Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancashire

[mb88]

Hi folks. Hoping someone on here can help. Going to be spending a week in the lakes and plan on using buses to get around as much as possible. We will be based in Braithwaite. Can anyone advise if the Central Lakes Dayrider is valid on the service 78 to Seatoller? It is the only one that doesn’t seem to be specifically mentioned in the T&Cs. And also can it be used on the X5 between Keswick and Braithwaite? It’s quite unclear what the boundaries of the zones are.

 

[EnviroExplorer]

Hi folks. Hoping someone on here can help. Going to be spending a week in the lakes and plan on using buses to get around as much as possible. We will be based in Braithwaite. Can anyone advise if the Central Lakes Dayrider is valid on the service 78 to Seatoller? It is the only one that doesn’t seem to be specifically mentioned in the T&Cs. And also can it be used on the X5 between Keswick and Braithwaite? It’s quite unclear what the boundaries of the zones are.

Hi there, just had a quick check on the website to confirm my recollections.
The Central Lakes dayrider, shown by the blue bordered area in the map linked below is just for around Windermere and Grasmere, so being based in Braithwaite you would need to buy a North West Explorer instead.

This part of the world is one of many where you can buy a ticket for a small area, or a huge area. The Explorer will cover you across the entirely of Stagecoach’s operations to the likes of Carlisle, Newcastle, Lancaster, Blackpool and Liverpool (I expect this is well beyond your expected use but just to clarify). If staying a week you would be best to purchase a 3-day Explorer for £26, with 1 day being £12.

Stagecoach Cumbria network and ticket zonal map:

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/ZoneMaps/Cumbria/Winter%202024%20Lakes%20by%20Bus%20Map.pdf

 

[mangad]

They used to have a separate Dayrider for the Keswick area. Disappeared when the £2 cap came in as I recall.

 

[mb88]

Hi there, just had a quick check on the website to confirm my recollections.
The Central Lakes dayrider, shown by the blue bordered area in the map linked below is just for around Windermere and Grasmere, so being based in Braithwaite you would need to buy a North West Explorer instead.

This part of the world is one of many where you can buy a ticket for a small area, or a huge area. The Explorer will cover you across the entirely of Stagecoach’s operations to the likes of Carlisle, Newcastle, Lancaster, Blackpool and Liverpool (I expect this is well beyond your expected use but just to clarify). If staying a week you would be best to purchase a 3-day Explorer for £26, with 1 day being £12.

Stagecoach Cumbria network and ticket zonal map:

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/ZoneMaps/Cumbria/Winter%202024%20Lakes%20by%20Bus%20Map.pdf

Perfect thanks for your help. Odd that the app brings up the Central Lakes Dayrider as an option when you set ‘Keswick’ as your location.

 

[tram21]

I notice the usual open-top President usually on the 508 hasn't run in quite a long while, with the 'open-top' runs substituted for an E200 usually.

I'm planning a trip up to the Lakes for late-June, and will change '508s' in Patterdale if it'll be an open top. Is it expected that the President will return onto the 508, or that another open top will replace it before June?

 

[dsjs1990]

I notice the usual open-top President usually on the 508 hasn't run in quite a long while, with the 'open-top' runs substituted for an E200 usually.

I'm planning a trip up to the Lakes for late-June, and will change '508s' in Patterdale if it'll be an open top. Is it expected that the President will return onto the 508, or that another open top will replace it before June?

The provision of open tops on the 78/508 has been rather hit and miss this year.

I used the 78 on Monday and it was 2 closed top buses (one of which wasn't tracking so it only looked like half a service was running and nearly made me completely change my plans)

It looks like there are plans to improve this. A spare open top from the Peak Sightseer (16943) has transfered for the 78 but it appears as unreliable as the other open tops. I think it's first day out was Sunday and I saw it broken down in Keswick for most of the day.

19046, an Enviro 400 open top from Scotland has also transfered and appear to be for a trial on the 508. I'm not sure if it will be successful as it is completely open top and there is a lot of trees very close to the road in the Lakes!

