Split ticket with The Key

[redstar]

I have an annual season ticket on "The Key" (Southern's ITSO smartcard), Reigate - London zones 1-6.

Say I want to travel to Gatwick Airport. Let's say it's off peak.

My season ticket will get me as far as Redhill so I should just need an off peak gold card single from Redhill to Gatwick Airport, cost £2.35, to complete my journey.

But can I do this in practice with "The Key" if I want to travel on a direct train from Reigate to Gatwick Airport and not get out at Redhill?

In other words, can I:
a) buy a Redhill-Gatwick ticket online but have it loaded onto my smart card automatically as I pass through the ticket gates at Reigate?
b) if I do, will the system understand when I touch out at Gatwick that I have a valid ticket for the journey, even though the ticket that I was using when I touched in at Reigate was my season ticket and not the same ticket as was valid for my touch out?

Does anyone know what information ticket inspectors can see from Key smartcards? e.g. can they see all the tickets loaded onto the card, or just one, that the system thinks is active?

Has anyone tried doing journeys like this with The Key?

 

[LexyBoy]

My season ticket will get me as far as Redhill so I should just need an off peak gold card single from Redhill to Gatwick Airport, cost £2.35, to complete my journey.

That is correct in line with the NRCoC, yes. Additional T&Cs apply to the use of "the Key" however.

But can I do this in practice with "The Key" if I want to travel on a direct train from Reigate to Gatwick Airport and not get out at Redhill?

In practice, I don't know for certain but I suspect that you will not get out at Gatwick and may be charged a new ticket or Penalty Fared if a ticket inspection occurs.

In other words, can I:
a) buy a Redhill-Gatwick ticket online but have it loaded onto my smart card automatically as I pass through the ticket gates at Reigate?

AIUI, there are two steps to using smartcard tickets. First, the ticket must be downloaded onto the card - having not used them I don't know whether this is at a nominated station or any station which is part of that particular scheme. The second part is "validation" which registers the ticket as being used to commence a journey. This needs to occur at the starting station of the ticket (or possibly stations en-route).

Clearly the validation can't occur without a touch-in at Redhill. Touching in and out for each "journey" is also mandated by the "the Key" T&Cs:

All tickets held on the key require validation at the start and end of the journey, failure to do so could lead to a penalty fare being issued

I take "journey" in this context to mean that of the ticket, not your journey - as otherwise touching in and out would not be possible for journeys which venture outwith the area covered by "the Key". OTOH, so long as you do touch in at your starting station, you could argue that you're not breaking the terms - this may not hold much water however as you would not be validating the ticket.

b) if I do, will the system understand when I touch out at Gatwick that I have a valid ticket for the journey, even though the ticket that I was using when I touched in at Reigate was my season ticket and not the same ticket as was valid for my touch out?

If the system validates both tickets required for the journey at Reigate, then yes as it would register a ticket with the destination of Gatwick. As above though, I'm pretty confident that it would only validate your season ticket.

Does anyone know what information ticket inspectors can see from Key smartcards? e.g. can they see all the tickets loaded onto the card, or just one, that the system thinks is active?

I think they can see all tickets and journey history, but can't amend or validate tickets held.

Has anyone tried doing journeys like this with The Key?

I would be interested to hear experiences too.

Have you tried asking Southern? It would be interesting to hear what they say - and if they say that you'd have to detrain and touch in/out then I'd like to hear their rationale for restricting the rights of passengers using valid tickets.

 

[redstar]

Thanks for the reply.

My reading of the NRCoC and the Key terms and conditions were that you had to touch in and out at the start and end of the journey ("Key" requirement), and that you had to have one or more tickets covering the journey (NRCoC requirement). I think it would be unreasonable to require a touch on a reader when changing tickets (but that doesn't mean that someone doesn't think the opposite). If they'd really intended that, would they not have written something in the Key terms and conditions along the lines of: All tickets held on the key require validation at the start and end of the portion of a journey covered by that ticket?

