St Helens deserves more direct trains to Glasgow than currently proposed

[Bevan Price]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/liverpool-to-glasgow-tpe.190919/

For those of us living in the St. Helens area, the proposed weekday services are totally useless.
From St. Helens Central, just one service to Glasgow - at 12:32 - and no corresponding return service.
And also a single train at 20:28 - to Oxenhome.
The only southbound service calling at St. Helens is to be a 05:48 Carlisle to Liverpool.

Nearby Lea Green gets just one train a day, a 12:05 Glasgow Central to Liverpool.
Does anyone seriously expect to attract passengers to such appalling services ?

There have been suggestions that the service may start with Class 185s until the 397s are available - there should be some spare 185s by then, as hopefully more Class 68s, and maybe some Class 802s should be available by then..

 

[Bertie the bus]

For those of us living in the St. Helens area, the proposed weekday services are totally useless.
From St. Helens Central, just one service to Glasgow - at 12:32 - and no corresponding return service.
And also a single train at 20:28 - to Oxenhome.
The only southbound service calling at St. Helens is to be a 05:48 Carlisle to Liverpool.

Nearby Lea Green gets just one train a day, a 12:05 Glasgow Central to Liverpool.
Does anyone seriously expect to attract passengers to such appalling services ?

St Helens has 3 tph to Wigan and Wigan has 2 tph to Scotland. Northbound it is either a same platform or cross-platform interchange. I think you are getting a bit carried away with comments like “completely useless” and “appalling service” just because a 3 trains per day service (or whatever Liverpool – Glasgow is going to be) doesn’t stop at St Helens.

 

[Bevan Price]

St Helens has 3 tph to Wigan and Wigan has 2 tph to Scotland. Northbound it is either a same platform or cross-platform interchange. I think you are getting a bit carried away with comments like “completely useless” and “appalling service” just because a 3 trains per day service (or whatever Liverpool – Glasgow is going to be) doesn’t stop at St Helens.

Sorry, but I can only disagree. I would even suggest that with such a pathetic offering, they might as well not stop any of the trains in the St. Helens area. When the Liverpool / Glasgow services were first announced, the related publicity implied that St. Helens would also benefit from those services -- even our local council seems to have been fooled to believe the same, judging from some of their publications.

 

[The Bear]

And also a single train at 20:28 - to Oxenhome.

Which at Oxenholme has the potential to cause chaos.
Having run north in the 10min gap between 9S97 and 1S88, 1C81 is booked to terminate in platform3 (the Windermere branch platform) 10mins after a Northern Windermere service has departed therefore blocking that Northern unit in on the branch.
The unit off 1C81 then sits in plat3 until 4M11 & 4M48 have passed on the UP and is booked to depart ECS to Preston 10mins before the Northern unit is due back into Oxenholme for its 5min connection with last south-bound mainline service that stops (1M95).

There have been suggestions that the service may start with Class 185s until the 397s are available - there should be some spare 185s by then, as hopefully more Class 68s, and maybe some Class 802s should be available by then..

Apparently that's the plan and there's very little room for error as most services north of York are timed for 125mph precluding the use of either 185s or 68+Mk5s.
I wouldn't be surprised either if displaced 185s from the eastern side are used in lieu of 350s on the Manc-Scots in view the financial penalties being levelled at TPE from West-Midlands from not handing the 350s back when planned.

 

[Camden]

Sorry, but I can only disagree. I would even suggest that with such a pathetic offering, they might as well not stop any of the trains in the St. Helens area. When the Liverpool / Glasgow services were first announced, the related publicity implied that St. Helens would also benefit from those services -- even our local council seems to have been fooled to believe the same, judging from some of their publications.

Agree it's pretty useless, but that's a symptom of the main service itself (Liverpool to Glasgow) being next to useless at just three trains per day. Perhaps also the council not lobbying for one station over another.

Should the service be made hourly, then a sensible choice between either Lea Green or St Helens would result in the town also benefiting from that. (Then the conversation will be how to stop Preston-Wigan-St Helens-Liverpool commuters from clogging up an intercity service!)

