Stagecoach Group (Group-wide matters)

[Surreyman]

There seems to be a programme to re-engine late model MAN 18.240s with new Euro 6 compliant Cummins engines, Newcastle, Hull and West seem to be the companies doing this.
Does anyone know how many are likely to be done?
Stagecoach have clearly made a commercial decision to fund some conversions, as the vehicles were built 2009-2010 (9/10 years old) they must be convinced that the cost of re-engineing is justified.

 

[markydh]

I believe they have received government funding via successful local government grant applications. Certainly in Newcastle in any case.

 

[Robertj21a]

There seems to be a programme to re-engine late model MAN 18.240s with new Euro 6 compliant Cummins engines, Newcastle, Hull and West seem to be the companies doing this.
Does anyone know how many are likely to be done?
Stagecoach have clearly made a commercial decision to fund some conversions, as the vehicles were built 2009-2010 (9/10 years old) they must be convinced that the cost of re-engineing is justified.

It always surprises me to see how unpopular the MANs are in the UK and yet on the European mainland they seem very popular. Stagecoach have never been too happy with their MANs, so a bit strange that they bought quite a lot.

 

[NewcastleOne]

It always surprises me to see how unpopular the MANs are in the UK and yet on the European mainland they seem very popular. Stagecoach have never been too happy with their MANs, so a bit strange that they bought quite a lot.

I don’t know exactly but were they a cheap option?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It always surprises me to see how unpopular the MANs are in the UK and yet on the European mainland they seem very popular. Stagecoach have never been too happy with their MANs, so a bit strange that they bought quite a lot.

They bought on the case of full life costings - there were deals in place not just on purchase price but also warranty terms and parts pricing IIRC. However, they had some problems with the early examples (S reg?). Think those issues tend to colour the view that they had major problems when actually, they got to the root of them quite quickly and bought them for the next 15 years!

 

[Surreyman]

They bought on the case of full life costings - there were deals in place not just on purchase price but also warranty terms and parts pricing IIRC. However, they had some problems with the early examples (S reg?). Think those issues tend to colour the view that they had major problems when actually, they got to the root of them quite quickly and bought them for the next 15 years!

I believed (rightly or wrongly?) that they were happy with the earlier examples (18.20s) and that it was the later model (18.40s) that had problems with overheating?
Stand to be corrected on this ( I have never worked in the bus industry).

 

[Robertj21a]

Other operators have also seemed very keen to get rid of Versas with MAN engines.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believed (rightly or wrongly?) that they were happy with the earlier examples (18.20s) and that it was the later model (18.40s) that had problems with overheating?
Stand to be corrected on this ( I have never worked in the bus industry).

They did have issues with the e300 c2008 issues with overheating - believe it was to do with radiator position, at least in part.

 

[overthewater]

Volvo B9R/Levante at Chesterfield should be moving to East Scotland shortly.

 

[Volvodart]

Not bus related, but may be of interest:-

https://otp.tools.investis.com/clie.../regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=1246762

Department for Transport rail franchising programme

Stagecoach Group plc ("Stagecoach") has been informed by the Department for Transport ("DfT") that it has been disqualified from the current three UK rail franchise competitions.

Stagecoach was shortlisted in the following franchise competitions:

• East Midlands where it was bidding independently

• South Eastern where it was bidding with support from its intended partner Alstom

• West Coast Partnership where it was part of a joint bid with Virgin Group and SNCF



A senior DfT official has verbally informed Stagecoach that it has been excluded from all three competitions for submitting non-compliant bids principally in respect of pensions risk.

Bidders for these franchises were asked to bear full long-term funding risk on relevant sections of the Railways Pension Scheme. This is at a time when The Pensions Regulator is seeking additional funding because of serious doubts over the Government's ongoing support for the industry-wide scheme.

Stagecoach Group Chief Executive Martin Griffiths said: "We are extremely concerned at both the DfT's decision and its timing. The Department has had full knowledge of these bids for a lengthy period and we are seeking an urgent meeting to discuss our significant concerns.

