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Stagecoach North Scotland (Bluebird and Highland)

SouthEastBuses

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66 still uses coaches, now with an Elite too! As much as I prefer local routes like the 66 run with low floor single or double decker buses, it would be awesome to see Stagecoach North Scotland buy a Mercedes Benz Tourismo! Tourismos are one of my favourite ever coaches.

Oh and I think Tourismos would be amazing and well suited to the 10, X98 and X99 lol
 
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SouthEastBuses

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I'm assuming the reason why the 66 is coaches only is because it's run by Caithness and they prefer to use low floor buses on short routes like 77, 80 or 82?
 

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Apparently, that's the only reason why they use coaches, due to the fact that unlike in many parts of the UK (including the South East of England, where I am currently living), double deckers can't really be used in North Scotland as high winds are much more frequent there as if it happens pretty much everyday.

I am trying to understand why are double deckers unsuitable in high wind operations?
 

Pat1105

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Apparently, that's the only reason why they use coaches, due to the fact that unlike in many parts of the UK (including the South East of England, where I am currently living), double deckers can't really be used in North Scotland as high winds are much more frequent there as if it happens pretty much everyday.

I am trying to understand why are double deckers unsuitable in high wind operations?
Buchan depots use Elite I coaches on the Aberdeen corridor (60/61/63/67/68). Although they aren’t really double deckers, they are very tall and can easily blow over. There was an example a few weeks ago where 54247 blew over on a 61 service, just outside Newburgh. When the winds are too high, they substitute them for smaller single deck vehicles like E200’s (one of the most unsuitable vehicle types for that corridor and horrible to travel on if you’re going all the way from Peterhead to Aberdeen). The locals go mad when an E200 turns up on stand!
 

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Buchan depots use Elite I coaches on the Aberdeen corridor (60/61/63/67/68). Although they aren’t really double deckers, they are very tall and can easily blow over. There was an example a few weeks ago where 54247 blew over on a 61 service, just outside Newburgh. When the winds are too high, they substitute them for smaller single deck vehicles like E200’s (one of the most unsuitable vehicle types for that corridor and horrible to travel on if you’re going all the way from Peterhead to Aberdeen). The locals go mad when an E200 turns up on stand!

Yeah, E200s. I hate them except for Voith models which I think aren't too bad, and also I don't mind Euro 6 models and MMCs.
No wonder why they're so unsuitable for the Buchan routes.

For the 60/61/63/67/68, I think the Enviro300 would be the most suitable in high wind operations, as I have a feeling that even single decker coaches like Plaxton Panthers have a risk of being blown up.
 

Pat1105

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Yeah, E200s. I hate them except for Voith models which I think aren't too bad, and also I don't mind Euro 6 models and MMCs.
No wonder why they're so unsuitable for the Buchan routes.

For the 60/61/63/67/68, I think the Enviro300 would be the most suitable in high wind operations, as I have a feeling that even single decker coaches like Plaxton Panthers have a risk of being blown up.
Buchan only have 2 or 3 E300’s. There’s one they had that was banned from 747’s as it was too slow. Panthers would be alright as they aren’t at risk of being blown over, especially with a load of passengers.
 

Jordan Adam

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Yeah, E200s. I hate them except for Voith models which I think aren't too bad, and also I don't mind Euro 6 models and MMCs.
No wonder why they're so unsuitable for the Buchan routes.

For the 60/61/63/67/68, I think the Enviro300 would be the most suitable in high wind operations, as I have a feeling that even single decker coaches like Plaxton Panthers have a risk of being blown up.

Actually to be honest i've had 36050 on the 63 before and it wasn't that bad, most of Bluebirds E200s (except the 3 63 plates) are fairly decent, but totally unsuitable for the Buchan Xpress. Allisons ones are better imo. Panthers and Elites are totally fine in high winds, back when they used the SV59 Panthers they never had to take them off the road due to winds. Likewise on the 10 and 35 they've never had to take the coaches off due to winds.

Buchan only have 2 or 3 E300’s. There’s one they had that was banned from 747’s as it was too slow. Panthers would be alright as they aren’t at risk of being blown over, especially with a load of passengers.

Buchan have 5 E300s (, 27602 was the one banned from the 747 for a short period however it's since been fixed and is allowed on again. If anything 27601 is the really slow one just now, apparently it was a slug in it's Elgin days too!

15M Panthers (like what they had before) would be ideal, but the issue is capacity - even right now the peak runs can often be full and i have heard of Interdecks running between Aberdeen and Elgin with standees. I do think for the next batch of new vehicles they should look in to a split fleet again, perhaps 12 15M B11R Panther3s and 8 B11RLE Panoramas. Another issue Buchan currently has is that there's not enough Interdecks, they have 17 of them to cover 19 duties, however as 54242 is long term VOR with accident damage it means they're 3 short.
 