At least with the trains calling in principle already, it's not something you'll have to argue for as and when and if the time comes.

 

[xtradj]

I am glad they are finally or seemingly about to happen after years of needing Scottish Liverpool services.

However with just 3 per day its just never going to work. Pointless if anything especially as they fail to serve local Mersey regions ie St Helens

It's so much easier to just get a train to Bank Quay or Wigan and use the Virgin north, and that's what people will do.

 

[Camden]

People from St Helens will. Between Liverpool/Glasgow it will depend on pricing. If it's normal pricing then it will mostly just mop up those who are making the journey at that time of day anyway. Three a day is not enough to introduce the destination to either cities' populations' radars.

I'm not sure how this will pan out. It will take time to build up trade, after links have been so badly severed for so long, and I don't think this service cuts it to do that.

Also I'm unconvinced by the synergy that has been prescribed here. Liverpool to Edinburgh is a better match, re international tourists

 

[Djgr]

A key point is that there is a substantial group of passengers who strongly desire a through service with no changes. For this group several through trains a day is a huge benefit and all that they would want, rather than the opportunity to wait around at Wigan North Western buffet on a regular basis twice an hour.

As has been said many times on the forum Liverpool is particularly weak in terms of the number of city destinations available to it on through services, particularly taking into account its ever growing tourism and leisure traffic.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What is this substantial demand for passengers travelling from St Helens to Scotland and in particular Scotland to St Helens? Do Scots have a particular fascination with glass production? I accept through services are preferable to many people but I really don't believe there are throngs of Glaswegians desperate to sample the delights of St Helens.

 

[Camden]

I would expect the demand type from St Helens would be similar in nature to demand in Runcorn for travel to London. In this case, people traveling from St Helens and east Liverpool environs not needing to go miles in the wrong direction to get a train to Scotland from Lime Street.

I don't think there is anything wrong with stopping trains at "parkway" stations on the edge of cities, but in this case I think they do need to choose one station. And I can understand why people don't feel they're getting the value they had hoped for. It's clearly being done on a shoe string.

 

[swt_passenger]

How much bigger will TPE’s planned fleet of 397s need to be if this Liverpool service is increased?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I would expect the demand type from St Helens would be similar in nature to demand in Runcorn for travel to London. In this case, people traveling from St Helens and east Liverpool environs not needing to go miles in the wrong direction to get a train to Scotland from Lime Street.

Why would you expect that? What is it based on? Services from the North West to London are significantly busier than services from the North West to Scotland.

How much bigger will TPE’s planned fleet of 397s need to be if this Liverpool service is increased?

I simply can't see that happening. This 3 trains per day Liverpool - Glasgow is mainly show - look, we're improving services in the north and running new ones. I don't think it is a serious attempt to lay the foundations of a useful hourly service. There simply isn't demand north of Preston for 4 tph for a start.

 

[2812 Adam]

Also I'm unconvinced by the synergy that has been prescribed here. Liverpool to Edinburgh is a better match, re international tourists

There are plenty of international tourists visiting Glasgow, however i have seen a lot of VT/TPE services running to EDB busier than Glasgow services due to them not being very frequent (roughly 70/75 mins apart every other hour). If it would be possible get a service from LIV-EDB every two hours between those services they could be up with a winner there, covering the gap in service.

 

[Class 170101]

New path for a later TPE service out of GLC.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C03669/2019/12/18/advanced
Terminates in Preston but atleast its not only edinburgh that now has these.

Instead of the pathing stop at Carstairs why not call at Motherwell or go on a tour of Glasgow for route retention (diversion) purposes?

Said later train has already had stops taken out of it making it less useful.


There's also a late Man Airport-Carlisle service;
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y33472/2019/12/18/advanced
Again this has also had a stop taken out of it since appearing on RTT.

In case TPE need to use a DMU, presumably. Omitting Wigan allows diverting via Bolton, no idea why no Lancs stop (but VT operate the station....).

