Stagecoach South & South East

[SeveerYeliab]

Google suggest there are only three bus stops uniquely served by this route, and all are within 0.3 miles of stops served by the 10. I suspect the big question will be how many passengers are there on the rest of the route to justify the half-hourly service when combined with the 10. It is itself a relatively recent invention, which along with the diversion of the 10 replaced the 77 and 78.

Indeed, the 77/78 were withdrawn and replaced with a 1/2 hourly number 10 (with one per hour continuing to Cheriton and one per hour the full length Ashford). Then, the 70 came in a few months after when the 10 was diverted away from Horn St (replaced by now withdrawn 104) and the 17 was diverted in Cheriton to cover the bits of the Cheriton loop no longer served (this diversion of the 17 also now being withdrawn). Loadings on the 10 are pretty decent during the day through Golden Valley etc., notably with a number passengers making links from Golden Valley / Shorncliffe to Hythe and beyond, which was not possible pre 2017. I'd be very surprised if KCC funded anything for the 70, just as there really won't be any overcrowding concerns for the remaining 10 journeys, and there's no schools flows.

I know this route started as the 140 when the retail park was built at Park Farm, and then I think had developer funding at Hawkinge (or was extended commercially to replace diverting journeys on the 16, or a combination of both), so it's always been a bit "out on a limb" in comparison to other routes.

I think there's some current developer funding on the 73 in Hawkinge, as a few years ago buses were diverted via Page Rd / Pannell Drive (to the opposition of certain locals who make a habit of blocking the bus route).

These were revised relatively recently as part of the shake up of the 91, and have their roots in the former Town & Around 127. I suspect ENCTS passes make up a good proportion of the passengers, and the question will be what's the drop in passenger numbers like. Like you, I suspect some form of lower frequency combined service will pop up to carry as many bits as don't fit elsewhere.

Indeed, these have only just been separated from the 91 Folkestone Town Tourbus. I was very surprised that the 74 was kept as 2bph for the East Cliff, as passenger loadings are very low indeed on these runs - and the solo managed just fine with the schools.

As for the 16A, the other schools bus for this area - the 10A has only just been cut, so the 16A is absolutely rammed after school. The 105 is always very busy, as with the 16B, however I believe there'd be enough capacity on other schools runs to pick up the slack for these.

Regarding the controllers working out of the Bus Station after runout, the same happens at Dover with controllers moving to Pencester Rd, so the same may be possible in the new layout of bus stops in the Town Centre if some sort of driver / control room facilities are included in the plans.

 

[Typhoon]

Would another operator be interested the Folkestone depot?

I wouldn't have thought so, mainly because the site would make more if sold to developers (#288).

 

[RogerOut]

Stagecoach South East like other operators, are trying to keep the business as strong as possible. So sadly closing a depot, will affect the staff there.

Dover is about 8 miles away, Ashford about 15 miles away.

Transferring isn’t always that easy, especially for staff without cars, or transport. Particularly working early or late shifts. It will impact people in different ways.

Haven’t Arriva also closed depots up in Cheshire?

If bus operators are relying on alot on government money, is it time for re -nationalisation?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Would another operator be interested the Folkestone depot?

Which other operator do you think would be interested?

 

[E-Rail]

It's quite a fall from grace for Folkestone. It used to be second only to Herne Bay in terms of revenue.

 

[RogerOut]

I always thought Folkestone was one of the more profitable places? However , if in theory the routes will keep being operated, the revenue wouldn’t go down as such.
People in Folkestone still uses buses, no matter where the drivers are based.

 

[E-Rail]

Changing demographics in Folkestone. High Speed rail to London has ruined the Kent Coast towns, filling them with London commuters and second homers. The towns have become dormitory ghost towns through the week and had the life and economies sucked out of them.

 

[duncombec]

Indeed, these have only just been separated from the 91 Folkestone Town Tourbus.

Thanks for the laugh here!

If bus operators are relying on alot on government money, is it time for re -nationalisation?

To which I'd ask: would renationalisation solve the driver shortage, reduce inflation costs, increase passenger numbers back to pre-Covid levels and provide adequate funding? It doesn't matter who owns the buses until you sort out those at the moment!

It's quite a fall from grace for Folkestone. It used to be second only to Herne Bay in terms of revenue.

