Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

[Meerkat]

So many rather stretched examples of why flexibility is needed.
Most of them ignore that you would be able to change reservation.
The dying parent ignores the “what do people do who don’t live near a railway” issue.
All ignore the convenience and comfort of those who have been organised and got a seat.
Short distance trips have been dealt with conceptually, but the detail would have to be case specific so no point going into details.

 

[Taunton]

All ignore the convenience and comfort of those who have been organised and got a seat.

And quite rightly so. Why should those crushed in the vestibule have concern for the convenience and comfort of those who are nicely seated.

On the journey I described where I had to stand from Birmiingham to Euston when the previous service was cancelled, with vestibules stuffed and about 15 people standing down the aisle of the coach, it was noticeable that those comfortably seated (quite a few of an age who could have possibly been my grandchildren) sat there all smugly, looked studiously at their phones, and seemed quite at peace with what was going on. Not one of them offered their seat to any of the women who were standing.

And when it comes to "being organised", let's start with why could the railway not "be organised" to handle the situation that a peak time Birmingham-Euston service was missing because the incoming service had come to grief not far south of Carlisle, must have been a good couple of hours previously. When we got to Euston I noticed the return working northbound had been cancelled as well. Snide remarks about "being organised" work both ways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is 2019 and we aim for equality. I will offer a seat to someone who appears for reason of age or infirmity to need it. I will not do so on the basis of gender alone.

 

[Hadders]

So many rather stretched examples of why flexibility is needed.
Most of them ignore that you would be able to change reservation.
The dying parent ignores the “what do people do who don’t live near a railway” issue.
All ignore the convenience and comfort of those who have been organised and got a seat.
Short distance trips have been dealt with conceptually, but the detail would have to be case specific so no point going into details.

That's your perception rather than reality.

Consider a journey from Watton at Stone to Leeds. You need to take a 'local' train from Watton to Stevenage and change for an LNER service to Leeds.

The train from WAS to SVG gets cancelled meaning you can't travel on your reserved train from Stevenage. What if the next train to Leeds is fully reserved? Quite likely if the previous one has been cancelled.

What about going further afield? Say to Edinburgh necessitating changes at SVG and Doncaster? What if one of the trains is fully booked?

What happens when a person gets hit by a train, the wires come down resulting in major disruption? A train might pull into the station empty buy you can't get on it as it's fully reserved (but the passengers are no shows as they're delayed elsewhere). You might say this isn't a problem but the seats could be reserved from stations further on in the journey so we could end up with the situation of an empty train but passengers being told they can't board it as all the seats are reserved.

The more I think of compulsory reservations the more unworkable it becomes.

 

[The Ham]

So many rather stretched examples of why flexibility is needed.
Most of them ignore that you would be able to change reservation.
The dying parent ignores the “what do people do who don’t live near a railway” issue.
All ignore the convenience and comfort of those who have been organised and got a seat.
Short distance trips have been dealt with conceptually, but the detail would have to be case specific so no point going into details.

Business meeting scheduled to last an hour, so I book in a train an hour after its due to finish (knowing that they tend to overrun by 30 minutes but still leaving me with time to rebook if it goes on a bit longer). The meeting lasts 1 hour 30 minutes and at our wraps up the client says can I talk to you about a new project.

I quickly cancel my booking (whilst the others leave the room) and notice that the next three trains are already fully booked, but leave the rebooking until later as I've got a client to talk to.

Finish taking to the client and go to rebook and find that the next train with space is 90 minutes later so I've got that time to waste.

All the while this is costing the company I work for money.

I then arrive at the station for my scheduled departure and find that the train I was due to catch has been cancelled. There's no spare seats on the next 5 trains, meaning that I've now got another nearly 2 hours to fill. All the while costing my company money.

Upon return to the office, is the third time this month (totalling more than a day of lost time) that staff have been delayed getting back to the office due to missing booked trains, to find a company wide edict banning all rail travel.

That's not that far fetched, but those who are supportive of only booked travel haven't dealt with this being a problem which could sufficiently reducing the amount of business rail travel which happens.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'll say it again - this is a solution looking for a problem. There is no need for a fully booked service.