"We have drawn on more than two decades of rail experience and worked in partnership with local stakeholders to develop high quality proposals to improve each of these rail networks.

"We bid consistent with industry guidance issued by the Rail Delivery Group and shared with the DfT. Without ongoing Government support for the long-term funding of railway pensions, The Pensions Regulator has indicated that an additional £5billion to £6billion would be needed to plug the gap in train company pensions.

"In contrast, the rail industry proposed solution would have delivered an additional £500million to £600million into the scheme. This would have provided better stability and security for members and much better value for taxpayers. We are shocked that the Government has rejected this for a higher risk approach. We would urge that a full independent value for money review is undertaken into this issue without delay.

"Along with many other train companies, we believe strongly that the private sector should not be expected to accept material risks it cannot control and manage. In fact, this was a key finding of the Brown review into rail franchising more than six years ago. We are therefore extremely surprised that the Government still expects private operators to take risks they are not best placed to manage, despite the recent difficulties experienced by a number of operators of outsourced public sector contracts.

"Forcing rail companies to take these risks could lead to the failure of more rail franchises and cannot be in the best long-term interests of either customers, employees, taxpayers or the investors the railway needs for it to prosper.

"This is more evidence that the current franchising model is not fit for purpose, a view which has already been expressed by Keith Williams, who is leading the independent review of the rail system.

"It also further damages the already fragile investor confidence in the UK rail market and it undermines the involvement of two of the last British transport groups who are part of running Britain's railway.

"Over more than 20 years, we have delivered industry-leading performance, record passenger growth, excellent industrial relations, and the highest levels of customer satisfaction in the sector. We will continue to focus on delivering high quality services for our customers at our existing rail businesses."

 

[Surreyman]

Not bus related, but may be of interest:-

https://otp.tools.investis.com/clie.../regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=1246762

Very sensible stance taken by Stagecoach in my opinion.
1. Exit East Midland Trains before the 31/12/19 deadline (Which looks impossible to meet).
2. The Pension requirements the Dft seems to be demanding are best avoided by any sane and financially sensible PLC.
3. Current Rail Franchises are probably more trouble than they are worth re Revenue targets, profitability (Note Current not 'Past'), political/PR profile/Image issues. (National Express sensibly exited the market).
I note that a comment has been made that 'Bidders who lose, do not normally criticise Dft as they wish to be considered for the next Franchise', well if you have decided not to bother then having a pop at Grayling and Co becomes a luxury you can afford to indulge.

 

[winston270twm]

Very sensible stance taken by Stagecoach in my opinion.
1. Exit East Midland Trains before the 31/12/19 deadline (Which looks impossible to meet).
2. The Pension requirements the Dft seems to be demanding are best avoided by any sane and financially sensible PLC.
3. Current Rail Franchises are probably more trouble than they are worth re Revenue targets, profitability (Note Current not 'Past'), political/PR profile/Image issues. (National Express sensibly exited the market).
I note that a comment has been made that 'Bidders who lose, do not normally criticise Dft as they wish to be considered for the next Franchise', well if you have decided not to bother then having a pop at Grayling and Co becomes a luxury you can afford to indulge.

My only concern as regards Stagecoach Group, is that 100% of their revenue & profit will come from just the UK. Without UK Rail, I can't really see how Stagecoach are going to grow within UK Bus due to their current market dominance. Additionally, there no longer seems to be any desire to expand outside of the UK market.

Also, how will the Souter's eventually extract value from their SGC holdings ? - I'm assuming the value of their stakes are way down from all time highs of £4 / share.

From this morning - Stagecoach retains a 'Hold' by HSBC - whilst NX Group is the only UK based group with a target price increase along with interesting comments highlighted in blue:

UK bus and rail sector 'running out of steam', says HSBC

Analysts at HSBC took a fresh look at Britain's bus and rail transport businesses on Tuesday, changing their estimates and target prices on several outfits as the sector appeared to be "running out of steam".