I always thought Folkestone was one of the more profitable places? However , if in theory the routes will keep being operated, the revenue wouldn’t go down as such.
People in Folkestone still uses buses, no matter where the drivers are based.

Revenue is unlikely to be the only cause here. The relatively cramped site, access/egress, (potentially) difficult neighbours and dealing with a site that's been in use for 107 years are all going to play a part. No sensible business will have made a decision like this quickly: what if there is a need for sizeable and expensive repairs or renewal required, that would cost more than the depot makes?

Changing demographics in Folkestone. High Speed rail to London has ruined the Kent Coast towns, filling them with London commuters and second homers. The towns have become dormitory ghost towns through the week and had the life and economies sucked out of them.

Yet interestingly, one of the reasons given for lower school bus patronage (Kent has a very high proportion of pupils travelling on "public" bus services), especially in the mornings, is because parents are working from home more and are taking their children to school themselves, rather than them "needing" to get the bus.

 

[E-Rail]

Let's not forget that Stagecoach is now owned by, to all intents and purpose, asset strippers. Kent Road in Cheriton is prime real estate and certainly won't be the last to go. I have a feeling that what's coming down the pipeline is going to make Souter and Gloag look like preservationists in the 90s.

 

[RogerOut]

With regards to difficult neighbours for bus depots. Im afraid I have little sympathy. The people that move to these places know that the bus depot is there, they shouldn’t live there if that’s a problem for them.

Both Kent and East Sussex have made cuts to bus services , due to a loss in passenger numbers due to covid.
However, the South East is one of the most populated regions outside London, and more housing estates are being built in the region , I’d like to think that bus usage will increase again.

The problem is it’s a vicious circle. The public can’t use buses if they’re getting an unreliable service. But the bus companies don’t want to run buses that aren’t making money.

Also worth noting many TFL garages are on prime sites for housing. Will these places be closed and moved in the future?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Let's not forget that Stagecoach is now owned by, to all intents and purpose, asset strippers. Kent Road in Cheriton is prime real estate and certainly won't be the last to go. I have a feeling that what's coming down the pipeline is going to make Souter and Gloag look like preservationists in the 90s.

Let's not also forget that passenger figures are down to 85-90% of pre-Covid levels, services have been cut (so spare capacity in depots), there's a massive increase in costs in both driver wages and other costs (e.g. parts).

If you look at the other depots that could have closed... Dover and Herne Bay were both built in the last ten to fifteen years; even Ashford is relatively modern (1980s?) compared to Folkestone. Doubtless Westwood will go (and be relocated) when a developer makes an offer. Folkestone (Cheriton) was the obvious one under threat, given its age and location and the value of the site as @duncombec points out. Dover depot is less than half the size of Cheriton - think of the difference in business rates and utilities and that's before you talk about any repairs to be considered on an elderly building

When talking about asset stripping, perhaps we should remember that didn't East Kent cash in on the most desirable depot property (i.e. Canterbury) when they could and without replacement? Ashford and Dover were sold when developers wanted them too. The demise of Herne Bay was a long time coming too IIRC. Cheriton was a survivor

However, the South East is one of the most populated regions outside London, and more housing estates are being built in the region , I’d like to think that bus usage will increase again.

@E-Rail is absolutely right about the changing demographics of the area. Yes, there's more housing but courtesy of HS1, these areas are now much more dormitory towns for London. I've limited experience with Stagecoach's operations there but can't imagine that they aren't impacted by a decline in concessionary travel and that an upside is new residents is negligible even if they are working from home a few days a week.

As for other depots going, in London or elsewhere... We're already seeing it. Similarly, big depots like Go North East (Chester le Street) and Arriva (Jesmond) have gone in the last year: both were old large sites that cost a bit to run and, in the former example, could be folded into existing depots. There will be more closure across the industry - that much is for certain.