If you want a seat and/or better pricing - book early. If not, take advantage of unbooked seats, which there should continue to be in the form of coaches C/G/U on VTWC. Let revenue management do its stuff and balance bookings vs tickets. It works for the airlines - with the railway you can always get on, you may not get a seat.

We could improve the system a little by allowing the surrender and uptake of reservations 15 minutes before departure, prior to boarding and loading the reservation system on the train. Even better if those without a reservation collected a ticket when boarding which gave a seat in the unreserved coach with no need to stampede.

Also, capacity control on extremely busy travel days/meltdown days would be acceptable.

Otherwise, turn up and go works.

 

[Meerkat]

If you want a seat and/or better pricing - book early

What if you expect a seat without someone bum in your face or overlooking your work? And the ability to get refreshments and get to the toilet? Ie get what you paid for?

Disruption would be coped with by bending the rules, as it is now. You book X number of standees on a following service.....which would obviously be much easier as you know it wouldn’t already be full and standing....

 

[Adsy125]

What if you expect a seat without someone bum in your face or overlooking your work? And the ability to get refreshments and get to the toilet? Ie get what you paid for?

Then you travel at a quiet time, if you want to travel at the same time as everyone else why should other people be forced to wait for another train so you can travel in more comfort, while they’re stuck at some cold, wet station?

 

[Ken H]

Maybe we need to look at the fit of trains. make best use of the space. I travelled in the carriage on a 390 with the shop in it. What a waste of space.

 

[6Gman]

Maybe we need to look at the fit of trains. make best use of the space. I travelled in the carriage on a 390 with the shop in it. What a waste of space.

So you would remove the facility of obtaining refreshments en route?

 

[6Gman]

I'll say it again - this is a solution looking for a problem. There is no need for a fully booked service.

Otherwise, turn up and go works.

This.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe we need to look at the fit of trains. make best use of the space. I travelled in the carriage on a 390 with the shop in it. What a waste of space.

As a rough count you're likely to get an extra 20 seats by doing that, based on that giving a total of 490 seats rather than 470 on a 9 coach 390 that gains 4.2% in seating capacity.

To put that in perspective on the 9 years between 2008/09 and 2017/18 growth between London and regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1 has grown by ~70% that's a little over 6% a year.

Yes it'll help but not by very much. Likewise change one of the first class coaches to standard class and you'll gain about 30 seats. That'll gain you a total of 10.6% extra seats, which will last about 15 months before capacity is back to where it was.

 

[Ken H]

So you would remove the facility of obtaining refreshments en route?

trolley

 

[Taunton]

That's not that far fetched, but those who are supportive of only booked travel haven't dealt with this being a problem which could sufficiently reducing the amount of business rail travel which happens.

You and me both. Those whose life is mainly one of leisure and booking a month ahead, or rail management staff with passes, haven't got a clue that this is how it works for those who pay the highest fares and give the long distance railway its baseload all year. For a lot of my long distance journeys it's quite marginal whether I take the car or the train, quite why the railway would make things more difficult for us in this circumstance is a bit baffling.

 

[Ken H]

maybe this isnt a plan for franchise holders, but for open access operators in a niche market

 

[radamfi]

For most people, there is effectively no walk on service for about half the day on long distance trains from London, so whether you are allowed to stand or not is moot. A revamped fare system including a compulsory reservation system may even enable trains at peak times to become accessible to the masses.

 

[PR1Berske]

So you would remove the facility of obtaining refreshments en route?

Trolly? Vending machines? Better options on the station? Making your own food and not relying on the TOC? There are always provide options.

 

[The Ham]

Trolly? Vending machines? Better options on the station? Making your own food and not relying on the TOC? There are always provide options.

Let's assume a trolley, in a train with 300 people on board with 10% of people using it on an average 90 second order cycle (start of one order to the start of the next).

That's 45 minutes to move the full length of the train in one direction. Now it could be quicker if less people use the trolly, but given there's a fair amount of time taken to walk 200m with the need to open doors it's probably not a lot quicker than that.

As I pointed out up thread 20 extra seats on a 9 coach 390 gains you 4.2% more seats.

