Standard 9F no. 92219 off to the Highlands

[Flying Phil]

Despite the doom mongers, I am glad that this locomotive is being saved for restoration eventually. Yes, it will be very expensive (approx £900K) - but a new big engine will cost far more (P2 approx £5M).
There are several heritage railway expanding or planning to, there are many more running now than ever before. The supply of steam locomotives is virtually fixed and big engines do attract more general customers. The Southern Locomotives Ltd are hiring out their 4 running Bulleid Pacifics and are restoring their other three!

 

[Alanko]

No, because often people who challenge it aren't prepared to put their hands in their pockets or role up their sleeves and get stuck in. Both necessary for a successful restoration and yes, I have been involved with a restoration of a locomotive (admittedly a diesel).

Why put time and effort into something so tenuous? I've seen this strange dichotomy before: don't dare criticise our preservation plans, keyboard warrior/please come and volunteer your time and effort into fixing our thing and give us money as well, please.

This 9F looks like a basketcase with no obviously realistic, measurable plan in place to get it running again. My elbow grease isn't going to help if there is no money or plan in place.

There must be plenty of steam locos in "static exhibit" condition that would be much cheaper to bring back into service than this pile of rusty metal. Bigger bang for fewer bucks.

The repatriated 8F in Bo'ness matches that description to some degree. Glasgow-built, as well!

 

[Sheldonian]

Cant quite see what the debate is about. Who knows what plans may or may not be put together in future.
Probably will remain an interesting exibit of engineering dereliction, but i would sooner have it around than not.
Once engines have gone, they certainly cant be bought back.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

Well that's surely the business of the EVR.

You say it's taking up 'valuable space' but in fact that space might not be particularly valuable - we (well, I at any rate) have no knowledge of the value of that space.

Isn't it up to the EVR to decide whether it wants to store the loco.? And similarly, it's up to them how much they charge, if anything, for the privilege.

It seems this thread has gone from telling an owner what he should do with his loco (ie scrap it) to telling heritage railways how they should manage their space (ie don't store locos being used as Christmas trees).

The ownership and storage of unrestored locos are not something that I let worry me, as I don't own any locos, and have no financial interest in any heritage railway.

If I had some financial interest in the EVR, perhaps then I might feel I should look into the matter, form an opinion and express it within that organisation.

And I believe the point Marmaduke was making was that space is usually at a premium on HR's and in my experience and I have a fair bit in restoration circles, very few HR's are savvy when it come to drawing up a commercial contract between the owner / restorer and themselves.
I'm pretty sure that the people on this forum have HR's and the whole preservation picture at heart, however noting your responses to various contributors, it would suggest you have little or no clue as to the workings of a railway.
They are businesses after all and as such as well as ensuring the financial viability, management are faced with ever increasing issues particularly increased energy costs.
Practically speaking they are always going to first look to utilising working locomotives, followed by units that need restoring, with owners who have the necessary financial resources.
Sadly there are too many people who embark on purchasing and restoration only to run out of steam when they realise the enormity and financial burden it will take.
The 9F and the 37 referenced of which I have seen them both at close quarters are classic cases of requiring massive amounts of money, time and equipment to get them restored.
Even if the owner or owners have the money, that's only one part of the equation, because having a supportive HR whose willing to afford you valued covered storage, plus access to the heavy engineering machinery is a big hurdle.
I would like to see every loco restored, however I am a realist as well and its unlikely to ever happen.
HR management need to consider situations very carefully

 

[Richard Scott]

Why put time and effort into something so tenuous? I've seen this strange dichotomy before: don't dare criticise our preservation plans, keyboard warrior/please come and volunteer your time and effort into fixing our thing and give us money as well, please.

This 9F looks like a basketcase with no obviously realistic, measurable plan in place to get it running again. My elbow grease isn't going to help if there is no money or plan

That's your choice to evaluate. Plenty of so called basket cases that many have written off that have been or are being restored. Takes one person with a can do attitude and get results and others will follow. Take it you're a follower and not a leader?

 

[Alanko]

Take it you're a follower and not a leader?

Because I don't have a few tonnes of scrap fouling up a siding on a preserved railway somewhere? This is getting slightly personal, and all because I said some nasty things about 'basket cases'?!

 

[Richard Scott]

Because I don't have a few tonnes of scrap fouling up a siding on a preserved railway somewhere? This is getting slightly personal, and all because I said some nasty things about 'basket cases'?!

No, some people are leaders and some aren't, that's all. World wouldn't function if everyone was a leader!

 

[Mag_seven]

Cant quite see what the debate is about. Who knows what plans may or may not be put together in future.
Probably will remain an interesting exibit of engineering dereliction, but i would sooner have it around than not.
Once engines have gone, they certainly cant be bought back.

Thread reopened to allow @Dougal2345 to provide an update.