 

[E-Rail]

Folkestone's closure has been expected for a long time, it's not a surprise. Stagecoach reduced it to outstation status in 1997/8 with a view to closing it back then. Engineering was split with big buses being maintained by Ashford and minibuses by Dover. Oversight of New Romney garage also moved to Ashford and Folkestone's involvement in the 711 (to Brighton at the time) passed to Dover depot. It was likely only saved by the fact that Ashford came within months of closure (or sale to Arriva) in 1999/2000 due to falling passenger numbers and chronic driver shortages (nothing changes...) I'd left Stagecoach by the time it became a fully functioning depot again, although I think it was around 2006 when operation of the 711 returned to Folkestone to allow capacity at Dover for the then new network of Diamond routes and the Enviro 300s.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Folkestone's closure has been expected for a long time, it's not a surprise. Stagecoach reduced it to outstation status in 1997/8 with a view to closing it back then. It was likely only saved by the fact that Ashford came within months of closure (or sale to Arriva) in 2000 due to falling passenger numbers and chronic driver shortages (nothing changes...)

Hard to imagine Arriva buying Ashford but in 1999/2000, Stagecoach was doing a lot of strange things during the Kinski era. Of course, now it's Stagecoach that are more likely to nibble away at Arriva territory... wonder if they'll be increasing their Canterbury to Maidstone service when Arriva depart Sittingbourne

 

[E-Rail]

Hard to imagine Arriva buying Ashford but in 1999/2000, Stagecoach was doing a lot of strange things during the Kinski era. Of course, now it's Stagecoach that are more likely to nibble away at Arriva territory... wonder if they'll be increasing their Canterbury to Maidstone service when Arriva depart Sittingbourne

It wasn't as strange as it might have seemed. Arriva had their outstation at Tenterden at the time and were still involved in the Canterbury to Hastings 400 corridor. Ashford was in dire straits at that time. It was mostly staffed by lodge drivers from other subsidiaries. Ashford's sale or closure only disappeared off the table when East Kent and East Sussex once again came under the management of Stagecoach South in late 2000.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It wasn't as strange as it might have seemed. Arriva had their outstation at Tenterden at the time and were still involved in the Canterbury to Hastings 400 corridor. Ashford was in dire straits at that time. It was mostly staffed by lodge drivers from other subsidiaries. Ashford's sale or closure only disappeared off the table when East Kent and East Sussex once again came under the management of Stagecoach South in late 2000.

More strange given where we are now with Arriva shedding operations, and how Stagecoach subsequently embarked on a policy of incremental expansion in many areas with a view to increasing market share/ousting the incumbent (see South Devon, North Devon, Guildford, Northampton). Certainly, the comparison between Stagecoach and Arriva nowadays is stark - in some ways, I almost expected the 12 to go next as Arriva retrench.

 

[M803UYA]

Yet interestingly, one of the reasons given for lower school bus patronage (Kent has a very high proportion of pupils travelling on "public" bus services), especially in the mornings, is because parents are working from home more and are taking their children to school themselves, rather than them "needing" to get the bus.

The Kent Freedom Pass and the maintenance of a selective school system means a lot of school services are commercially operated and Kent County Council makes a payment for each journey made by a passholder. As East Kent didn't allow child fares before 0930 (unlike Arriva) it meant that they received the adult single fare equivalent for each passenger using a freedom pass. The scheme worked for Stagecoach whereas it was a millstone around Arriva's neck.

It wasn't as strange as it might have seemed. Arriva had their outstation at Tenterden at the time and were still involved in the Canterbury to Hastings 400 corridor. Ashford was in dire straits at that time. It was mostly staffed by lodge drivers from other subsidiaries. Ashford's sale or closure only disappeared off the table when East Kent and East Sussex once again came under the management of Stagecoach South in late 2000.

Heath Williams who was MD of East Kent before he left and went to Arriva was an Ashford resident (and still might be) - Jeremy Cooper who I worked for is a native of Folkestone and joined East Kent as the Operations Manager at Ashford depot. So if there were loyalties to an area that wouldn't be surprising. Certainly the 711/100 group being run out of Folkestone underpinned the depot as did the 16/17 group.

When I look back at my time with the company we couldn't put double deck buses into service fast enough. It really was boom time. The usual way of expanding a service was to use the freedom pass revenues for the bus, and then use the idle bus to beef up the timetable offpeak. Only once that was commercially sustainable did the offpeak workings turn into all day ones.

 

[Mike99]

The Kent Freedom Pass and the maintenance of a selective school system means a lot of school services are commercially operated and Kent County Council makes a payment for each journey made by a passholder. As East Kent didn't allow child fares before 0930 (unlike Arriva) it meant that they received the adult single fare equivalent for each passenger using a freedom pass. The scheme worked for Stagecoach whereas it was a millstone around Arriva's neck.


