refund on the SSS would be sizeable (over £20) so I want to fight (plus not let them win) but one has to wonder

Like others have said write to David Horne and you may be as lucky as the OP. I know these hurdles shouldn't have to be jumped through, but one wonders whether, on a personal level, it actually works out better for the passenger in the end..

 

[BigCj34]

I feel the need to bump this as I am currently experiencing the same issue.

My tickets were a Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster CDR (cheaper than a single!) and a Super Off Peak Single from Doncaster to London Terminals (the saving was a few quid over a through "SSS")

The train from Wakefield was cancelled (on a Northern strike day so there was nothing in between) and so I had to catch one half an hour later and this arrived in London around 10L off its booked time (so around 40L in total)

Delay Repay submitted and they came back with an appropriate refund on the CDR but blatently ignored the SSS (they basically said they were ignoring it). I have contested this and received a reply about an hour ago stating that the initial response was correct and that the refund is only due on Wakefield to Doncaster.

I find it incredulous that a scheme that was made to be (in some way) friendly to passengers is such a buggers muddle!

Maybe TOCs are trying to add so many obstacles that folk don't bother. The refund on the SSS would be sizeable (over £20) so I want to fight (plus not let them win) but one has to wonder

Fight the good fight! Just won a 'battle' against European rail bureaucracies about a cancelled train when Interrailing. All i can suggest is what I did, writing to the MD and his PA. It does need some media publicity with consumer advocacy groups, such as Martin Lewis, and possibly Which? and the Guardian

 

[BigCj34]

If we aren't able to chase this one up internally with any success, then I would imagine that a straightup LBA is the best approach to a "big" claim like this.

That's the difficulty with smaller claims; yes you can send an LBA but it has less credibility than when there's a fair amount at stake.

What's an LBA?

 

[Crossover]

What's an LBA?

Letter Before Action

"A letter before action is the last letter you should send before commencing legal action to recover a debt." (from here)

 

[sheff1]

Finally got this sorted after writing to David Horne (response penned by Mike Ross), who has stated that the £6.80 will be reimbursed and that that the issue has been passed onto relevant departments and staff retraining will take place where required.

Well it would appear the "required" retraining has either not taken place, or has been ineffective.

I submitted a claim to LNER for a journey using two split Advance tickets. My booked train from Doncaster to Peterborough was cancelled, which meant I missed the XC connection to East Anglia and eventually arrived at my destination station 84 mins late. The claim was 'settled' by LNER, but only for 50% of the first ticket, rather than the full amount of both tickets.

It gets worse, though, as in their letter LNER state:

"As you purchased two Advance single tickets for our entire journey we are unable to take into account any potential missed services as these are not connecting services when individual tickets are purchased" {my bold}

which surely goes against the contractual details documented in the NRCoT.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well it would appear the "required" retraining has either not taken place, or has been ineffective.

I submitted a claim to LNER for a journey using two split Advance tickets. My booked train from Doncaster to Peterborough was cancelled, which meant I missed the XC connection to East Anglia and eventually arrived at my destination station 84 mins late. The claim was 'settled' by LNER, but only for 50% of the first ticket, rather than the full amount of both tickets.

It gets worse, though, as in their letter LNER state:
which surely goes against the contractual details documented in the NRCoT.

At the first instance I would respond to them asking them why, if they admit that you made just one journey, they suddenly no longer constitute connecting services. Ask them where in their Passenger's Charter they state they will not pay compensation on combinations of tickets!

Oh dear, nowhere? Well then, they'd better go raid their piggy bank and pay the hell up. If this was a ticketless passenger using the same excuse to only pay for part of their journey because "the other train was not a connecting service", you can be sure it would be pursued vigorously as a potential RoRA matter. There is no excuse for train companies being allowed to get away with the opposite with impunity.

 

[Crossover]

I feel the need to bump this as I am currently experiencing the same issue.

My tickets were a Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster CDR (cheaper than a single!) and a Super Off Peak Single from Doncaster to London Terminals (the saving was a few quid over a through "SSS")

The train from Wakefield was cancelled (on a Northern strike day so there was nothing in between) and so I had to catch one half an hour later and this arrived in London around 10L off its booked time (so around 40L in total)

Delay Repay submitted and they came back with an appropriate refund on the CDR but blatently ignored the SSS (they basically said they were ignoring it). I have contested this and received a reply about an hour ago stating that the initial response was correct and that the refund is only due on Wakefield to Doncaster.

I find it incredulous that a scheme that was made to be (in some way) friendly to passengers is such a buggers muddle!

Maybe TOCs are trying to add so many obstacles that folk don't bother. The refund on the SSS would be sizeable (over £20) so I want to fight (plus not let them win) but one has to wonder

As a quick update on this, I took this to Transport Focus back at the end of November setting out my expectations (I know from a previous issue with another TOC they wrote back asking this so I included it from the off). They have taken nigh on the full time available to come back, but I am pleased to say payment has been agreed, which I await being transferred to my account.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the update. Anyone else in this position should keep chasing it and hopefully they will realise it's cheaper to pay up in the first place, and give up trying to diddle people.

 

[gray1404]

I agree with Yorkie that people in this position need to fight it. I am waiting to hear about a case with the new Ombudsman and see if they take the correct stance on this issue.

In this case, I wonder if LNER paid up following Transport Focus involvement as a goodwill gesture (I don't believe for one moment they have any goodwill!) or if it was on the basis they got it wrong in the first place so are correcting their mistake.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I agree with Yorkie that people in this position need to fight it. I am waiting to hear about a case with the new Ombudsman and see if they take the correct stance on this issue.

In this case, I wonder if LNER paid up following Transport Focus involvement as a goodwill gesture (I don't believe for one moment they have any goodwill!) or if it was on the basis they got it wrong in the first place so are correcting their mistake.

The term "goodwill gesture" doesn't really have the same meaning in today's rail industry as it might historically have had. It often means something nearer "fob-off payment"!

 

[Crossover]

The words "goodwill gesture" were not mentioned, which I can only see as a good thing!