Stadler or lack of

[westcoaster]

I've often wondered about the lack of choice in the UK market place, you have the big few producers Siemens, bombardier,GM etal, but why is there a lack of competition from smaller train makers such as stadler. Is it due down to production time and slots or just no experience in the UK market place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've often wondered about the lack of choice in the UK market place, you have the big few producers Siemens, bombardier,GM etal, but why is there a lack of competition from smaller train makers such as stadler. Is it due down to production time and slots or just no experience in the UK market place.

Because the UK is a bespoke market, not "off the shelf".
The smaller UK loading gauge means most continental designs need scaling down, and smaller manufacturers won't put the investment in for a handful of sales.
There are other technical issues as well, but these are gradually reducing as our systems get more like theirs.

 

[edwin_m]

Stadler specialise in bespoke vehicles for things like Swiss mountain railways, with some designs produced in single figures, so that aspect of the UK market shouldn't scare them. However the UK systems of leasing and safety approval would be new to them and probably act as a discouragement, though in this aspect the UK and the continent are converging too.

Perhaps as Stadler have now sold some trams to Croydon they will be looking at the UK heavy rail market too.

 

[jopsuk]

It would unfortunately be enormously disruptive to convert lines to modern UIC standard loading gauge. Even a tehcnically isolated passenger operation such as the london Tilbury and Southend (LTS, operated by c2c, the DfT call it "Essex Thameside") would be massively difficult.

One way would be to replace platforms with "compliant" ones, then add a temporary structure on top (as was installed on the Statford International international platforms during the Olympics). Do that to the whole route, make sure stuctures are cleared as well.

Meanwhile build, test and fully run in a complete new fleet. Send drivers to test track for training. have them delivered to a depot connected to the line.

One weekend, shut the entire operation. Remove every temporary platform top. Remove the old stock. Introduce new stock. Reopen. hope nothing breaks down.

Now, that could maybe be done with the LTS. No other passenger trains operate onto it. Freight will be able merrily pass through the reopened line.

Any other line, it gets more difficult. Take say the Greater Anglia West Anglia Main Line and Lee valley lines.

Fine, you could probably repeat the trick somewhat. You could even designate specific platforms at Liverpool Street- the new stock would be banned from any other, and GE trains would not be able to safely use the new platforms in passenger service.

Even at Stansted, it wouldn't be so bad, XC use a different platform to Stansted Express. They'd have to stop stopping at Audley End though.

Cambridge though? A potential nightmare. plenty of space to build the complex station you'd need. You'd almost certainly have to end through-running to Ely and Kings Lynn, with all WA services terminating in their own platforms that GA rurals, FCC and XC would be unable to use. The WA trains would not be able to use other platforms, just their own. They could not even tun ECS through other platforms.

At the London end, the WA trians would be unable to access Illfrod until the GE was imilarly upgraded.

And that's a simple example.

 

[HSTEd]

Much easier to just build an increasingly larger network of "high speed" lines.

Really think Crossrail 2 tunnels should be sized for UIC at least though, even if the platform tops were still removable jobs.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Much easier to just build an increasingly larger network of "high speed" lines.

Really think Crossrail 2 tunnels should be sized for UIC at least though, even if the platform tops were still removable jobs.

DfT FOI request

That said, the Department has evaluated the opportunities for passing double deck trains through the Crossrail tunnel as designed and has concluded that the continental “GB” gauge trains could physically fit through the tunnels as designed, albeit with the need for alterations to the overhead power supply and platforms. The areas around the tunnel wall that could affect the introduction of double deck train would also need to be kept clear of significant cables and signals so as to facilitate future conversion. This “GB” gauge is similar to the profile of the double deck trains used on the RER in Paris. The platforms and overhead power supplies will need to be designed for the normal main line trainsinitially and then if capacity becomes an issue in the future, there would need to be a project for remaining conversion works to accept higher capacity trains. Accordingly youcan see that we have taken a pragmatic approach to ensuring that the tunnel is future proofed for the potential introduction of double deck trains without unduly adding cost or complication at this stage.

 

[talltim]

I'm confused, what has converting lines to European loading gauge got to do with buying from Stadtler?