Heath Williams who was MD of East Kent before he left and went to Arriva was an Ashford resident (and still might be) - Jeremy Cooper who I worked for is a native of Folkestone and joined East Kent as the Operations Manager at Ashford depot. So if there were loyalties to an area that wouldn't be surprising. Certainly the 711/100 group being run out of Folkestone underpinned the depot as did the 16/17 group.

When I look back at my time with the company we couldn't put double deck buses into service fast enough. It really was boom time. The usual way of expanding a service was to use the freedom pass revenues for the bus, and then use the idle bus to beef up the timetable offpeak. Only once that was commercially sustainable did the offpeak workings turn into all day ones.

Was Jeremy Cooper the depot manager at Hastings c1998/1999 following on from Mike Ford?

 

[Typhoon]

More strange given where we are now with Arriva shedding operations, and how Stagecoach subsequently embarked on a policy of incremental expansion in many areas with a view to increasing market share/ousting the incumbent (see South Devon, North Devon, Guildford, Northampton). Certainly, the comparison between Stagecoach and Arriva nowadays is stark - in some ways, I almost expected the 12 to go next as Arriva retrench.

I'm surprised the 12 is still half hourly and they haven't done some pruning off peak. Actually, if Arriva did ditch it, I wonder whether Ham's would be interested (pure speculation)?

 

[E-Rail]

Yes, Heath Williams became MD in 1999 when Stagecoach South's Lewes HQ closed and management of East Kent and the Hastings area passed back to Canterbury.
I'm pretty sure though that Heath never worked alongside Jeremy Cooper though. It was Jeremy Hooper (with an H) that was Commercial Manager with Heath. Jeremy Cooper was there in the Paul Southgate era.

If I remember right, it was Sean Smales who replaced Mike Ford at Hastings. He was then replaced by Sean Catt.

 

[RogerOut]

So Go- Ahead North East closed a site as did Arriva in the same region? So this isn’t unique to Stagecoach then, the other large operators have closed depots too.
Arriva also closed a site in Guildford didn’t they? And also a site in Cheshire, possibly Macclesfield if I remember rightly.

Didn’t Arriva operate out of Hawkhurst, which is now a Tesco store?

Arriva seem to be a in a bit of a state.

Is Tunbridge Wells safe? The site was only opened about 5 or 6 years ago..

 

[Simon75]

So Go- Ahead North East closed a site as did Arriva in the same region? So this isn’t unique to Stagecoach then, the other large operators have closed depots too.
Arriva also closed a site in Guildford didn’t they? And also a site in Cheshire, possibly Macclesfield if I remember rightly.

Didn’t Arriva operate out of Hawkhurst, which is now a Tesco store?

Arriva seem to be a in a bit of a state.

Is Tunbridge Wells safe? The site was only opened about 5 or 6 years ago..

Arriva closed Macclesfield and Winsford. Oswestry due to close in a month (Macclesfield outstation now owned by D&G)
Stagecoach reopened Guildford

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So Go- Ahead North East closed a site as did Arriva in the same region? So this isn’t unique to Stagecoach then, the other large operators have closed depots too.
Arriva also closed a site in Guildford didn’t they? And also a site in Cheshire, possibly Macclesfield if I remember rightly.

Didn’t Arriva operate out of Hawkhurst, which is now a Tesco store?

Arriva seem to be a in a bit of a state.

Is Tunbridge Wells safe? The site was only opened about 5 or 6 years ago..

Arriva closed Macclesfield and Winsford. Oswestry due to close in a month (Macclesfield outstation now owned by D&G)
Stagecoach reopened Guildford

Obviously, the situation with Guildford is totally different to Folkestone.

• Arriva exited the local market entirely in Guildford which resulted in Stagecoach massively increasing their business in the area such that their local depot (Peasmarsh) couldn't cope. It's been mentioned (but can't comment on the accuracy) that Stagecoach has a short term deal on Guildford whilst they sort options and the owner/developer also gets their plans in order.
• In Folkestone, Stagecoach isn't exiting the area; they are simply retaining the work (in the main) and operating it from nearby depots.