Pat1105

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Actually to be honest i've had 36050 on the 63 before and it wasn't that bad, most of Bluebirds E200s (except the 3 63 plates) are fairly decent, but totally unsuitable for the Buchan Xpress. Allisons ones are better imo. Panthers and Elites are totally fine in high winds, back when they used the SV59 Panthers they never had to take them off the road due to winds. Likewise on the 10 and 35 they've never had to take the coaches off due to winds.



Buchan have 5 E300s (, 27602 was the one banned from the 747 for a short period however it's since been fixed and is allowed on again. If anything 27601 is the really slow one just now, apparently it was a slug in it's Elgin days too!

15M Panthers (like what they had before) would be ideal, but the issue is capacity - even right now the peak runs can often be full and i have heard of Interdecks running between Aberdeen and Elgin with standees. I do think for the next batch of new vehicles they should look in to a split fleet again, perhaps 12 15M B11R Panther3s and 8 B11RLE Panoramas. Another issue Buchan currently has is that there's not enough Interdecks, they have 17 of them to cover 19 duties, however as 54242 is long term VOR with accident damage it means they're 3 short.
Interdecks going to Elgin? Do you mean the elites? Even though it is illegal to carry standees on coaches, I did have it once on a B7R operated 33C. The Interdecks (although can carry large amounts of passengers and are comfortable) are not really suitable for the Buchan corridor. They are designed for long distance, non stop driving and not short-ish stints up to Peterhead and Fraserburgh. This has had an effect on them as it is shortening their lifespan and leading to reliability issues. I think they’d be better off using E400MMC’s (possibly like the B5LH ones that Dundee have) as these can cope with the high capacity.
However, I have to disagree with you on the E200’s. The ones at Elgin (when I still lived there) were in a shocking state. Threadbare seats, rattles (typical for an ADL product I suppose) you name it! I had one once that wouldn’t change into 2nd gear (was swapped for a 35 MMC).
 

SouthEastBuses

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Interdecks going to Elgin? Do you mean the elites? Even though it is illegal to carry standees on coaches, I did have it once on a B7R operated 33C. The Interdecks (although can carry large amounts of passengers and are comfortable) are not really suitable for the Buchan corridor. They are designed for long distance, non stop driving and not short-ish stints up to Peterhead and Fraserburgh. This has had an effect on them as it is shortening their lifespan and leading to reliability issues. I think they’d be better off using E400MMC’s (possibly like the B5LH ones that Dundee have) as these can cope with the high capacity.

E400 MMCs would be awesome for the Buchan Express, only issue is lack of luggace capacity. So tbf, Neoplan Skyliner, Volvo B11RLE Panorama, Setra S431DT or Van Hool Astromega is probably a better choice for the Buchan Express

Also @Jordan Adam what do you think about Mercedes Benz Tourismos? Suitable for the 10, X98/X99 despite Stagecoach not having any?
Tourismos are one of my favourite coaches ever.
 

Pat1105

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E400 MMCs would be awesome for the Buchan Express, only issue is lack of luggace capacity. So tbf, Neoplan Skyliner, Volvo B11RLE Panorama, Setra S431DT or Van Hool Astromega is probably a better choice for the Buchan Express

Also @Jordan Adam what do you think about Mercedes Benz Tourismos? Suitable for the 10, X98/X99 despite Stagecoach not having any?
Tourismos are one of my favourite coaches ever.
The reason for suggesting MMC’s is that it avoids using coaches. This is because they aren’t designed for Buchan Express type work, instead being designed for long journeys. The short journeys on Buchan Xpress shorten the lifespan of coaches and create all sorts of reliability issues.
Wouldn’t be sure on Tourismo’s to be honest. I’ve always preferred a Volvo product.
 

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The reason for suggesting MMC’s is that it avoids using coaches. This is because they aren’t designed for Buchan Express type work, instead being designed for long journeys. The short journeys on Buchan Xpress shorten the lifespan of coaches and create all sorts of reliability issues.
Wouldn’t be sure on Tourismo’s to be honest. I’ve always preferred a Volvo product.

Don't worry. DD coaches like Panoramas or Astomegas are low floor anyway on the lower deck, just like E400 MMCs. So it's basically a DD version of a Panther LE like vehicle: you get coach comfort and easy access at the same time.
 

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The reason for suggesting MMC’s is that it avoids using coaches. This is because they aren’t designed for Buchan Express type work, instead being designed for long journeys. The short journeys on Buchan Xpress shorten the lifespan of coaches and create all sorts of reliability issues.
Wouldn’t be sure on Tourismo’s to be honest. I’ve always preferred a Volvo product.