 

[Dougal2345]

The following is from The Railway Magazine, March 2024:

Agreement has been reached to restore No. 92219 to main line standards at the Strathspey Railway. The locomotive has not run since withdrawal in 1965 after just five years in service, but over the next few months the boiler will be lifted and sent away for overhaul, while the frame and wheels will be restored in the shed at Aviemore, the work expected to take around five years. A new tender will also be built (the original being separated at Barry Scrapyard, South Wales, and going to No. 92214), for which a set of wheels has already been sourced. GORDON KIRKBY

 

[Iskra]

They don’t really mean mainline standards do they? I thought 9F’s were prohibited from the mainline?

Good news though

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They don’t really mean mainline standards do they? I thought 9F’s were prohibited from the mainline?

Good news though

Main line standards doesn't mean they'll actually run it on the main line.

Probably needs a separate debate as to whether the phrase means just the mechanical condition of it or if it means all the extra bits and pieces that are a requirement for main line running.

 

[Deepgreen]

They don’t really mean mainline standards do they? I thought 9F’s were prohibited from the mainline?

Good news though

Do you know why 9Fs might be prohibited?

 

[Gwr12345]

Do you know why 9Fs might be prohibited?

I think the axles are too heavy.
Flangeless centre driving wheels have derailment concerns apparently.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do you know why 9Fs might be prohibited?

It's the flangeless centre driving axle.

Modern check rails are higher than in steam days and there is a derailment risk.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's the flangeless centre driving axle.

Modern check rails are higher than in steam days and there is a derailment risk.

Thought it might be to do with the centre wheels but hadn't thought of the check rails being higher (which I know they are). Shame - I'd love to see a 9F at speed again.

 

[james_the_xv]

Thought it might be to do with the centre wheels but hadn't thought of the check rails being higher (which I know they are). Shame - I'd love to see a 9F at speed again.

Could a 9F's driving wheels be modified to cope with current check rails? Failing that would the GCR ever run a 9F at speed with their facilities on a demo run?

 

[47434]

Despite the doom mongers, I am glad that this locomotive is being saved for restoration eventually. Yes, it will be very expensive (approx £900K) - but a new big engine will cost far more (P2 approx £5M).
There are several heritage railway expanding or planning to, there are many more running now than ever before. The supply of steam locomotives is virtually fixed and big engines do attract more general customers. The Southern Locomotives Ltd are hiring out their 4 running Bulleid Pacifics and are restoring their other three!

The owner is fabulous at convincing railways there is a plan for restoration. Sadly, I predict, nothing will happen at Strathspey and eventually he will be evicted from there as he was at KSE and WR.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Flangeless centre driving wheels have derailment concerns apparently.

It's the flangeless centre driving axle.

Modern check rails are higher than in steam days and there is a derailment risk.

Apologies in advance, but in a bit of a (slight?) rant mode! Check rails by their very nature are a fixture of tight radius curves with resulting low PSR's. Yes, there will be some stations with tight curvature as such, but in general terms, main line (NR) or preserved line, where on earth is a check rail so bloody tall that the centre drivers on a 9F will risk derailing it? What on earth is the world coming to, sorry folks, but......!

 

[Amlag]

Apologies in advance, but in a bit of a (slight?) rant mode! Check rails by their very nature are a fixture of tight radius curves with resulting low PSR's. Yes, there will be some stations with tight curvature as such, but in general terms, main line (NR) or preserved line, where on earth is a check rail so bloody tall that the centre drivers on a 9F will risk derailing it? What on earth is the world coming to, sorry folks, but......!

I think it is more to do with profiles of some of the parts of modern.. since 1970’s ..diamonds etc.

 

[sng7]

As shown in the image below there are some examples of raised check rails visible in the points and crossing at the western end of Edinburgh Waverley Station. When you see them from a train they are clearly significantly taller than the rail head so you can understand why you wouldn't want flangeless wheels traversing them.

The raised check rail is visible in the diamond crossing around halfway across the image.
Picture Copyright M J Richardson and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence. From https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2067277

 

[1Q18]

Apologies in advance, but in a bit of a (slight?) rant mode! Check rails by their very nature are a fixture of tight radius curves with resulting low PSR's. Yes, there will be some stations with tight curvature as such, but in general terms, main line (NR) or preserved line, where on earth is a check rail so bloody tall that the centre drivers on a 9F will risk derailing it? What on earth is the world coming to, sorry folks, but......!

Specifically the issue (AFAIK) is the raised wing rails in the cast managanese-steel crossings commonly used in pointwork these days, rather than check rails per-se.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Specifically the issue (AFAIK) is the raised wing rails

On seeing the above image, I do know to what you refer with hindsight. A pity for any potential main line run of a standard 9 in the future, unless the route was planned very carefully.