The differences are also being highlighted in similar moves across the country by firms. In some places, firms have simply exited the market (as Arriva did in Guildford and in Cheshire). In other instances, they have closed a local base depot, retained the strongest work and surrendered the stuff that is low margin and difficult to operate from a distance. This is evident in Go North East (Chester le Street - some work picked up by Weardale), Arriva North East (Jesmond - work picked up by Stagecoach and Go North East). Stagecoach closed Blackwood depot in South Wales, but has retained the work (in the main) and just spread it into neighbouring depots...very much the plan for Folkestone.

Staying in Kent and on topic, remember that Arriva Southern Counties closed the Sheerness depot and surrendered much of the work to Chalkwell. They retained a half hourly 333/334 Maidstone to Sheerness route. It prompted a speculative and competitive Canterbury to Maidstone Stagecoach route every 30 mins, so Sittingbourne to Maidstone had four buses per hour in the summer of 2021. Both operators stepped back to hourly frequencies but Arriva has taken the view that the 334 is unsustainable; whether that prompts Stagecoach to up their offering and extend the 3 from Faversham via Sittingbourne to Maidstone to maintain the half hourly frequency... we shall see?

As an aside, Hawkhurst closed in 2008 so a long time ago now.

 

[Typhoon]

As an aside, Hawkhurst closed in 2008 so a long time ago now.

It was also a pretty small operation at the best of times. 2008 must have been about the time that they lost or gave up the Ashford - Tenterden - Tunbridge Wells service(s) where has seen a number of different operators in the last twenty years.

 

[Kevpbus]

It was also a pretty small operation at the best of times. 2008 must have been about the time that they lost or gave up the Ashford - Tenterden - Tunbridge Wells service(s) where has seen a number of different operators in the last twenty years.

Indeed, it was the loss of contracts that resulted in the closure of Hawkhurst and its outstation at Tenterden.

 

[SeveerYeliab]

The Kent County Council bus updates page has been updated for July, and (if what is on the page is not subject to change) KCC have decided to fund nothing of the under threat Folkestone services. This will lead to the complete withdrawal of routes 70, 73, 74& 75 leaving many areas completely isolated. What's more, schools service 16A and 16B have been confirmed as withdrawn. Link

Also, from 13th August there are some absolutely savage cuts confirmed to Ashford services. In a recent council meeting, Stagecoach confirmed that the Ashford depot was still not sustainable and that changes had to be made (plus, I imagine a lowering of the PVR ready for the take-on of Folkestone work in September, as the driver situation is still quite dodgy there).

Changes summarised below: (The KCC document is in a weird table so I've summarised below).

1/1A/1X - Route change, removing the service from Wye
2 - Withdrawn leaving Bethersden, High Halden and Great Chart without a service.
2A - Sunday service withdrawn and service removed from Park Farm
10/10A (Folkestone Depot ATM but will be Ashford in Sept) - Service withdrawn from Eureka Park, Lympne and Port Lympne. Sunday service withdrawn.
10X - Sunday service withdrawn.
A/D - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening services after 2100.
B - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening services after 2100.
C - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening service after 2000.
G - Peak time journeys withdrawn.

I guess of note, is the complete withdrawal of the 2, leaving Ashford's nearest town of Tenterden connected by just 5 journeys a day on the 2A (plus no railway connection).

What's even more infuriating is that these changes come at a time where the Hastings and Eastbourne depots are just about to have route improvements (in frequencies, last buses and Sunday services), funded by the BSIP+ (bus service improvement plan) by East Sussex County Council.

 

[Man of Kent]

The Kent County Council bus updates page has been updated for July, and (if what is on the page is not subject to change) KCC have decided to fund nothing of the under threat Folkestone services. This will lead to the complete withdrawal of routes 70, 73, 74& 75 leaving many areas completely isolated. What's more, schools service 16A and 16B have been confirmed as withdrawn. Link

Also, from 13th August there are some absolutely savage cuts confirmed to Ashford services. In a recent council meeting, Stagecoach confirmed that the Ashford depot was still not sustainable and that changes had to be made (plus, I imagine a lowering of the PVR ready for the take-on of Folkestone work in September, as the driver situation is still quite dodgy there).

Changes summarised below: (The KCC document is in a weird table so I've summarised below).

