Staff Brief on Strike Day Ticket Arrangments

[Hadders]

I've come across a staff brief from RDG on the ticketing arrangements for strike days, and customer rights to a refund where disruption occurs. There are a number of concerns:

• I'm surprised to see refund fees mentioned, which given the general advice for next week is 'do not travel', should mean refunds for any passenger choosing not to travel should be fee-free
• There's a suggestion that an admin fee could apply to Advance ticket changes made after 6pm the night before (when again teh general advice is 'do not travel', and almost all trains are likely to be cancelled or retimed
• Details on ticket acceptance are vague. There should unambiguously be ticket acceptance across all TOCs across all reasonable routes. With such a limited service operating the focus should be on getting people to their destination
• It's bizarre that if a train isn't running a customer may rely on their rights to a free refund by their method of payment as set out in the NRCoT and Advance ticket T&C. This right is in general accepted without much fuss, so why is it implied that this isn't the case on strike days? It would be on any day, for disruption arising from any cause

I suppose we should be grateful there is some recourse but it seems like the industry is trying to get away with murder.

 

[janb]

There is an updated version of that brief that corrects the message over fee free refunds.

 

[Watershed]

There is an updated version of that brief that corrects the message over fee free refunds.

But still no clarity over ticket acceptance, and the inaccurate suggestion that admin fees can be charged for changes to Advance tickets (that don't fall within the 'book with confidence' scheme).

Also nothing explicitly acknowledging season ticket holders' rights to a partial refund where they cannot travel.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I notice from EMR's site that you can use a ticket dated on a strike day on days either side but any Maltese Cross element won't be valid. OK, so they would need to reissue a Maltese Cross ticket to get the magstripe coding there but have things got that desperate that LUL's arrangements are totally separate?!! I see the same thought in the RDG brief as well...

Are change fees for ADV fares changed after 1800 'inaccurate', it seems pretty clear that's what the RDG brief says ie. no easements are going to be created...

 

[Starmill]

Are change fees for ADV fares changed after 1800 'inaccurate', it seems pretty clear that's what the RDG brief says ie. no easements are going to be created...

It's inaccurate from the point of view that the customer can still have a refund without fees for 28 days after their date of travel, and that right doesn't expire at 1800 the day before.

 

[AlterEgo]

Explicit instructions that season ticket holders must claim compensation through Delay Repay following the "Do Not Travel" message raise an eyebrow.

 

[Watershed]

I notice from EMR's site that you can use a ticket dated on a strike day on days either side but any Maltese Cross element won't be valid. OK, so they would need to reissue a Maltese Cross ticket to get the magstripe coding there but have things got that desperate that LUL's arrangements are totally separate?!! I see the same thought in the RDG brief as well...

It's probably that LU have balked at the idea of allowing lots of ticket holders through barriers manually, when they will already be seeing increased numbers due to people railheading to avoid the National Rail strikes.

Not that that excuses a blatant breach of Article 16(c) of the PRO, mind.

Are change fees for ADV fares changed after 1800 'inaccurate', it seems pretty clear that's what the RDG brief says ie. no easements are going to be created...

Yes, that's what the RDG brief says. But again, it's a breach of Article 16(b) of the PRO to charge such fees. In fact, not even an increased fare should be charged.

I would have hoped that the industry doesn't have a policy of advertising it's in flagrante delicto...

 

[gingerheid]

Is someone really stupid, or has someone decided that the disruption isn't bad enough and that it's necessary to also actively chase customers away from rail?

 

[Watershed]

Is someone really stupid, or has someone decided that the disruption isn't bad enough and that it's necessary to also actively chase customers away from rail?

I think it's just that the RDG feels this is enough to fob off most people. The notion that ticket holders might be entitled to ticket acceptance, let alone such luxuries as alternative transport/accommodation or delay compensation based on pre-strike timetables, seems utterly foreign to them.

There is a long way to go in getting the industry to treat customers right during disruption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a long way to go in getting the industry to treat customers right during disruption.

Fixed that for you. Institutionally* the railway is one of the most customer-unfriendly organisations I know. The NHS is at a similar level, hovering around Ryanair. All three of those are organisations that don't understand that they exist because of their users/customers, and thus that treating them properly should be of the highest priority.