The bank said the sector's valuation was "starting to look full" and that if it were to strip cash generation down into rail/non-rail components, share prices look up with events, with all except those of National Express starting to attribute some value to rail.

However, given the volatility in the sector, and the short-dated nature of some remaining rail franchises, HSBC said that might be an issue. Although it did concede that it was arguably a better mover to be growing internationally than to bid for new rail franchises, where it’s still not clear a lot of value can be added.

Looking at bus operators, HSBC said that while UK bus divisions seemed to be over the worst of the downgrades, it didn't expect much in the way of growth either.

In terms of individual operators, HSBC reiterated its 'buy' rating and 475p target price on National Express, which has "the most obvious value" and a current share price that was "more than justified" from its existing business, with additional value also looking set to come in the form of mergers and acquisitions.

On the other side of the coin, HSBC downgraded Go-Ahead to 'hold' from 'buy' despite upping its target price to 2,010p from 1,970p, noting that although the group's shares had performed well, analysts no longer saw a "clear investment case".

HSBC reiterated its 'hold' ratings on Stagecoach and Firstgroup but lowered their target prices to 135p and 80p, respectively.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/brok...-running-out-of-steam-says-hsbc--3832950.html

 

[Robertj21a]

Very sensible stance taken by Stagecoach in my opinion.
1. Exit East Midland Trains before the 31/12/19 deadline (Which looks impossible to meet).
2. The Pension requirements the Dft seems to be demanding are best avoided by any sane and financially sensible PLC.
3. Current Rail Franchises are probably more trouble than they are worth re Revenue targets, profitability (Note Current not 'Past'), political/PR profile/Image issues. (National Express sensibly exited the market).
I note that a comment has been made that 'Bidders who lose, do not normally criticise Dft as they wish to be considered for the next Franchise', well if you have decided not to bother then having a pop at Grayling and Co becomes a luxury you can afford to indulge.

It's uncanny how often it's Stagecoach who come up with the most sensible approach to any problem. Taking on the pensions would be like writing an open cheque. Just a shame that Grayling etc can't see why that is a problem. Perhaps it's better that a foreign operator takes on these sizeable risks !!

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach Group might be looking else where outside the UK to get new projects, heck it never stop Souter doing that, and he sold them off for a nice profit.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a reminder that for discussion around the rail aspects of this we do have a thread here. Please do try and avoid discussing the rail aspects in the Bus & Coaches sub-forum

 

[winston270twm]

Stagecoach Group might be looking else where outside the UK to get new projects, heck it never stop Souter doing that, and he sold them off for a nice profit.

Any new Bus & Coach International ventures in recent years has always been personal investments via 'Souter Investments', whilst all Stagecoach Group International ventures i.e. Megabus Europe & now Coach USA inc Megabus USA have / are all being exited, leaving just the UK for it's business activities.

 

[J-2739]

Is there anything new on any outstanding orders for new vehicles come 2018/19?

 

[goldisgood]

I believe that the 2018/19 order is complete, and I heard from the North East Buses forum that Stockton are due some Enviro 200 MMC for their 36/37/38 services this summer as a part of the 2019/20 order. It's good to see some investment for the north east after a few years with minimal investment - it makes good profit (£10.4m according to the latest accounts) and will hopefully have more investment on top of these buses.

 

[J-2739]

Haha, I meant to put 2019/20...

If so, is there a list?

 

[CharlesR]

Haha, I meant to put 2019/20...

If so, is there a list?

Often comes out this time of the month, last year it was a very late reveal.

 

[Volvodart]

They will likely release the number/value information officially, like last year, with the preliminary results announcement in June and with the specific details being released via various parties shorty after that.

 

[LancasterRed]

Stagecoach CNL confirm the 2 is being changed to the 100 but the 2X remains the same. The 1 will be split into the 1 and 1A, taking different routes between Lancaster and Morecambe. I assume both will use the current 1 branded buses - which have only just come into service!