 

[ABB125]

This is absolute, complete, and idealist nonsense of the highest order.
"HS2...should be mostly standing..." is the most damning sentence against that damned project I have ever read. HS2 will cost something around £50-100bn. It will rip through countryside with no justification. It will destroy communities with no reason. It does not call at Birmingham without any justifiable excuse. And you suggest that passengers who pay anything from £200 to £500 a ticket should be satisfied with standing? HS2 should be luxury and the best ever experience on the railways ever dreamt of to justify its near-enough £100bn budget. Your ideal ignores all of that.

Apologies for adjusting the topic slightly, but the emboldened sentence is a tad confusing: perhaps I imagined the two HS2 stations with "Birmingham" in the name?

 

[underbank]

So you would remove the facility of obtaining refreshments en route?

When there are lots of people standing, it's difficult/impossible to get to the shop anyway, so the facility is effectively removed for all but the few sitting near to it.

 

[underbank]

It's about time we had some proper competition, i.e. two different TOCS doing the WCML, so passengers have some choice. Then one operator could provide a "booked" seating only train, and another could provide walk-up/standing tickets. Then people could decide and each service would be priced according to supply and demand.

 

[6Gman]

trolley

No thanks. Limited range; no refrigeration. Creates an obstruction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

maybe this isnt a plan for franchise holders, but for open access operators in a niche market

I must admit to being surprised no OAO has gone compulsory reservations. Probably because OAOs aren't really viable, and only work when they can do an ORCATS raid on the incumbent - which is in itself a good reason to outright ban them.

 

[6Gman]

When there are lots of people standing, it's difficult/impossible to get to the shop anyway, so the facility is effectively removed for all but the few sitting near to it.

And if there are lots of people standing (the suggestion was made to increase capacity, independent of compulsory reservations) how does the trolley get up and down the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if there are lots of people standing (the suggestion was made to increase capacity, independent of compulsory reservations) how does the trolley get up and down the train?

Therein lies a problem.

You could probably get in an extra 8 seats or so by reducing the Pendolino shop down to Voyager size, though.

 

[6Gman]

Let's assume a trolley, in a train with 300 people on board with 10% of people using it on an average 90 second order cycle (start of one order to the start of the next).

That's 45 minutes to move the full length of the train in one direction. Now it could be quicker if less people use the trolly, but given there's a fair amount of time taken to walk 200m with the need to open doors it's probably not a lot quicker than that.

As I pointed out up thread 20 extra seats on a 9 coach 390 gains you 4.2% more seats.

There are other issues with trolleys (incidentally I've known them take 20 minutes + to get through one carriage). When my wife and I travel to London we like to fetch a brew around Lichfield; any later and it's still too hot to drink when we get to Euston! I've already referred to refrigeration, and limited product range. Creates an obstruction during journey e.g. you go to the loo and you're then waiting 20 minutes to get back to your seat.

 

[PR1Berske]

Let's assume a trolley, in a train with 300 people on board with 10% of people using it on an average 90 second order cycle (start of one order to the start of the next).

That's 45 minutes to move the full length of the train in one direction. Now it could be quicker if less people use the trolly, but given there's a fair amount of time taken to walk 200m with the need to open doors it's probably not a lot quicker than that.

As I pointed out up thread 20 extra seats on a 9 coach 390 gains you 4.2% more seats.

Not one part of your response seems negative to me. Trolley services already exist and passengers deal with them.

 

[Puffing Devil]

What if you expect a seat without someone bum in your face or overlooking your work? And the ability to get refreshments and get to the toilet? Ie get what you paid for?

This simply doesn't happen now, so the system of supply and demand must be working. (Except in times of disruption or very busy travel days at a Bank Holiday).

If every train was packed with standees, I would agree we have a problem. At present, we don't.

There is already a mechanism for reducing crowding on the WCML - that's West Midlands Trains, that soak up a lot of the time rich, cash poor travellers from Virgin.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Trolly? Vending machines? Better options on the station? Making your own food and not relying on the TOC? There are always provide options.

Yes - get rid of the shop that steals space! I can see the potential need on Scotland/Newcastle to London and v.v. but not from Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

 

[6Gman]

Not one part of your response seems negative to me. Trolley services already exist and passengers deal with them.

But generally on much shorter trains e.g. 4/5-car Voyagers, 3-car 175s not 11-car Pendolinos.