* as distinct from individual staff attitudes

 

[northwichcat]

"Customers with Anytime, Off-Peak or Advance tickets dated for official strike days (see page 2) are permitted to travel the day before and up to two days after the date on their ticket."

So a ticket issued for Thursday is valid on Wed, Thurs, Fri and Sat. Yet in the case of Northern they are advising against travel on all those days and most pre-9am services have been removed from the timetable on the non-strike days. So if the intention is a day trip to London for work meetings, starting at a local station with no Intercity trains, that acceptance is useless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Customers with Anytime, Off-Peak or Advance tickets dated for official strike days (see page 2) are permitted to travel the day before and up to two days after the date on their ticket."

So a ticket issued for Thursday is valid on Wed, Thurs, Fri and Sat. Yet in the case of Northern they are advising against travel on all those days and most pre-9am services have been removed from the timetable on the non-strike days. So if the intention is a day trip to London for work meetings, starting at a local station with no Intercity trains, that acceptance is useless.

The thing I find unacceptable is that the £10 admin fee is to be charged for refunds on walk-up tickets. It should not be charged when there is this level of disruption. Though to be fair anyone holding one can just claim they intended on using a pre-0900 or post-1800 train and thus "my train was cancelled, give me a refund" with no way to prove otherwise. Having to do this, though, is a disgrace.

I've said before I don't think the admin fee is justified for e-ticket refunds at all, because they basically don't cost anything. However, even so, a refund without admin fee on a walk-up ticket really does need to be allowed in this case without the need for fibbing about the intended train. Then you don't need acceptance, just refund and rebook as it suits.

 

[Haywain]

So if the intention is a day trip to London for work meetings, starting at a local station with no Intercity trains, that acceptance is useless.

Unfortunately, if you want a day trip to London for work meetings, you would be best trying not to do it next week.

 

[Watershed]

"Customers with Anytime, Off-Peak or Advance tickets dated for official strike days (see page 2) are permitted to travel the day before and up to two days after the date on their ticket."

So a ticket issued for Thursday is valid on Wed, Thurs, Fri and Sat. Yet in the case of Northern they are advising against travel on all those days and most pre-9am services have been removed from the timetable on the non-strike days. So if the intention is a day trip to London for work meetings, starting at a local station with no Intercity trains, that acceptance is useless.

You would also have the right to have it validated for a wider range of alternative days, under Article 16(c) of the PRO. And although I imagine most people will either want to get a refund, or travel within that window, the industry shouldn't be implying that that remedy is exclusive.

Fixed that for you. Institutionally* the railway is one of the most customer-unfriendly organisations I know. The NHS is at a similar level, hovering around Ryanair. All three of those are organisations that don't understand that they exist because of their users/customers, and thus that treating them properly should be of the highest priority.

* as distinct from individual staff attitudes

Well, I agree there, but baby steps...!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately, if you want a day trip to London for work meetings, you would be best trying not to do it next week.

I agree. Hence why people should be able to refund tickets (of whatever type) and rebook for a suitable time in the future when this is all over. (I wouldn't plan one other than at short notice until after summer if Teams can be used instead; this is clearly going to go on a while).

As mentioned anyone can, in practice, refund a walk-up without admin fee by looking at Realtime Trains to find a cancelled train and claim this was the intended one. There is no way to prove otherwise, regardless of what the itinerary says, because the intended train cannot exist anywhere other than in the person's head (the existence of an itinerary does not prove that a passenger didn't change their intentions just after the purchase). However, people should not have to tell lies like this to be treated reasonably.

 

[Haywain]

I wouldn't plan one other than at short notice until after summer if Teams can be used instead; this is clearly going to go on a while

I agree that it's likely to go on for a while but it is still possible to plan, as the unions have to give 14 days notice of strike action so we already know the week after next is clear of strikes.

 

[northwichcat]

Unfortunately, if you want a day trip to London for work meetings, you would be best trying not to do it next week.

Work meetings can't always be delayed or brought forward by a week. Projects have deadlines and they can't always be moved due to external factors out of a business's control e.g. the start date of school holidays is fixed.