So, in short, it's anyone guess what will be running!

 

[tram21]

The provision of open tops on the 78/508 has been rather hit and miss this year.

I used the 78 on Monday and it was 2 closed top buses (one of which wasn't tracking so it only looked like half a service was running and nearly made me completely change my plans)

It looks like there are plans to improve this. A spare open top from the Peak Sightseer (16943) has transfered for the 78 but it appears as unreliable as the other open tops. I think it's first day out was Sunday and I saw it broken down in Keswick for most of the day.

19046, an Enviro 400 open top from Scotland has also transfered and appear to be for a trial on the 508. I'm not sure if it will be successful as it is completely open top and there is a lot of trees very close to the road in the Lakes!

So, in short, it's anyone guess what will be running!

At least there are plans at least. I'm from Peak Sightseer land, and know that Gemini well, it's a very lovely bus!!

I'll hope for a nice open top!

 

[mangad]

The provision of open tops on the 78/508 has been rather hit and miss this year.

Far, far, far more miss than hit I'd say, if bustimes is any judge. I'm a regular visitor to the area, and things weren't great in autumn 2023, and were far worse in autumn 2024. Now it seems to be almost non-existent.

I had a look at the vehicles that have been in use in recent years on the 78 and 508.

17490 (Denis Trident, registered in October 2001 so 24 years old this year) was regularly on the 78 but it's MOT expired 21 March.
17692 (Denis Trident, registered in December 2000 so already 24 years old) was regularly on the 508, but has no MOT either as that expired 19 April.

Well that's two vehicles that can't be used out of the three, which leaves 19161. That's an Enviro4000. Registered in 2007 so positively young and spritely in comparison to the others. Good news! It passed it's MOT this March! But it's not been on the road since 16 April.

It looks like there are plans to improve this. A spare open top from the Peak Sightseer (16943) has transfered for the 78 but it appears as unreliable as the other open tops. I think it's first day out was Sunday and I saw it broken down in Keswick for most of the day.

Registered in March 2006 so a mere 19 years old... If bustimes is to be believed, it managed a few journeys on 3 May, and one journey on 5 May.

Perhaps this suggests the problem. Knackered, ancient buses on routes that are hardly easy drives. The 78 runs 8am to 8pm every day. It's a bouncy, windy road with loads of ups and downs. It's a great ride. A fantastic route for an open top service. But the only time you appear to be able to reliably predict an open top will come arrive is during winter when spare 599 vehicles get used.

Strongly suspect the reality is that they need to put a few pounds in and convert a bus that's a little newer. These are supposed to be flagship tourist routes, and they're not even getting buses in the Lakes Connection livery.

So, in short, it's anyone guess what will be running!

One thing I'd assume about what's running. It will have a full roof.

 

[gka472l]

Far, far, far more miss than hit I'd say, if bustimes is any judge. I'm a regular visitor to the area, and things weren't great in autumn 2023, and were far worse in autumn 2024. Now it seems to be almost non-existent.

I had a look at the vehicles that have been in use in recent years on the 78 and 508.

17490 (Denis Trident, registered in October 2001 so 24 years old this year) was regularly on the 78 but it's MOT expired 21 March.
17692 (Denis Trident, registered in December 2000 so already 24 years old) was regularly on the 508, but has no MOT either as that expired 19 April.

Well that's two vehicles that can't be used out of the three, which leaves 19161. That's an Enviro4000. Registered in 2007 so positively young and spritely in comparison to the others. Good news! It passed it's MOT this March! But it's not been on the road since 16 April.



Registered in March 2006 so a mere 19 years old... If bustimes is to be believed, it managed a few journeys on 3 May, and one journey on 5 May.

Perhaps this suggests the problem. Knackered, ancient buses on routes that are hardly easy drives. The 78 runs 8am to 8pm every day. It's a bouncy, windy road with loads of ups and downs. It's a great ride. A fantastic route for an open top service. But the only time you appear to be able to reliably predict an open top will come arrive is during winter when spare 599 vehicles get used.