1/1A/1X - Route change, removing the service from Wye
2 - Withdrawn leaving Bethersden, High Halden and Great Chart without a service.
2A - Sunday service withdrawn and service removed from Park Farm
10/10A (Folkestone Depot ATM but will be Ashford in Sept) - Service withdrawn from Eureka Park, Lympne and Port Lympne. Sunday service withdrawn.
10X - Sunday service withdrawn.
A/D - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening services after 2100.
B - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening services after 2100.
C - Reduced frequencies and withdrawal of late evening service after 2000.
G - Peak time journeys withdrawn.

I guess of note, is the complete withdrawal of the 2, leaving Ashford's nearest town of Tenterden connected by just 5 journeys a day on the 2A (plus no railway connection).

What's even more infuriating is that these changes come at a time where the Hastings and Eastbourne depots are just about to have route improvements (in frequencies, last buses and Sunday services), funded by the BSIP+ (bus service improvement plan) by East Sussex County Council.

While Stagecoach has laid out its proposals, I'm afraid that the breakneck speed at which they have been made has not yet enabled the county council to consider what can be replaced, and at what cost. That work is underway, but it will be some time before firm details emerge.

 

[alex397]

These cuts are awful. There’s no way we can encourage more people to use public transport with such savage cuts as that. They’ll just be services for people with no other option. Meanwhile loads of brand new housing estates are popping up everywhere with no provision for public transport. Just more cars on the road, more congestion, more pollution. And more isolation for those who cannot drive.
Hopefully, as Man of Kent says, there will be some sort of replacement for these.

There will be quite a contrast to East Sussex with their upcoming improvements.

 

[Typhoon]

I guess of note, is the complete withdrawal of the 2, leaving Ashford's nearest town of Tenterden connected by just 5 journeys a day on the 2A (plus no railway connection).
.

I am not doubting that the situation is grim but surely there are currently more than 5 journeys a day on the 2A currently and there is no indication either on the Kent County Council or Stagecoach website that the situation will change, for instance, there are 7 on a Saturday and appear to be 9 during the week. Those reliant on public transport in Tenterden might start turning their eyes to Maidstone.

Much of the rest they will say is covered by other services (eg Eureka Park by 666, 70 by the 10, Park Farm [Ashford] by the B [and whenever I have been on the 2A we seem to do is to tour the fairly ordinary estate but only dropping off and picking up at Tesco - there will be those from rural areas for whom it will be a problem], Hawkinge by the 16, East Cliff - the 102 stops 'near by'). I am not saying that is right, and if you have mobility issues nearby may not be near enough. It does appear that Stagecoach are retreating towards its core network. Moving the 10 from Lympne is somewhat ironic just after it appears Otterpool Park is all systems go (it is next door) and includes roads suitable for buses in the plan)!

I wonder whether there are opportunities for independents like Kent Coach Tours to extend its network slightly. I thought there were mutterances about buses for Chilmington Green at one time, (and could serve Great Chart)- now it seems to be dependent on cycle paths!! Having said that, when I have caught buses in Great Chart, there hasn't exactly been a queue. The problem is there is a vicious circle - not enough passengers -> service reductions -> fewer passengers. I don't know the answer!

 

[RogerOut]

Silly question here but isn’t the government meant to be funding county councils across the UK to improve public transport?

As mentioned, East Sussex is going to get improved bus services. More services on evenings and weekends, including later services.

What went so wrong in Kent?

As for Ashford depot not being sustainable , if Folkestone depot is closing in September, surely Ashford will be more relevant?

 

[Typhoon]

Silly question here but isn’t the government meant to be funding county councils across the UK to improve public transport?

As mentioned, East Sussex is going to get improved bus services. More services on evenings and weekends, including later services.

What went so wrong in Kent?

As for Ashford depot not bing sustainable , if Folkstone depot is closing in September, surely Ashford will be more relevant?

Kent is having a Big Free Bus Travel Weekend next week:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kent-medway-free-bus-travel-weekend-24-25-june.249902/

an it depends on how much money they get (remember that East Sussex has invested in the DfT's favourite - DRT)!

As far as Ashford goes, itis the network I guess, which they are cutting back. it will take on the 10 for certain, what else, I am not sure. The 16 and 18 will go somewhere, plus some remaining locals.