Stalybridge mileposts

Status
Not open for further replies.

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,403
Location
York
In a 1914 book of Gradient Tables of the LNWR that I have gradients and distances of all the company's lines are listed to the nearest one-sixteenth of a mile and the starting-points of the sequences are given, in some cases from a station but in most from the appropriate junction (as, for example, "Distance from Proof House Junction.").

For the company's line from Stalybridge to Leeds the starting-point is given as "Distance from Manchester Exchange" and the first entry is Miles 8 to Miles 8⅛, between Stalybridge and Mossley, rising at 1 in 125. The RCH maps shew Exchange as lying 21 chains west of Victoria, and of course the line between Manchester and Stalybridge was an L&Y line, originally into its own terminus at the latter place. Today's Sectional Appendix appears to shew that the Leeds line is measured throughout from Victoria by a continuation of the L&Y sequence. Does anyone know whether the line was re-measured at any time to run from Victoria, or whether there is in fact a discontinuity in the measurement-sequence at Stalybridge today to account for those 21 chains?

(A slight but interesting complication is that the line from Heaton Norris Junction (via Hooley Hill—the all-LNW route) also shews Stalybridge at 8 miles, i.e. exactly the same as apparently from Manchester Exchange.)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
20,278
Location
Nottingham
I think a discrepancy of 21 chains would be recognised by a change of mileage and ELR in the Sectional Appendix. There is no such item on my Quail map (although it isn't the latest one and pre-dates the recent re-modelling).

The LNWR initially used Victoria, Exchange only being opened later. So I wonder if the 1914 chainages actually ran from Victoria and the book quoted "Exchange" out of company loyalty? Would it be possible to establish this by comparing the chainage of identifiable features east of Stalybridge to see if they match between the 1914 book and the modern Sectional Appendix?
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
4,767
Location
Leeds
I have two editions of the Quail map, the current one from 2013 and an old one from 1990. Any mileages in the Stalybridge area which are shown in both differ by at most one chain, presumably because of the 2012 remodelling. The newer edition actually says "miles from Manchester Victoria" near the 8 milepost. There are no obvious gaps or jumps in the distances.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,403
Location
York
I think a discrepancy of 21 chains would be recognised by a change of mileage and ELR in the Sectional Appendix. There is no such item on my Quail map (although it isn't the latest one and pre-dates the recent re-modelling).

The LNWR initially used Victoria, Exchange only being opened later. So I wonder if the 1914 chainages actually ran from Victoria and the book quoted "Exchange" out of company loyalty? Would it be possible to establish this by comparing the chainage of identifiable features east of Stalybridge to see if they match between the 1914 book and the modern Sectional Appendix?
Yes, I feel sure that a discrepancy of a full quarter of a mile could not fail to be acknowledged. As you say, Victoria came first, and for the best part of 40 years the LNW Manchester to Leeds route started out over the L&Y branch line (and, of course, returned to the L&Y at Heaton Lodge!), even though the end-on junction at Stalybridge was with the MS&L branch from Guide Bridge. I think you may very well be correct in suggesting that in this particular table the reference to Exchange got in by some sort of accident.
There are few precisely comparable locations, as can be seen in the attached image, the best being Thornhill LNW Jn, given as 32¼ miles in the table and 32m 16ch in Quail. Leeds Canal Jn at 42⅝ miles does not now exist, it seems. Obviously the level from 15 miles to 18⅛ miles is through Standedge Tunnel, but there's nothing precisely comparable in Quail, and there's also no modern distance for the third shaft of Morley Tunnel at 37¼ miles.
Old OS maps shew that in 1848 there was a 7 milepost on the L&Y line just short of Stalybridge, whilst the last full-mile post shewn on the MS&L line was 2. The first MP indicated on the Huddersfield line, at the crossing of "Rassbottom Street" is not a full-mile post and so does not have a printed distance.The first six-inch map shewing Diggle shews milepost 15 to the immediate south of the station. So the OS maps confirm that the original mileposting was measured through from Manchester, which can only have meant Victoria, and suggest that there was never any change, even after the opening of Exchnage and various additional lines. So the compiler of the 1914 book does seem to have got it wrong.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
 

Attachments

  • Diggle station 1854.png
    Diggle station 1854.png
    1.1 MB · Views: 18
  • LNW Leeds line gradients.jpg
    LNW Leeds line gradients.jpg
    329.1 KB · Views: 17

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,602
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
Are there comparable L+Y / LNWR Line Diagram books similar to the NER Line Diagram books available?
These give detail of all features on a route similar to this of South Elmsall.
These were produced by the NER for all its lines in about 1913 - 14
On average usually 1mile to a page but depends on complexity.

S ELMSALL BCH 1A.JPG
 

pdeaves

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
3,809
Location
Gateway to the South West
Are there comparable L+Y / LNWR Line Diagram books similar to the NER Line Diagram books available?
These give detail of all features on a route similar to this of South Elmsall.
These were produced by the NER for all its lines in about 1913 - 14
On average usually 1mile to a page but depends on complexity.
Ooh, are other diagrams in this set available online? Thanks!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
20,278
Location
Nottingham
From the modern Five Mile Diagram (subject to copyright so I can't post it) the level at Standedge ends at MP18.5 at the Marsden end, give or take a chain or so. Unfortunately the plan covering Diggle seems to be missing so I can't give you the chainage for the other end, but does the Marsden one correlate?
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,403
Location
York
From the modern Five Mile Diagram (subject to copyright so I can't post it) the level at Standedge ends at MP18.5 at the Marsden end, give or take a chain or so. Unfortunately the plan covering Diggle seems to be missing so I can't give you the chainage for the other end, but does the Marsden one correlate?
It correlates exactly. The 18⅛ I gave earlier is wrong — I misread the scan. The original, and the scan when I enlarge it, is clearly 18½. The 15 at the other end is shewn on the early OS map as just a few chains away from the tunnel, at the point where the road that crosses the line used to go straight across before at the widening the 45° bend northwards was put in.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top