Strongly suspect the reality is that they need to put a few pounds in and convert a bus that's a little newer. These are supposed to be flagship tourist routes, and they're not even getting buses in the Lakes Connection livery.


One thing I'd assume about what's running. It will have a full roof.

I'm sure former Stagecoach East 19574 was supposed to be for open top conversion for the Lakes???

 

[Blindtraveler]

There must be some 16, 17 or 18 plate early mmc That are perhaps past their prime on an intensive frontline urban service that could be open topped for a number of uses including Cumbria which if done properly could make a lot of money on tourist services and already does even on those that aren't open top, just look at the usage on stuff like the 555

 

[mangad]

I'm sure former Stagecoach East 19574 was supposed to be for open top conversion for the Lakes???

There's a picture of it on flickr as an open top, with "The Borrowdale Bus" branding. Photograph says it was taken in Carlisle in April. But according to the MOT checker, it's MOT expired in February 2023. So guess it's been sat there for a while?

 

[Russel]

At least there are plans at least. I'm from Peak Sightseer land, and know that Gemini well, it's a very lovely bus!!

I'll hope for a nice open top!

It's also very unreliable!

Haven't First cut back there Cornwall open-top services, could Stagecoach make them an offer for any spare buses?

Or even, Stagecoach seem to have pruned back their Torbay Open Top services over the last year or two, has that resulted in any spare buses?

 

[Teapot42]

Are the older open toppers sound enough to be worth of consideration for EV conversion?

 

[Russel]

Are the older open toppers sound enough to be worth of consideration for EV conversion?

Not sure the cost could be justified for buses that are only used half the year.

Nice thought though.

 

[florence]

Not sure the cost could be justified for buses that are only used half the year.

Nice thought though.

The open toppers are run year round on the 599 and now the 78 as Kendal run it in the winter timetables.

 

[Teapot42]

Not sure the cost could be justified for buses that are only used half the year.

Surely it depends on the cost compared to converting another vehicle rather than how often the bus is used?

Very difficult cost comparison though as you need to estimate lifespans for the two options plus savings in servicing and fuel which aren't easy to do.

I've often wondered how much something like a Zeebus conversion would cost - they normally seem to suggest it works out for mid-life vehicles, but open toppers can be a special case.

 

[Russel]

The open toppers are run year round on the 599 and now the 78 as Kendal run it in the winter timetables.

Very much a thinned out timetable though

 

[mangad]

Was very sad to be in Keswick the other day in glorious sunshine and there be no open top buses anywhere to be seen. Can only hope they're scouring the Stagecoach fleet for something they can convert.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There must be stacks of midlife early MMC they could convert and would easily justify replacing with new on the root side originally come from as it's not as if the lake District tourist operations don't make them a mint

 

[Russel]

There must be stacks of midlife early MMC they could convert and would easily justify replacing with new on the root side originally come from as it's not as if the lake District tourist operations don't make them a mint

Does seem strange that they've let things get to this point, given the size of the fleet they have to pick from.

 

[mangad]

Well in big open top news, 16943 (the ex Peak Sightseer bus) is currently tracking on the 78. Appears to be the only bus tracking. Indeed looking through bustimes.org, only one bus has been tracking most days over the last few weeks (Tuesday 13th May had no buses tracking) so whether there's anything else running, who knows.

​

 

[RHC]

During the week starting 12 May, 19161 was in frequent use on the 78, though not tracking. Ticket machine wasn’t available for OAP passes, so that might have been an issue. There is still the mystery of the other Borrowdale Bus - 19574, which seems to have never been used.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There must be stacks of midlife early MMC they could convert and would easily justify replacing with new on the root side originally come from as it's not as if the lake District tourist operations don't make them a mint

Does seem strange that they've let things get to this point, given the size of the fleet they have to pick from.

The Lake District operations may make money but the main money-spinners are the 555 (new vehicles) and 599 (had new fleet a few years back) and the X4/X5 which has is receiving ex Chesterfield e400mmc. The other routes (78 and esp 508) are a lot more seasonal and perhaps not quite the gold mines that people may think they are. That said, they probably need something newer and more reliable.