 

[edwin_m]

Me too. I was trying to point out that Stadler is very flexible in what they can produce so meeting the British loading gauge is unlikely to be an issue for them.

 

[HSTEd]

Me too. I was trying to point out that Stadler is very flexible in what they can produce so meeting the British loading gauge is unlikely to be an issue for them.

Whilst alot of there equipment is bespoke, it tends to be built off a similar set of components to a similar loading gauge.

The parts they use won't fit in our loading gauge, our high level platforms are a particular problem.

 

[bronzeonion]

Rather than scaling down in my opinion crap continental designs wouldn't it be great if a UK manufacturer did it's own designing and made a train from specifications that have come from the TOC or ROSCO? The situation now where manufacturers offer a 'product' then the TOC having a choice of trim and a few other bits is ridiculous, meaning the Railway and the passengers can't get exactly what they want.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and what exactly do they want? You ask a hundred people and your get a hundred answers

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rather than scaling down in my opinion crap continental designs wouldn't it be great if a UK manufacturer did it's own designing and made a train from specifications that have come from the TOC or ROSCO? The situation now where manufacturers offer a 'product' then the TOC having a choice of trim and a few other bits is ridiculous, meaning the Railway and the passengers can't get exactly what they want.

The UK market is not big enough, especially when you have already bought the IEP, Thameslink and Crossrail fleets.
You can have what you want, but at an exorbitant price, because you have to fund the unique design/development over a small production quantity.
And you end up with multiple small non-standard fleets, like class 180, which is then a nightmare to maintain.

 

[starrymarkb]

If they sense future orders Stadler will happily set up a local assembly plant, they already have done in a couple of countries. They also seem to move into plants that Bombardier have purchased and then closed down (ie SLM, Berlin etc)

Stader also make a lot of metre gauge stock, the loading gauge isn't far off UK size

 

[asylumxl]

If they sense future orders Stadler will happily set up a local assembly plant, they already have done in a couple of countries. They also seem to move into plants that Bombardier have purchased and then closed down (ie SLM, Berlin etc)

Stader also make a lot of metre gauge stock, the loading gauge isn't far off UK size

I think the main issue really is that most manufactures see the UK as a closed market for rolling stock. Lets face it, the UK market is dominated by Sombardier, Siemens and more recently somewhat by Hitachi. This strongly discourages other companies bidding in my opinion.

If they knew they were going to be given a fair chance I think they'd be far more inclined to try.

 

[Drsatan]

I believe the other issue influencing the decision of any rolling stock manufacturer to open an assembly line in the UK would be that any plant opened in the UK would probably only produce trains for use in the UK. It would be difficult to transport UIC size rolling stock to ports by rail for export due to loading gauge restrictions, and the cost of road transport would make the export of trains expensive.

 

[starrymarkb]

Again Stadler seem to have been OK with shipping a largish batch of Broad Gauge FLIRTs to Finland by Road from Switzerland but yes, when they have continental plants why build in the UK for the UK only

 

[Loki]

I believe the other issue influencing the decision of any rolling stock manufacturer to open an assembly line in the UK would be that any plant opened in the UK would probably only produce trains for use in the UK. It would be difficult to transport UIC size rolling stock to ports by rail for export due to loading gauge restrictions, and the cost of road transport would make the export of trains expensive.

What about a factory near HS1?

 

[Drsatan]

What about a factory near HS1?

I can't imagine pathing freight trains traveling at 75mph transporting new trains for commissioning would be easy given that HS2 services will operate at 200mph +

Running such services at night might be possible depending on engineering works.

 

[asylumxl]

I can't imagine pathing freight trains traveling at 75mph transporting new trains for commissioning would be easy given that HS2 services will operate at 200mph +

Running such services at night might be possible depending on engineering works.

There is the night though .

 

[D365]

Freight loops (build nearer to the Tunnel?) and night; anyway CTRL isn't built for much more than 200mph. Eurostar 373 is 186mph, can't recall top speeds in metric though :P

 

[hacman]

To be honest, I think part of the reason will also be that thus far there hasn't really been any orders that would justify the fairly large adaptations to their existing products required to make the sale.