Seems odd ommitting all the intermediate stations north of Preston if cost is a factor surely it will cost TPE to pay Virgin for the Carlisle stop?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Seems odd ommitting all the intermediate stations north of Preston if cost is a factor surely it will cost TPE to pay Virgin for the Carlisle stop?

Carlisle is open for the sleeper which leaves at 0144.

Seems daft to run the train if you don't want to stop it anywhere though. Presumably it runs as a positioning move for the morning as much as anything?

 

[Bevan Price]

What is this substantial demand for passengers travelling from St Helens to Scotland and in particular Scotland to St Helens? Do Scots have a particular fascination with glass production? I accept through services are preferable to many people but I really don't believe there are throngs of Glaswegians desperate to sample the delights of St Helens.

I was thinking more about potential for travellers living in / near St. Helens, rather than expecting hordes of Glaswegians wanting to visit our much-diminished glass industry. St. Helens has a population of over 100,000. If a decent service was provided, a demand for through services to/from Scotland (and the Lake District) would be expected to develop - but after years of neglect, it would take several years to build up passenger numbers.

 

[The Bear]

Seems odd ommitting all the intermediate stations north of Preston if cost is a factor surely it will cost TPE to pay Virgin for the Carlisle stop?

Carlisle is open for the sleeper which leaves at 0144.
Seems daft to run the train if you don't want to stop it anywhere though. Presumably it runs as a positioning move for the morning as much as anything?

The late MIA-CAR service forms the early morning CAR-LIV. I don't think it's a case of not wanting to stop these late trains everywhere but there's two main things to remember;
1; Preston & Carlisle are manned 24hrs and always have been, the intermediate stations in between are not and require extra staff.
2; TPE are brassic

If a decent service was provided, a demand for through services to/from Scotland (and the Lake District) would be expected to develop - but after years of neglect, it would take several years to build up passenger numbers.

For the lakes it might help if some of the planned three LIV-GLC services stopped at Oxenholme rather than Penrith……

 

[Clansman]

If St Helens was a calling point then it'd just become another Bolton and Chorley - local commuters cramming up IC services. What is the demand from St Helens to Scotland? No chance this outweighs the number of commuters that'd rather go from St Helens on to Liverpoo, Preston or Wigan without having to contend with an all stopping journey - which is primarily what a call at St Helens would end up being used for.

If I had to guess, it's one of those questions which derives mainly from the idea of a more IC style of journey if anything - ie higher quality of rolling stock, first class offerings, and quicker journeys. To be fair, it's not something St Helens is blessed with. But TPE Scotland services are definitley not the answer to this.

 

[AM9]

If St Helens was a calling point then it'd just become another Bolton and Chorley - local commuters cramming up IC services. What is the demand from St Helens to Scotland? No chance this outweighs the number of commuters that'd rather go from St Helens on to Liverpoo, Preston or Wigan without having to contend with an all stopping journey - which is primarily what a call at St Helens would end up being used for.

If I had to guess, it's one of those questions which derives mainly from the idea of a more IC style of journey if anything - ie higher quality of rolling stock, first class offerings, and quicker journeys. To be fair, it's not something St Helens is blessed with. But TPE Scotland services are definitley not the answer to this.

That's what it looks like, - yet another attempt at justifying a service from anywhere to anywhere. Much as everybody (around St Helens) might like it, there's no more a case for express services to be interrupted by random stops there than there is for instance for MML trains to stop at St Albans, (where entries and exists are nearly four times as great as St Helens). I'm sure that commuters and shoppers would find the IC style trains attractive, but the service intended for long-distance passengers shouldn't be compromised just because the passengers on local journeys prefer them to commuter EMUs.
St Helens is just 11 miles from Lime St., and 8 miles from Wigan North Western where both TPE and VT services provide regular connections for Glasgow. Just because a train can now use the electrified route from Huyton to Wigan, it doesn't mean that long distance services should be degraded by creating a new 'Reading problem' when there isn't any real need to stop there anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I simply can't see that happening. This 3 trains per day Liverpool - Glasgow is mainly show - look, we're improving services in the north and running new ones. I don't think it is a serious attempt to lay the foundations of a useful hourly service. There simply isn't demand north of Preston for 4 tph for a start.