However, a combination of Covid era caution in new vehicle investment is also allied to a rather successful record in obtaining new work across the group. You see the number of ALX bodied Tridents still going despite the cascades out of Manchester (which themselves weren't the most modern fleet) and then there's new Devon and Cornwall work that's probably another load of decker workings to find vehicles for.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Are those former chesterfield vehicles for the X4 and X5 Scania or adl integral with the Cummins lump? It's certainly interesting that they haven't ordered new for these roots as they have done for the last couple of fleet replacements, but I should imagine the existing deckers are completely worn out

 

[Teapot42]

Are those former chesterfield vehicles for the X4 and X5 Scania or adl integral with the Cummins lump? It's certainly interesting that they haven't ordered new for these roots as they have done for the last couple of fleet replacements, but I should imagine the existing deckers are completely worn out

Pretty sure they are integral. They've not been the most reliable either - at least not compared to the older Scania-based E400s we also have.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Sounds like a recipe for success given that they spend a lot of their time on the a66.

 

[Russel]

The Lake District operations may make money but the main money-spinners are the 555 (new vehicles) and 599 (had new fleet a few years back) and the X4/X5 which has is receiving ex Chesterfield e400mmc. The other routes (78 and esp 508) are a lot more seasonal and perhaps not quite the gold mines that people may think they are. That said, they probably need something newer and more reliable.

The 78/508 may be seasonal, but they are both part of the Lakes package, I'd suggest being open top services, especially the 78, is why a lot of people use it, running it with Solos is one way of killing it off...

Are those former chesterfield vehicles for the X4 and X5 Scania or adl integral with the Cummins lump? It's certainly interesting that they haven't ordered new for these roots as they have done for the last couple of fleet replacements, but I should imagine the existing deckers are completely worn out

Last time I used the existing E400 deckers on the X4/X5, I can't comment on the mechanical side of things, but internally they were worn and dirty, add in the dated gold interior and it wasn't a good look from a passenger experience point of view.

 

[chiltern trev]

Are those former chesterfield vehicles for the X4 and X5 Scania or adl integral with the Cummins lump? It's certainly interesting that they haven't ordered new for these roots as they have done for the last couple of fleet replacements, but I should imagine the existing deckers are completely worn out

It is the integrals that have been transferred.

2 are in daily use in Carlisle - to Newcastle, Dumfries and city services - 11122 and 11123.

It has been said elsewhere these are all destined for the X4/X5. Also suggested they will be repainted into the green Lakes style livery.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Interesting that they're sending deckers to Dumfries

 

[chiltern trev]

Interesting that they're sending deckers to Dumfries

Infrequent. Might have been a on off.

The 685 Newcastle timetable got updated about 1 month ago - minor changes to journey times - so whereas each bus arriving in Carlisle from Newcastle would arrive in time to got back out to Newcastle, extra minutes have been added so the incoming bus is late and a different bus goes out. Hence you see E400MMCs being swapped - but they have to earn their keep - looking at bustimes just now, one of the E400MMCs did a couple of trips on the 104 to Penrith before being assigned to 685 Newcastle.

This timing seems to be the morning round trips (2 consecutive ones) that go into Newcastle around the am peak so I guess the traffic causes it.

0555 dep Carlisle arrives NCL 0832 - then 0840 dep NCL arrives Carlisle 1108 after 11.00 departure from Carlisle to NCL
0655 dep Carlisle arrives NCL 0932 - then 0940 dep NCL arrives Carlisle 1208 after 12.00 departure from Carlisle to NCL

11123, 11155 and 11156 on 685 Newcastles today.

Except 11123 that went out at 0555 managed not to be swapped at around 1100.
And 11155 that went out at 0655 got swapped at around 1200 and went back out at around 1300.
11156 went out at around 1200 having been on 104s all morning.
27142 did a morning roundtrip to Newcastle then went on 62s - got swapped at around 1200 for 11156.