I had an interesting experience the first time I used a standard return ticket on my Key card at the same time as I had my annual season ticket loaded on there. I had my Reigate to all zones season, and then I bought a return from Reigate to a south coast destination. Same starting station this time.

Part way through the journey, somewhere south of Gatwick, a ticket inspector checked my card and with a raised eyebrow said something like "Reigate to London travelcard?". I said that there should be a day return ticket on there too. He pressed a few more buttons and then said fine. My card opened the barrier at my destination without any trouble.

That would suggest that the season ticket had been validated at the start of the journey but of course it wasn't the ticket that was needed for my journey that day.

Thinking about it, if I have more than one potentially valid ticket for my departure station, the system can never be expected to know which one I'm using until I've completed the journey. So that makes me even more certain that the scenario I described initially would also be fine. I still have tickets that are sufficient for the journey I'm making; I still touched in and out at the start and end; and the system does ultimately know what journey I made and can check (and mark as used) a relevant ticket. Furthermore, if the 'touched in' point is visible to the ticket inspector, then they can also check that I hold valid ticket(s) for the journey.

I think GTR have to make this work: particularly with London travelcard season tickets, journeys partly on the season ticket and partly not are surely very common and need to be supported.

Really interested in any other views and other people's experiences.

 

[yorkie]

...
I take "journey" in this context to mean that of the ticket, not your journey -....

Sorry but GTR will have to accept they cannot redefine journey (any more than they can redefine any other term, such as Company)

 

[Muzer]

Sorry but GTR will have to accept they cannot redefine journey (any more than they can redefine any other term, such as Company)

Well, they can, if they've defined it in a list of definitions. I'm not a lawyer, but it happens all the time in the legal world. For example, in the draft for a recent bill I was looking at, it had a definition along the lines of:

"X includes things which are not X"

Extreme example, I know, but if you can have such crazy definitions in other fields, I see no reason why you can't have definitions that mean things other than the standard meaning of the word in other documents. Obviously though it would have to be clearly defined somewhere in said document, which "journey" isn't here AFAICT.

 

[yorkie]

Well, no they can't. Although "journey" isn't defined in the NRCoC, it is made clear you may use a combination of tickets for one journey, and it's pretty clear that a journey (by rail) is from where you start your journey to where you finish it. Yes things may be a little less clear with add-ons for other modes but we're talking about a simple rail journey.

 

[Muzer]

I certainly agree that, here, it's reasonable to assume the definition of "journey" as used by the industry elsewhere, as they haven't even made an attempt to redefine it. But I wouldn't want to try it, since, well, frankly, there's no point in getting a season ticket on The Key when you can get a paper one.


(And the example I was looking for above, a friend reminded me, is "data includes information that is not data.". How barmy is that!)

 

[yorkie]

...there's no point in getting a season ticket on The Key when you can get a paper one....

And that is key. Pardon the pun!

I'm boycotting any "smart"/"electronic" ticketing unless it offers me a clear benefit with no risk of dis-benefits.

There is a risk that The Key may either reduce our rights, or give us more hassle. Unless someone is keen to assert our rights on such products, or unless someone obtains guarantees from the relevant Train Company (GTR in this case) that our rights are not eroded by using such products, it is best to simply avoid them.

If anyone can obtain such clarification, it would be great if it could be posted here!

 

[paul1609]

I certainly agree that, here, it's reasonable to assume the definition of "journey" as used by the industry elsewhere, as they haven't even made an attempt to redefine it. But I wouldn't want to try it, since, well, frankly, there's no point in getting a season ticket on The Key when you can get a paper one.


(And the example I was looking for above, a friend reminded me, is "data includes information that is not data.". How barmy is that!)

You've obviously never commuted on a barriered railway with a paper season ticket. At every barrier you take your wallet out of your pocket, take your season ticket out, take the ticket out of the wallet and place in the machine, then reverse the process to put it away again-all with a coffee in the other hand- its a pain in the arse!

 

[maniacmartin]

The only benefit I see to smartcards is that you get more than one re-issue if you are prone to losing things.