Yes, a bit of a rhetorical question really. There’s only slightly more trains than the 350/4 fleet, so logically only slightly more services.

 

[edwin_m]

Which at Oxenholme has the potential to cause chaos.
Having run north in the 10min gap between 9S97 and 1S88, 1C81 is booked to terminate in platform3 (the Windermere branch platform) 10mins after a Northern Windermere service has departed therefore blocking that Northern unit in on the branch.
The unit off 1C81 then sits in plat3 until 4M11 & 4M48 have passed on the UP and is booked to depart ECS to Preston 10mins before the Northern unit is due back into Oxenholme for its 5min connection with last south-bound mainline service that stops (1M95).

There are loops in each direction - the Down one links directly to the branch platform - so one hopes they can park it in one of these if it would otherwise get in the way.

I would expect the demand type from St Helens would be similar in nature to demand in Runcorn for travel to London. In this case, people traveling from St Helens and east Liverpool environs not needing to go miles in the wrong direction to get a train to Scotland from Lime Street.

Assuming these are people arriving by car, they would drive to Wigan where there is a far better service to Glasgow.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Everyone wants a direct service to everywhere.

I'm in Barnehurst and really want direct trains to Margate, Faversham and Canterbury for the one or two journeys I make a year. Do I shout and jump up and down about it? No. I get on with it.

Comments already made re: St Helens to Wigan and changing there (or even going to Preston on the Blackpool North service) are quite right. Just get on with it.

 

[Clip]

If St Helens was a calling point then it'd just become another Bolton and Chorley

What IC services call at Chorley?

 

[Bevan Price]

There are loops in each direction - the Down one links directly to the branch platform - so one hopes they can park it in one of these if it would otherwise get in the way.


Assuming these are people arriving by car, they would drive to Wigan where there is a far better service to Glasgow.

Not many would drive to Wigan when they realised how much Virgin charged them to park there - probably just a few on expense accounts.....

 

[Ianno87]

Not many would drive to Wigan when they realised how much Virgin charged them to park there - probably just a few on expense accounts.....

Almost certainly more than "a few". Lots of people travelling for work can claim parking expenses, not just the "high fliers". Though the daily demand between St Helens and Scotland is only a few anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

Everyone wants a direct service to everywhere.

I'm in Barnehurst and really want direct trains to Margate, Faversham and Canterbury for the one or two journeys I make a year. Do I shout and jump up and down about it? No. I get on with it.

Comments already made re: St Helens to Wigan and changing there (or even going to Preston on the Blackpool North service) are quite right. Just get on with it.

Yes - but my of my post was "why have just a single train, in one direction, that calls at St. Helens ?". If you are going to pretend to have a service, at least make it useful. And why let early publicity suggest that St. Helens would be regaining through services to Scotland ?

 

[geoffk]

What is this substantial demand for passengers travelling from St Helens to Scotland and in particular Scotland to St Helens? Do Scots have a particular fascination with glass production? I accept through services are preferable to many people but I really don't believe there are throngs of Glaswegians desperate to sample the delights of St Helens.

We could use the same argument for Bolton to Glasgow/Edinburgh. Why stop TPE at Bolton, just get a train to Preston and change.

 

[Ianno87]

We could use the same argument for Bolton to Glasgow/Edinburgh. Why stop TPE at Bolton, just get a train to Preston and change.

For starters:

Usage of Bolton 3-3.5 million per year.

Usage of St Helens 1-1.5 million per year

 

[Ianno87]

And why let early publicity suggest that St. Helens would be regaining through services to Scotland ?

It has, hasn't it? Once per day, but it has.

 

[Clansman]

What IC services call at Chorley?

All TPE services from Scotland before 2013