I'd say the first real openings for them would be when we start looking for large scale pacer replacements, as well as replacement of the Tyne and Wear Metro stock (a high floor version of the FLIRT3 or GTW would be ideal, seeing as they can be built as bi-mode and then have the diesel engines removed when no longer needed).

Jon

 

[D365]

Wouldn't it be more prudent for T&W to receive a DV 1500v DC / 25kV AC (potential) design in case the mainline stretch into Sunderland is converted. Another niche type requiring replacement soon might be the Glasgow Subway cars, and debatably, the 507/508 and 313 PEPs.

Pacer replacement sounds more like that CSRE Then again, numerous builders have been keen to break into the UK locomotive market recently, it seems.

 

[hacman]

Wouldn't it be more prudent for T&W to receive a DV 1500v DC / 25kV AC (potential) design in case the mainline stretch into Sunderland is converted. Another niche type requiring replacement soon might be the Glasgow Subway cars, and debatably, the 507/508 and 313 PEPs.

Pacer replacement sounds more like that CSRE Then again, numerous builders have been keen to break into the UK locomotive market recently, it seems.

Yes! Will be interesting to see what new stock ends up on the Subway up there, as that certainly will be a bespoke order!

I have a feeling (well, more than a feeling but can't say too much) that the 507 and 508 stock with Merseyrail will likely be replaced with a custom/semi-custom design from Siemens or Bombardier.

As for TW, Stadler would likely be able to do that too with the FLIRT3 / GTW hybrid models - after all, with those each different form of power is just another "snap-in" engine / power car!

Jon

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the main issue really is that most manufactures see the UK as a closed market for rolling stock. Lets face it, the UK market is dominated by Sombardier, Siemens and more recently somewhat by Hitachi. This strongly discourages other companies bidding in my opinion.

If they knew they were going to be given a fair chance I think they'd be far more inclined to try.

Vossloh are building the Sheffield tram-trains.
They seem to be a smaller manufacturer prepared to build for the UK (also the class 68/88 builds).

 

[D365]

Maybe their supply of new traction for the 455s (potentially 456s) and 321s (and 322s, but they're the same thing!) is a way of working up the 'supply chain'.

 

[route:oxford]

It's good to know that there is a manufacturer capable of building small batches of bespoke DMUs, EMUs, Locos & rolling stock.

Scotland would be a good place to focus. The 156s aren't going to last forever and it would be good to have bespoke "tourist friendly" units on the WHL, Far North Line and the Kyle route.

 

[starrymarkb]

It's good to know that there is a manufacturer capable of building small batches of bespoke DMUs, EMUs, Locos & rolling stock.

Scotland would be a good place to focus. The 156s aren't going to last forever and it would be good to have bespoke "tourist friendly" units on the WHL, Far North Line and the Kyle route.

Something like the SPATZ (but maybe with the panoramic windows throughout)

http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/references/zentralbahn-ag-stansstad/

Or maybe something like the FOUR New ADLER units for the Zentralbahn - http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/references/zentralbahn-7-cars-adler/ which operate similar routes with a mix of parorama cars and a restaurant car

 

[bronzeonion]

Make the front ends less tram like and raise the floor, and I might consider it :P

 

[33056]

Taking my "crank" hat off, I do have to say that Stadler produce some very nice units. Have been on quite a few of THESE in the last few days and would be more than happy to commute on them every day though the 350/1s that we already have round here are pretty good too. The 350/2s are too cramped in my opinion, I usually prefer to stand up on one of those if the train is very busy.

 

[455driver]

wouldn't it be great if a UK manufacturer did it's own designing and made a train from specifications that have come from the TOC or ROSCO?

They used to do that but with the modern 1000 coach order (which must all be delivered in 12 months) then nothing for 4 years then another 1000 coach order (which must also be delivered in 12 months) there is no chance of keeping the workforce in work continuously.
If it was a steady drip feed of smaller orders where the workforce could be kept busy all the time then okay but the governments dont work like that so no we cannot have a British manufacturer of trains again.

I dont count a Canadian company who just happens to keep a small works going in Derby for political reasons a British company either.