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Standard ticket holders in first class accommodation

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Squaddie

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Today I took a London Midland train from Birmingham International to London Euston. The first class compartment was surprisingly busy and I spent part of the journey idly trying to identify the passengers who held first class tickets and those who probably didn't. (Trying not to judge people by their appearance, as I was unshaven and hadn't slept in 30 hours and probably looked like I shouldn't be there either).

The ticket inspector finally made an appearance at Hemel Hempstead. The first ticket he checked was a standard ticket, and he asked the holder to move into standard class. Two thirds of the passengers simultaneously gathered their belongings and made a similar move. The chap sitting opposite me, though, tried to argue that as he'd been sitting in first class all the way from Birmingham there was little point in moving now and that he should be allowed to stay in first class until we got to London ("I may as well stay where I am now, innit?"). A brief argument followed but eventually he did move into standard.

The ticket inspector was polite and efficient throughout, but was his action really correct? Should so many passengers have been allowed simply to move into standard accommodation at the end of their journeys, without any penalty whatsoever? If being asked to move is the worst that is likely to happen, where's the incentive to buy the correct ticket in the first place? (And how many potential first class passengers are being discouraged from travelling with LM because the first class area is likely to be full of standard ticket holders?)
 
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1E05

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London Midland train conductors are NOT authorised to give out penalty fares. They can only upgrade or pay for new tickets unless RPIs get on where it's a different ball game altogether...
 

Goatboy

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London Midland train conductors are NOT authorised to give out penalty fares. They can only upgrade or pay for new tickets unless RPIs get on where it's a different ball game altogether...

A bizarre and counterproductive situation.
 

Starmill

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I take it that LM do not allow passengers to upgrade onboard? i.e. if you sat down with a standard ticket and two minutes later some RPIs got on they would take a very dim view of this rather than just charge appropriate excesses?

I do find it odd that, given the options LM have left him/her, the guard did not ask for payment of an upgrade first, and then kick people out. That would get them, and LM more money, but of course it might make people think its OK to buy/upgrade on board. Then again, I don't see how what did happen (just telling them to get out) helps people's view of what's acceptable (because they got away with it for miles with no penalty) and it didn't get any extra money out of them!

What would the RPIs do? Penalty Fare? undiscounted Anytime 1st?
 

DaveNewcastle

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The relevant Railway Byelaw may help: Byelaw 19
19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.
Note that the offence is to remain in the part of the train which is of a 'superior' class to that on the ticket. The word 'remain' has been taken to require a person to challenge or question the passenger's presence in the wrong class of accomodation before they can be said to be 'remaining' there, and consequently, before they can be said to have committed the Offence. It follows that having been challenged or questioned, the passenger may leave and thereby avert the Offence.

I am fully aware that many companies prosecute passengers for travelling in the wrong class under the Regulation of Railways Act, and the judgement in Gillingham v Walker has supported those prosecutions, but this also requires demonstration of an intent to avoid payment of the proper (First Class) fare.

The Guard / Inspector has assistance from the Law in those two Offences, and the circumstances may determine that only one of those applies. They would also have the opportunity to simply ask people to sit in the appropriate part of the train rather than consider their enforcement options.
 
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1E05

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Ever since LM brought out the weekend first upgrade you can upgrade on the train. Only thing is I'm not sure if this situation was during the week...

Sorry, just realised it was today. Weekend first would have been available at £10 single journey or £15 return
 

yorkie

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The first ticket he checked was a standard ticket, and he asked the holder to move into standard class.
Presumably after asking for the upgrade/excess to be paid, and the passenger declining to pay?
 
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