 

[Haywain]

Work meetings can't always be delayed or brought forward by a week. Projects have deadlines and they can't always be moved due to external factors out of a business's control e.g. the start date of school holidays is fixed.

I'm aware that replanning isn't easy, but next week is not a week to be relying on rail travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Work meetings can't always be delayed or brought forward by a week. Projects have deadlines and they can't always be moved due to external factors out of a business's control e.g. the start date of school holidays is fixed.

There aren't many work meetings in the kind of work we are talking about that can't be conducted via Zoom or Teams. For two years, they all were. Yes, it's not as nice as a jolly, but it's better than the train service on offer, unless everyone drives in which case changing the venue from central London to an out of town hotel or similar may be a viable workaround. And in that case, a full refund should be available, but isn't.

 

[Haywain]

And in that case, a full refund should be available, but isn't.

Check with the retailer. Our internal briefs are very clear that we are making full refunds available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Check with the retailer. Our internal briefs are very clear that we are making full refunds available.

Good for you, that is definitely the right way to go.

 

[westv]

As regards tickets, I've an AP ticket for the 21st for a Hull Trains service bought via the LNER website.
Do I wait until after the 21st to claim back a refund for the cancellation (it is now scheduled to start from Doncaster)?
I just tried to claim now but it wants a date of travel and it won't let me put in 21st.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As regards tickets, I've an AP ticket for the 21st for a Hull Trains service bought via the LNER website.
Do I wait until after the 21st to claim back a refund for the cancellation (it is now scheduled to start from Doncaster)?
I just tried to claim now but it wants a date of travel and it won't let me put in 21st.

You need to claim from LNER as a retailer refund, not Delay Repay.

 

[westv]

You need to claim from LNER as a retailer refund, not Delay Repay.

So not as a cancelled service then. How do I do that?

 

[Snow1964]

As regards tickets, I've an AP ticket for the 21st for a Hull Trains service bought via the LNER website.
Do I wait until after the 21st to claim back a refund for the cancellation (it is now scheduled to start from Doncaster)?
I just tried to claim now but it wants a date of travel and it won't let me put in 21st.

This is part of a general problem with website sales, they are restricted to the logic of how they are programmed, regardless of common sense

If you bought something physically that is subsequently not available then easy to go back to retailer and get a refund. But very difficult when done electronically.

In theory LNER (the website you bought from), can check the goods/service availability and advise you, offering a refund or rebook. But they can’t be bothered. It will be even more customer unfriendly and insulting if they send you a reminder the day before knowing your train isn’t running. Really they ought to do a scan each night of what advances they have sold vs known cancellations.

However in meantime sounds like they are not accepting forward dates even when train is cancelled in advance, why you can’t do this and trigger a check for cancellation is not something I understand

 

[Bletchleyite]

So not as a cancelled service then. How do I do that?

If you are not travelling because of a cancellation, you claim a full refund from your retailer, which is LNER. I don't know how they do it, it varies by retailer - with Trainline for instance you have to go via customer services because just pressing the refund button will cost you an admin fee.

If you do travel and a train in the strike timetable is cancelled on the day so you arrive late, then you claim Delay Repay.

 

[westv]

All sorted. I asked them via Twitter. All very smooth and speedy. Excellent service.

 

[northwichcat]

There aren't many work meetings in the kind of work we are talking about that can't be conducted via Zoom or Teams.

Some are best done by Teams/Zoom, some are best done in person, others it's debatable. Regardless of the best approach changing to online or another day in the same week at short notice might not be workable, especially if you intend to meet different external people in different meetings.

For two years, they all were.

I don't think 'all' is correct. Do you remember the story about a full scheduled flight operating during the first lockdown between Belfast and London even though only essential travel was permitted?

 

[Haywain]

If you are not travelling because of a cancellation, you claim a full refund from your retailer, which is LNER. I don't know how they do it, it varies by retailer - with Trainline for instance you have to go via customer services because just pressing the refund button will cost you an admin fee.

The LNER website is set up to take account of Book with Confidence for refund requests. And I believe the process for requesting a refund is fairly straightforward.

 

[OscarH]

The LNER website is set up to take account of Book with Confidence for refund requests. And I believe the process for requesting a refund is fairly straightforward.

I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what does Book with Confidence have to do with a disruption refund?