 

[Muzer]

You've obviously never commuted on a barriered railway with a paper season ticket. At every barrier you take your wallet out of your pocket, take your season ticket out, take the ticket out of the wallet and place in the machine, then reverse the process to put it away again-all with a coffee in the other hand- its a pain in the arse!

I have actually, and I agree that having a smartcard is nice in such instances. What I should have said is that the benefits of just a small amount of extra convenience are not worth the drawbacks of the restricted use cases (at least in practice if not going by the letter of the rules).

 

[Hadders]

I have actually, and I agree that having a smartcard is nice in such instances. What I should have said is that the benefits of just a small amount of extra convenience are not worth the drawbacks of the restricted use cases (at least in practice if not going by the letter of the rules).

Quite. Consider a Stevenage - King Cross season ticket on The Key:

- You can't use the faster VTEC services
- uncertainty of the validity of split tickets when making a longer journey
- use of the Underground between Kings Cross and Moorgate doubtful
- if issued as a travelcard be prepared for a battle if using a bus
- no more likely to open barriers than a paper ticket if reports on this forum are to be believed

 

[redstar]

The first three of those reasons might still apply but I'm sure the last two must just have been teething problems.

I've been using a travelcard season on The Key for nearly a year now and have never had it fail to open a ticket gate on LU or national rail, nor had a failure on a bus. I must have been through about 1,000 ticket barriers with it by now.

Paper tickets used to survive about 6 months at best.

I may have an occasion to try out a split ticket journey in the next few weeks. I will report back if I do.

 

[LexyBoy]

My reading of the NRCoC and the Key terms and conditions were that you had to touch in and out at the start and end of the journey ("Key" requirement), and that you had to have one or more tickets covering the journey (NRCoC requirement). I think it would be unreasonable to require a touch on a reader when changing tickets (but that doesn't mean that someone doesn't think the opposite). If they'd really intended that, would they not have written something in the Key terms and conditions along the lines of: All tickets held on the key require validation at the start and end of the portion of a journey covered by that ticket?

In that case I would ask them how to "validate" the ticket at the start of this journey. I'd also ask how to validate tickets when the start and/or end station does not have a Key reader.

The T&Cs look pretty hastily written and I doubt much thought went into them. The term "journey" is also used somewhat interchangeably in the Routeing Guide, and many argue that it can have either meaning depending on the context here. (Here's my argument from a previous thread.)

Sorry but GTR will have to accept they cannot redefine journey (any more than they can redefine any other term, such as Company)

Agreed, but they could amend the Terms as suggested by redstar to remove any ambiguity over the interpretation of "journey".

Quite. Consider a Stevenage - King Cross season ticket on The Key:

- You can't use the faster VTEC services

Really? There is an Any Permitted smartcard fare which would be valid. Alarmingly though there doesn't seem to be a Thamelink Only paper fare - I wasn't aware that the withdrawal of proper tickets had started yet, or was there no such fare beforehand?

You've obviously never commuted on a barriered railway with a paper season ticket. At every barrier you take your wallet out of your pocket, take your season ticket out, take the ticket out of the wallet and place in the machine, then reverse the process to put it away again-all with a coffee in the other hand- its a pain in the arse!

I have two bus passes and an Oyster card in my ticket wallet; when I get a bus I still have to do exactly the same as the system isn't smart enough to distinguish them.

 

[Hadders]

Really? There is an Any Permitted smartcard fare which would be valid. Alarmingly though there doesn't seem to be a Thamelink Only paper fare - I wasn't aware that the withdrawal of proper tickets had started yet, or was there no such fare beforehand?

Thameslink's FAQs on The Key state

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions/the-key#18

Can I use my key season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast services?

No. For travel between Stevenage and London, the key is only valid on Great Northern services. Currently Virgin Trains East Coast are not able to accept the key on their services.

As for fares there are 'Any Permitted' and 'Great Northern Only' fares listed for smartcards. In practice I suspect you'd only ever be sold a 'great Northern Only' ticket on The Key. A significant disbenefit for Stevenage passengers.

