SSR resignalling

[Railguy1]

If the train has to stop, how can the statement ”will not impact on journey times” be true?

 

[bluegoblin7]

The brief (< 1 minute) stop is mitigated by the increased speed limits and acceleration rates and the reduced run times, as well as allowing trains to get closer together. Given the regular congestion experienced both on the north and south it is unlikely to be noticeable.

 

[Mldaureol]

Is Baker St SCC (Met) closing tonight / Sat morning after the last train or is it open over the weekend during the testing / implementation of the new Control area between Finchley Rd and Preston Rd.

 

[Dstock7080]

Baker Street SC will close tonight.

 

[Bald Rick]

Baker Street SC will close tonight.

Somebody should write a song about that, perhaps with a moody saxophone solo.

 

[Kay_M]

Baker Street SC will close tonight.

Where are they moving to? Hammersmith

 

[Dstock7080]

Yes, to join the Line Controllers and other service operators

 

[bluegoblin7]

Yes, to join the Line Controllers and other service operators

Top level yes, in terms of where signalling control for the area is going. The slightly expanded answer is that some staff will be directly transferring to Hammersmith as SCL1 (the grade of the signallers at Hammersmith, controllers being SCL2), some have opted to move to the remaining Met cabins, some are retiring and some are moving to the Neasden TMR (Train Movements Room).

Is Baker St SCC (Met) closing tonight

It is also worth mentioning that what is closing tonight is the 'interim' signalling cupboard room created at Baker Street to bridge the gap between the initial expected SMA8 go-live date and the space the old one occupied being required for the Bakerloo Interim Control Upgrade. London Underground's newest control room (opened 08/2024 - I have two conflicting sources on the exact date) is about to become its most recently disused. I think this is a new record.

 

[Silent]

This morning got the Met it seemed faster between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. I don’t know if the signalling has been changed yet. For once the Jubilee line out of Wembley Park didn’t overtake the Met line like it usually does though it almost did. When the Met line goes fast, which it did today, between Kilburn and West Hampstead it usually causes me a bit anxiety I think because it’s downhill and it usually slows down. I remember when cbtc was turned on between Baker Street and Finchley Road. The Met Line overly fast or noticeably faster but I think the speed was made to feel smoother overtime as it would accelerate and decelerate more at first.

 

[Dstock7080]

I don’t know if the signalling has been changed yet.

Commissioned on Saturday morning.

 

[Scotrail88]

Commissioned on Saturday morning.

What’s the speed improvements following this?

 

[Dstock7080]

What’s the speed improvements following this?

As with the District, up to 62mph maximum in certain sections.

 

[Railperf]

What’s the speed improvements following this?

officially 100kph (62mph) on certain sections, though the ATO system seems to have more minor lower restictions programmed in - notably at Neasden where it slows down more than some of the trains did previously.

Overall the difference being that given enough distance between trains, ATO will deliver a consistent journey time and performance between stations where previously there was a larger time difference based on drivers individual driving styles.
You wll fee the quicker acceleration and most trains will reach 100kph whereas in manual mode the S stock was rather slow to reach 60mph, and drivers often opted for speeds between 48 to 56mph.
But the speed changes fairly frequently, the headline 100kph being sustained from Kilburn to Dollis Hill northbound and mainly south of Neasden to just before west Hampstead southbound, which feels quite lively if you are used to ambling in to Finchley Road
To be fair the timetable only demands 7 minutes from Finchley Road to wembey Park, so drivers cuould achieve that with a 50mph speed ceiling. The timetable seems to be based on long scrapped A-stock 50mph timings!
ATO improves the actual journey time to 6 minutes, closer to 5.5!

North of wembley, the signalling changeover at the boundary seems to extend journey times for the semi-fast trains not stopping at Preston Road or Northwick Park slightly - but under the current timetable there are more semi-fast trains although fewer trains on the met network than normal. So if you are heading north of Wembley, there is a chance you could end up on a faster service than a stopper. I think the Amersham Chesham and some Watford's are semi-fast right through the day!

 

[Mojo]

North of wembley, the signalling changeover at the boundary seems to extend journey times for the semi-fast trains not stopping at Preston Road or Northwick Park slightly - but under the current timetable there are more semi-fast trains although fewer trains on the met network than normal. So if you are heading north of Wembley, there is a chance you could end up on a faster service than a stopper. I think the Amersham Chesham and some Watford's are semi-fast right through the day!

The Amersham and Chesham services are running Semifast (calling at Wembley Pk) during the daytimes and evenings when they would otherwise run all stations. It’s worth pointing out that this timetable notice is only for Mon-Thurs, the normal timetable will resume on Friday.

 

[Railperf]

It is supposed to revert to a temporary summer timetable - which is not the published WTT dated January. Slightly annoying that the temp timetable does not seem to be published anywhere.

 

[cle]

Will this get beyond Harrow? More journey time savings to be made up to Moor Park, I would say.

 

[Dstock7080]

Will this get beyond Harrow? More journey time savings to be made up to Moor Park, I would say.

Yes, next for the MET is SMA 9 Preston Road-West Harrow/Moor Park, likely early-2026.