About MMCs, I also think they will work as I stated before. If Stagecoach can use them on the 35 without any problems (apart from high winds), then I don't see why there would be a problem on using them on the 60/61/62/63/64/65/66/67/68/69.
 

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Interdecks going to Elgin? Do you mean the elites? Even though it is illegal to carry standees on coaches, I did have it once on a B7R operated 33C. The Interdecks (although can carry large amounts of passengers and are comfortable) are not really suitable for the Buchan corridor. They are designed for long distance, non stop driving and not short-ish stints up to Peterhead and Fraserburgh. This has had an effect on them as it is shortening their lifespan and leading to reliability issues. I think they’d be better off using E400MMC’s (possibly like the B5LH ones that Dundee have) as these can cope with the high capacity.
However, I have to disagree with you on the E200’s. The ones at Elgin (when I still lived there) were in a shocking state. Threadbare seats, rattles (typical for an ADL product I suppose) you name it! I had one once that wouldn’t change into 2nd gear (was swapped for a 35 MMC).

My local Stagecoach ones are fine. Maybe the only one that didn't impress much was 36433 (GX61 AYM), pretty sluggish.

@Jordan Adam I've been on 36056 which is one of my local ones (based at Worthing) and that's also okish, but I much prefer Voith Euro 5 ones when it comes to old style E200s that aren't Euro 6.
 

Jordan Adam

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Interdecks going to Elgin? Do you mean the elites? Even though it is illegal to carry standees on coaches, I did have it once on a B7R operated 33C. The Interdecks (although can carry large amounts of passengers and are comfortable) are not really suitable for the Buchan corridor. They are designed for long distance, non stop driving and not short-ish stints up to Peterhead and Fraserburgh. This has had an effect on them as it is shortening their lifespan and leading to reliability issues. I think they’d be better off using E400MMC’s (possibly like the B5LH ones that Dundee have) as these can cope with the high capacity.
However, I have to disagree with you on the E200’s. The ones at Elgin (when I still lived there) were in a shocking state. Threadbare seats, rattles (typical for an ADL product I suppose) you name it! I had one once that wouldn’t change into 2nd gear (was swapped for a 35 MMC).

I was referring to the Jonckheeres, Premieres, Profiles, Panthers and Elites that were used on the 10/35/305 in the past. Indeed it is illegal to have standees, however it doesn't stop it happening!

The issue with the Interdecks is the I-Shift gearbox rather than the entire coach itself. Plaxton offer the Panorama with the ZF Ecolife much like the Elites currently on the 10 (which are fantastic machines and very reliable), those would be ideal. E400MMCs wouldn't work as the passengers would complain constantly (as they have with the 35), what you need to remember is the Buchan Xpress basically exists because of the lack of train service, hence why it needs high spec vehicles. It also brings in the most revenue at Bluebird, hence how it can afford new vehicles every 5/6 years. In hindsight they should've bought more Elites to the same spec as the ones on the 10 for the 35 and just added a few extra peak short workings to/from Oldmeldrum.

The E200s were quite poor, but they've had work done on them lately and many have been refurbished inside, with the rest being done now.

E400 MMCs would be awesome for the Buchan Express, only issue is lack of luggace capacity. So tbf, Neoplan Skyliner, Volvo B11RLE Panorama, Setra S431DT or Van Hool Astromega is probably a better choice for the Buchan Express

Also @Jordan Adam what do you think about Mercedes Benz Tourismos? Suitable for the 10, X98/X99 despite Stagecoach not having any?
Tourismos are one of my favourite coaches ever.

Luggage capacity isn't an issue on the Buchan Xpress, however comfort is, hence why most passengers would be against any buses. Panoramas are the most ideal option as they're a standard type for the company. Tourismos are good, but again non-standard so very unlikely to be bought.

About MMCs, I also think they will work as I stated before. If Stagecoach can use them on the 35 without any problems (apart from high winds), then I don't see why there would be a problem on using them on the 60/61/62/63/64/65/66/67/68/69.

This is not true however. The E400MMCs on the 35 have been plagued with reliability issues and are loathed by both the passengers and drivers. They're good buses, but not on a route like the 35 regardless of winds.

Also the Buchan Xpress is only the 60/61/63/67/68. The 62 no longer exists, 64/65 are Central Coaches routes and the 66/69 are short local routes.

My local Stagecoach ones are fine. Maybe the only one that didn't impress much was 36433 (GX61 AYM), pretty sluggish.

@Jordan Adam I've been on 36056 which is one of my local ones (based at Worthing) and that's also okish, but I much prefer Voith Euro 5 ones when it comes to old style E200s that aren't Euro 6.

The issue with the 63 plates here is that they're only 3 speed, so they're pretty hopeless.
 

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I was referring to the Jonckheeres, Premieres, Profiles, Panthers and Elites that were used on the 10/35/305 in the past. Indeed it is illegal to have standees, however it doesn't stop it happening!

