Splitting the Northern line

[Sad Sprinter]

I think my reason for looking for interesting systems goes back to my childhood. Rarely a few weeks went by without my being taken to visit my maternal grandparents and the relatives they lived with. Until we moved, when I was six-and-a-half, this trip entailed using the Piccadilly Line between Hammersmith and South Harrow. Even at that age, I was incredibly fascinated by what went on at Acton Town, with the two Underground lines both branching, and the complex (to me) track layout. Add in the South Acton one-carriage shuttle, and I was hooked.

Yes I remember my first journey beyond Hammersmith on the District when I was the same age. I was amazed by the speed of the Piccadilly Line trains thundering through Turnham Green and thought it must be a main line railway! Also remember going to Acton Town at age 5 to go to the Transport Depot there and being amazed and the workings there too. Still have the photographs we took of the comings and goings of the Piccadilly trains

Then splitting would fail. The current service is pretty much up to the maximum, which on an urban Metro is principally driven by station dwell and reoccupation times. You can rebuild Camden for wide, straight, cross-platform changing as much as you like, but if half the train has to get out and another half get in, peak period dwell times there would go out of the window.

Yes, and the Edgware and High Barnet platforms aren’t exactly aligned like the cross-platform interchanges on the Victoria Line are. Changing at Camden Town for every journey would be unpleasant to say the least. I say keep the Northern Line as it is.

To be honest, down south what we’d really need is express tubes. Breaking the Kennington loop and running an express down to tooting as per the post war plans would have been great. Especially in the pre-COVID morning rush - which was truly an amazement in some ways. Trains stacked in the tunnel between Balham and Clapham South and still the platforms were full.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, and the Edgware and High Barnet platforms aren’t exactly aligned like the cross-platform interchanges on the Victoria Line are. Changing at Camden Town for every journey would be unpleasant to say the least. I say keep the Northern Line as it is.

I imagine a split would increase the number of people using the cross platform interchange at Euston for the Victoria Line to access the West End (instead of changing from a Bank train to a Charing Cross train at Camden) which would presumably then cause overcrowding issues on the Victoria Line, especially the overloaded Oxford Circus.

 

[thomalex]

I've always quite liked the Southern line myself for the Bank branch. It is the line that reaches the furthest south, is a nod to lines heritage "City and South London Railway" and well as the Northern line. I'd go for a nice light green.

Like the idea of having the branches with both lines as a temporary solution with them being clearly separate lines through the central area. When I first moved to London it look me some time to get my head around the idea of the same line travelling through areas as wide apart as the City and the West End so I can imagine it's quite confusing for tourists.

 

[PTR 444]

I've always quite like the Southern line myself for the Bank branch. It is the line that reaches the furthest south, is a nod to lines heritage "City and South London Railway" and well as the Northern line. I'd go for a nice light green.

That will just cause confusion with Southern (TOC).

 

[nw1]

I couldn't agree more, part of train enthusiasm is how interesting a system is rather that its efficiency. The NYC subway for example, with all its routes, branches and overlapping lines is a nightmare for efficiency, but I wouldn't have it any other way

I remember being struck by the four-track nature of part of the NYC subway and certain routes running fast through certain stations when I visited.

 

[SynthD]

With the reduction in commuting associated with the increase in WFH, is there still a good business case for increasing frequencies on the Northern line, re-building Camden Town station, and splitting the Northern line?

Yes. The earliest date of when the split was "necessary" could have been before Covid, and we will shortly be back to those passenger numbers.

Crossrail 2 is the express line.

 

[nw1]

I couldn't agree more, part of train enthusiasm is how interesting a system is rather that its efficiency. The NYC subway for example, with all its routes, branches and overlapping lines is a nightmare for efficiency, but I wouldn't have it any other way

Also, this also sums up why I much preferred 80s and 90s XC to the current version.

 

[CaptainBen]

I would go for Greathead Line (via Bank) and Yerkes Line (via Charing Cross). I hate multiword names like City & South London, Hammersmith & City, Waterloo & City. Having City in the name is especially redundant.. where would an underground railway be but in a city.

They aren't in just any city. They're in the City. Definite article. I'm sure that's important.

 

[Mr. SW]

I would go for Greathead Line (via Bank) and Yerkes Line (via Charing Cross).

Beware of the trap of naming things after the obscure, esoteric and difficult to explain. It may be fun to do, but it should be avoided. We've already got the inexplicably abstract 'District' and 'Jubilee', the 'Circle' that isn't, the 'Metropolitan' that isn't really either, and the 'Bakerloo' which defies any definition. If you are going to name lines after personalities, there are better-known people associated with London than Greathead, and as for 'Yerkes' - that's a big 'No'.

However, that's all academic anyway, as until/when/if the line is split, nothing will be happening.

Back on topic now: Has anyone costed up the possible cash savings after splitting the line and removing redundant equipment? If you consider it takes say [conjuring figures out of the sky here] £1 to change a set of points and 50p maintenance every time you run a service over them. This would be for 12 points (8 at Camden, 4 at Kennington), then multiply by how many services a day, 364 days a year. That all mounts up. There would even be a saving just by locking the points up. Anyone with better figures?

 

[MikeWh]

Beware of the trap of naming things after the obscure, esoteric and difficult to explain. It may be fun to do, but it should be avoided. We've already got the inexplicably abstract 'District' and 'Jubilee', the 'Circle' that isn't, the 'Metropolitan' that isn't really either, and the 'Bakerloo' which defies any definition.

District and Metropolitan might be difficult to explain, but Jubilee was for the Queens Silver (I think) Jubilee, and it's quite easy to explain how Baker Street to Waterloo became Bakerloo. Yeah, the circle isn't a circle anymore, but the trains do complete the circle between Edgware Road and Edgware Road, so it's not that hard to understand.

 

[Lucan]

Beware of the trap of naming things after the obscure, esoteric and difficult to explain. It may be fun to do, but it should be avoided. We've already got the inexplicably abstract 'District' and 'Jubilee', the 'Circle' that isn't, the 'Metropolitan' that isn't really either, and the 'Bakerloo' which defies any definition.

I don't agree, and who is asking for them to be explained? I was using the Underground for years without expecting the names to be explained, or even giving them a thought. "Piccadilly and Victoria were obvious as they went there, but the reason for "Bakerloo" never even occurred to me - I didn't care, they were just useful and memorable handles. Only in more recent years have I become more interested in the lines' histories and learned the origins.

Abstract names focus on the line itself rather than referring to something outside of it, unless, in the case of railways, the something outside is an associated geographical feature like Piccadilly. Marketing people know this, the classic example being "Kodak". Such names should be easy to remember and roll off the tongue of course.

 

[urbophile]

That will just cause confusion with Southern (TOC).

No more than Merseyrail's Northern Line does with the Northern TOC.