 

[Railperf]

Will this get beyond Harrow? More journey time savings to be made up to Moor Park, I would say.

The project is not just about speed , though the time savings are welcome. It is also about capacity and being able to run more trains closer together.

 

[Snow1964]

Update is provided in latest TfL Board papers, Programmes and Investment Committee, ahead of next weeks meeting

section 7.1.5 says SMA14 (Rayners Lane - Uxbridge) is expected to go live in 2027, and programme close out will be 2028 once software optimisations completed.

Section 7.1 has a table showing final expected cost is £5,622 million

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s24242/pic20250702-item06a-part1-investment%20Programmes%20Report.pdf

 

[Nym]

Update is provided in latest TfL Board papers, Programmes and Investment Committee, ahead of next weeks meeting

section 7.1.5 says SMA14 (Rayners Lane - Uxbridge) is expected to go live in 2027, and programme close out will be 2028 once software optimisations completed.

Section 7.1 has a table showing final expected cost is £5,622 million

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s24242/pic20250702-item06a-part1-investment%20Programmes%20Report.pdf

Is that £5.6b "With a B" only for the Thales contract, or does it also include the aborted costs of the Siemens Invensys and the Bombardier contracts as well...?

 

[zwk500]

Is that £5.6b "With a B" only for the Thales contract, or does it also include the aborted costs of the Siemens Invensys and the Bombardier contracts as well...?

You'd have to go back through all the minutes to identify a step change when the contracts were changed, but this graph:

(Image of bar chart showing break down of costs and estimated time of completion in Quarter-years)

The current Thales contract was awarded in mid-2015 (going from the Wiki source, open to correction), so this seems to be the new benchmark. However, the fact the Spend at this new start date is nearly £3.5bn suggests they are including at least the Siemens and Bombardier Contracts (again, this is not explicit, so I may be very wrong). It's not clear if anything from the Metronet agreement is included (again, it'd need going back through the papers).

 

[starlight73]

Is this figure for the whole of the 4 lines modernisation - including the S stock trains?

section 7.1.7 on the page after the graph says ’the programme […] has already provided 92 192 [corrected!] modern, air-conditioned walk-through trains’

 

[Snow1964]

Is this figure for the whole of the 4 lines modernisation - including the S stock trains?

section 7.1.7 on the page after the graph says ’the programme […] has already provided 92 modern, air-conditioned walk-through trains’

Yes, it is the capital expenditure (purchase, installation, commissioning) of new signalling and trains, plus some alterations to infrastructure to accommodate it.

Does not include the routine running / operating costs

 

[Dstock7080]

Is this figure for the whole of the 4 lines modernisation - including the S stock trains?

section 7.1.7 on the page after the graph says ’the programme […] has already provided 192 modern, air-conditioned walk-through trains’

192 S Stock trains

 

[rebmcr]

programme close out will be 2028

Is there any indication which SMAs will be indefinitely deferred, as of that date?

 

[bluegoblin7]

10 beyond Stamford Brook
11 in its entirety
12 beyond East Putney

Despite (unfounded) rumours and consternation to the contrary from some so-called “experts” there are no plans to descope the Metropolitan line (for now…!).

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any indication which SMAs will be indefinitely deferred, as of that date?

No update on what will happen to descoped parts (District south of Fulham area, west of Stamford Brook), and Ealing depot (sometimes called Ealing radio island, as it allowed testing before exiting depot).

Metropolitan will be completed as its signalling equipment is older, and patching it up for years is likely to cost more than finishing the replacement.

Eventually the descoped sections will end up with equipment which has become non standard (as it will be relatively small part of network), and probably be harder to get spares and maintain. But for time being seems to be in the defer for next 5, 10, 15, 20 years (or whenever) category.

 

[Belperpete]

No update on what will happen to descoped parts (District south of Fulham area, west of Stamford Brook), and Ealing depot (sometimes called Ealing radio island, as it allowed testing before exiting depot).

Does that mean the problems with the platform indicators at places like West Brompton (no clue where the trains are going; to) and Earls Court (no clue about trains coming from the Wimbledon direction until a few minutes before they arrive) that were caused by the SSR are going to continue indefinitely?

 

[Snow1964]

Does that mean the problems with the platform indicators at places like West Brompton (no clue where the trains are going; to) and Earls Court (no clue about trains coming from the Wimbledon direction until a few minutes before they arrive) that were caused by the SSR are going to continue indefinitely?

The TfL Board papers in post #439 say last migration in 2027, and project close 2028 after some final updates.

My guess is these final updates will fix the rogue or missing bits (if not done in the meantime), as would be rather naff to deliberately leave known problems after spending £ 5.6bn

 

[Dstock7080]

Does that mean the problems with the platform indicators at places like West Brompton (no clue where the trains are going; to) and Earls Court (no clue about trains coming from the Wimbledon direction until a few minutes before they arrive) that were caused by the SSR are going to continue indefinitely?

No update on what will happen to descoped parts (District south of Fulham area, west of Stamford Brook),

As said by @bluegoblin7 above, SMA12 Fulham Bdwy-East Putney will be commissioned, likely in early 2026.