The issue with the Interdecks is the I-Shift gearbox rather than the entire coach itself. Plaxton offer the Panorama with the ZF Ecolife much like the Elites currently on the 10 (which are fantastic machines and very reliable), those would be ideal. E400MMCs wouldn't work as the passengers would complain constantly (as they have with the 35), what you need to remember is the Buchan Xpress basically exists because of the lack of train service, hence why it needs high spec vehicles. It also brings in the most revenue at Bluebird, hence how it can afford new vehicles every 5/6 years. In hindsight they should've bought more Elites to the same spec as the ones on the 10 for the 35 and just added a few extra peak short workings to/from Oldmeldrum.

The E200s were quite poor, but they've had work done on them lately and many have been refurbished inside, with the rest being done now.



Luggage capacity isn't an issue on the Buchan Xpress, however comfort is, hence why most passengers would be against any buses. Panoramas are the most ideal option as they're a standard type for the company. Tourismos are good, but again non-standard so very unlikely to be bought.



This is not true however. The E400MMCs on the 35 have been plagued with reliability issues and are loathed by both the passengers and drivers. They're good buses, but not on a route like the 35 regardless of winds.

Also the Buchan Xpress is only the 60/61/63/67/68. The 62 no longer exists, 64/65 are Central Coaches routes and the 66/69 are short local routes.



The issue with the 63 plates here is that they're only 3 speed, so they're pretty hopeless.

I suppose the only reason why the 35 got DDs is because it was having the same issues as the Buchan Express is currently having?
 

Volvodart

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No coach is available of a suitable size/capacity. The only alternative would have been a frequency increase.
 

Jordan Adam

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I suppose the only reason why the 35 got DDs is because it was having the same issues as the Buchan Express is currently having?

The reason they did is because the 35 is having capacity issues however due to the route any vehicle longer than 12.8M is unsuitable.

No coach is available of a suitable size/capacity. The only alternative would have been a frequency increase.

It would of course help if the route hadn't had a 50% frequency cut over the last 5 years! If they swapped the 35 and 38 around so the 38 went to Portgordon instead of the 35 it might be possible that they could get 14M Tri-axles on it. In the past Skyliners and Panthers have made it up on the odd run to Banff. However i do think the simple option here would've been to increase to a 20 minute frequency Aberdeen - Banff, perhaps with a Aberdeen - Berryden - Airport - Oldmeldrum - Inverurie that runs just ahead of the Elgin runs too.
 

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Well then maybe Stagecoach could get Citaro C2 bendy buses with luxurious coach seating and overhead racks!
 

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I was also suggesting ex London 25 Citaros but I quickly thought it wouldn't be a good idea as they are too old. Those being 04 reg are currently 16 years old this year, so brand new Citaro C2s would be the better option.

Maybe Stagecoach could even think about getting C2s in hybrid instead of diesel?
 

Jordan Adam

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Well then maybe Stagecoach could get Citaro C2 bendy buses with luxurious coach seating and overhead racks!

However the vehicles i was referring to were still coaches and could seat 76, A Citaro G only seats about 50-55! Size restrictions in the UK at the time meant that 15M Tri-axle coaches were not allowed on the road.
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I like your out of the box thinking, dont lose it.

Yes the out of the box thinking is something...
 

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Apparently, that's the only reason why they use coaches, due to the fact that unlike in many parts of the UK (including the South East of England, where I am currently living), double deckers can't really be used in North Scotland as high winds are much more frequent there as if it happens pretty much everyday.

I am trying to understand why are double deckers unsuitable in high wind operations?
This isn't the first time I've seen you refer to the high winds in the north of Scotland, as if it's a phenomenon not seen anywhere else in the UK! Yes it gets a bit blowy at times, but I don't think it's any worse here than anywhere else. Deckers were used extensively in the Far North for the Dounreay contracts, and they were full-height Ailsas. The idea that we're constantly being battered by gales is somewhat, er... overblown! :)

I was referring to the Jonckheeres, Premieres, Profiles, Panthers and Elites that were used on the 10/35/305 in the past. Indeed it is illegal to have standees, however it doesn't stop it happening!
Not quite, the Interurbans were intended to carry up to 8 standees, and had hand-holds towards the front end for this purpose.
 

Volvodart

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I do not think they were certified as such, apart from some Fife had, which included ex Bluebird ones. More recently, at one time, Bluebird said they were looking at this to deal with capacity problems, but nothing came of this.
 

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Not quite, the Interurbans were intended to carry up to 8 standees, and had hand-holds towards the front end for this purpose.
Indeed! Easy way is to check the legal capacity notice which will state number of standees permitted (or not).

Some Alexander TC bodied Tigers had about 25 standees permitted, no grab rails just the luggage racks...
 

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