With the 1A and 100 running at night from the University, I suspect a lot of drunk students will end up on the wrong bus! (this may or may not include me)

 

[goldisgood]

Why cause the confusion of this? It sounds like it will be changed back next year. The 1 and 1A renumbering makes sense to distinguish between the two different routes between Morecambe and Heysham.

 

[LancasterRed]

Why cause the confusion of this? It sounds like it will be changed back next year. The 1 and 1A renumbering makes sense to distinguish between the two different routes between Morecambe and Heysham.

There's no confusion between the 1 and 1A - but the 1A and 100 at night will pose a problem initially. As it stands there's enough confusion with people getting the 2 instead of the 1!

 

[jonesy3001]

It's just the old 2/2A route, the 2A went up heysham rd to the towers from the battery and the 2 went via kingsway to heysham meeting up at the strawberry gardens.

 

[Volvodart]

Stagecoach mulls a takeover of the UK's largest bus operator Arriva after it goes up for sale

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Ks-largest-bus-operator-Arriva-goes-sale.html

Stagecoach mulls a takeover of the UK's largest bus operator Arriva after it goes up for sale
City sources said Stagecoach is interested in buying Arriva's bus business
Arriva has been put up for sale by German Transport giant Deutsche Bahn
It operates more than 5,000 buses in Britain and has divisions across Europe
By BEN HARRINGTON, FINANCIAL MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 21:48, 13 April 2019 | UPDATED: 21:48, 13 April 2019

Stagecoach is considering a bid for some or all of rival Arriva, the UK's largest bus operator.

City sources said the FTSE 250-listed transport giant is particularly interested in buying Arriva's bus business.

London Overground operator Arriva – acquired in 2010 for £1.5 billion – has been put up for sale by German Transport giant Deutsche Bahn.

In the UK, Arriva runs rail franchise Northern, which has been hit by a long-running dispute with the RMT union over the role of guards on trains.

Arriva, which operates more than 5,000 buses in Britain, also has divisions across Europe.

Last year, Arriva, which handles all of Deutsche Bahn's regional transport services outside Germany, generated revenues of €5.44 billion (£4.7 billion).

Deutsche Bahn had looked at selling Arriva in 2016 but delayed the disposal because of the surprise Brexit referendum result.

The German group is looking to offload Arriva to help manage its mounting debts. An investment of €1 billion (£860 million) in new high-speed trains last autumn pushed its debts to €20 billion (£17 billion).

Stagecoach declined to comment.

 

[winston270twm]

Stagecoach mulls a takeover of the UK's largest bus operator Arriva after it goes up for sale

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Ks-largest-bus-operator-Arriva-goes-sale.html

I have thought Stagecoach making an offer for Arriva's European Bus Division would give it a more diversified portfolio, I'd have thought any bid to include Arriva's UK bus business would be a non starter due to it's existing market share.

 

[Observer]

In this week's Bus and Coach Buyer Magazine there are ads from Stagecoach advertising MANs in both E200 and Versa form. A very low price, for obvious reasons.

 

[Jordan Adam]

In this week's Bus and Coach Buyer Magazine there are ads from Stagecoach advertising MANs in both E200 and Versa form. A very low price, for obvious reasons.

No surprise there at all! It seems most of the Stagecoach Man E300s are now being withdrawn and disposed of too. Man engines are just awful when it comes to reliability.

Still perhaps the header on the advert should read "Cheap dodgy MAN engine buses for sale".

 

[goldisgood]

I have thought Stagecoach making an offer for Arriva's European Bus Division would give it a more diversified portfolio, I'd have thought any bid to include Arriva's UK bus business would be a non starter due to it's existing market share.

If they could get as much of it as they can, divesting any areas where there is too much overlap with existing operations, they would dominate the market and could expand into lots of profitable areas.
Most of the operation should be ok on the whole - Southern Counties, North East (I'm thinking Teesside in particular) and North West could cause some competition issues, but even if you rid of these they would have a massively increased operation with more profitable areas such as Yorkshire and Leicester.
I doubt much will come from this, but if it does we could see an interesting few years.