 

[paul1609]

Quite. Consider a Stevenage - King Cross season ticket on The Key:

- You can't use the faster VTEC services
- uncertainty of the validity of split tickets when making a longer journey
- use of the Underground between Kings Cross and Moorgate doubtful
- if issued as a travelcard be prepared for a battle if using a bus
- no more likely to open barriers than a paper ticket if reports on this forum are to be believed

I dont really travel much on those routes but Ive never had an issue with using a travelcard key on the bus. Barrier operation is more or less perfect with my key.
With split tickets I envariably buy the split from the guard on a train as a paper ticket or using the buy from another station button on a GTR TVM.

 

[island]

You've obviously never commuted on a barriered railway with a paper season ticket. At every barrier you take your wallet out of your pocket, take your season ticket out, take the ticket out of the wallet and place in the machine, then reverse the process to put it away again-all with a coffee in the other hand- its a pain in the arse!

Seek Assistance
09

 

[londonbridge]

If there is an 'any permitted' smartcard fare between Stevenage and Kings Cross then my understanding would be that VTEC HAVE to accept it (The Key), as it's not the fault of the passenger if the TOC doesn't have the necessary equipment to read the card.

 

[Hadders]

If there is an 'any permitted' smartcard fare between Stevenage and Kings Cross then my understanding would be that VTEC HAVE to accept it (The Key), as it's not the fault of the passenger if the TOC doesn't have the necessary equipment to read the card.

There is an 'Any Permitted' fare listed in Avantix Traveller but this doesn't mean it is available for sale!

In practice I believe you have the following choice:

- An 'Any Permitted' paper ticket
- A 'Great Northern Only' ticket issued on The Key (which is about 70p a week cheaper)

 

[RailLurker]

If you sign up for KeyGo, the system will allow you to travel to Gatwick and will only charge for the journey from Redhill to Gatwick (the portion of the journey outside the permitted route of your season ticket). The problem is that KeyGo does not yet support Railcards so the fare would not be discounted.

 

[redstar]

In other words, can I:
a) buy a Redhill-Gatwick ticket online but have it loaded onto my smart card automatically as I pass through the ticket gates at Reigate?
b) if I do, will the system understand when I touch out at Gatwick that I have a valid ticket for the journey, even though the ticket that I was using when I touched in at Reigate was my season ticket and not the same ticket as was valid for my touch out?

I had an opportunity to try this recently.

The answer to (a) is yes: I was able to buy a Redhill-Gatwick ticket for The Key and request it be available for pick up at Reigate. The system added it to my card as I passed through the barriers at Reigate some time before the day I was going to use the ticket.

The answer to (b) is also yes: I had no trouble exiting the barriers at Gatwick Airport station.

Two interesting things happened.

Firstly, when I touched in at Reigate to begin my journey to Gatwick (using one of the stand-alone readers as the barriers were not in use), the display on the reader said "Single ticket" or words to that effect. Even though I didn't have a single ticket that started at Reigate, the system seemed to have decided that it was a ticket I was using in some way for the journey (or else it was just telling me that I had a single ticket on my card that was valid for the day).

I wonder what would have happened if I had made two journeys that day: one entirely using my season ticket, and second one entirely using the single ticket. Would the system have marked my single ticket as used after the first journey?

Secondly, on my return trip from Gatwick to Reigate (using another single Gatwick to Redhill ticket, plus my Reigate-London travelcard), when I touched out at Reigate, the system said "Journey suspended" rather than the usual "Journey ended" or whatever, which seemed odd. I guess that's because I touched out at a station other than the destination of the single ticket.

So from this I conclude that it "kind of works" but that the logic in the system isn't quite right for journeys involving more than one ticket (and maybe not even for the case where there are multiple tickets on the card that are valid on a particular day).

My ticket was checked on the way back, but not on the way so I can't add any information about what the ticket inspector would have seen during my outbound (REI-GTW) journey.