Stansted coach changes - a bit of a mess

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently police already involved with this!

Is there an Airport byelaw they can enforce? As except where there is, trespass is a civil matter and so the Police are not relevant.

 

[radamfi]

I'm puzzled, how did RATP become involved - it's Terravision being (rightly or wrongly) referred to as 'cowboys'.

Terravision pay coach companies to run their services for them, like National Express do. Currently, Epsom Coaches (owned by RATP) are running their Stansted routes.

 

[Robertj21a]

Terravision pay coach companies to run their services for them, like National Express do. Currently, Epsom Coaches (owned by RATP) are running their Stansted routes.

Ah, thanks, I thought perhaps someone was getting confused with the new Metroline (ComfortDelGro) service.

Surely, Epsom are only one of the operators working for Terravision, they've had Excalibur and some of their own coaches working as well.

 

[thebackbencher]

Has anyone heard of SM Chauffeurs? They tell their customers in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysX3vrV3mms&feature=youtu.be (2'45) to look out for them in the orange car park...

And where have they been moved to? Even further from the airport than mid-stay?

 

[deltic]

Latest news from Terravision's viewpoint http://www.britalypost.com/stansted-the-battle-of-low-cost-transfers/

includes picture of its passengers waiting in the rain for a coach and comment about a coach passenger being arrested because not happy with airport staff's advice on where to go to catch a coach!

 

[Bletchleyite]

includes picture of its passengers waiting in the rain for a coach and comment about a coach passenger being arrested because not happy with airport staff's advice on where to go to catch a coach!

I would put £100 on us not having the full story there, and it involving a spectacular and possibly violent failure of the attitude test to get that far.

 

[radamfi]

Latest news from Terravision's viewpoint http://www.britalypost.com/stansted-the-battle-of-low-cost-transfers/

includes picture of its passengers waiting in the rain for a coach and comment about a coach passenger being arrested because not happy with airport staff's advice on where to go to catch a coach!

Isn't the picture of the passengers huddled in the bus shelter taken in the Mid Stay Car Park? In other words, before they were evicted from the airport.

Does anyone know where the coaches are running to now, and what kind of vehicle is being used as a shuttle bus from the Orange car park?
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Are Terravision back in the bus station? They have just posted on Twitter:

"Terravision passengers will depart from Bay 11&12.Exit the terminal and follow the directions to the Coach Station"

Bays 11 and 12 are used by Stansted Citylink.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Seems to be some kind of weird arrangement between Citylink and Terravision from what I've read?

I guess neither of them have any time for NX.

 

[ScotGG]

That is the car pick up/drop off point! cannot see the police putting up with this for very long! God knows where the coaches work from as they were slung out of Mid-stay on Weds eve at 5pm! Absolute cowboys, good riddance.

NX are cowboys. What kind of greedy company doesn't allow people onto the next coach when departing the airport after arriving in London - someone's flight arrival could be delayed and you can't predict what customs etc will be like on any given day.

All others used to say they wouldn't guarantee the next coach but would if space available. Grasping NX don't allow. Pure greed from them.

 

[radamfi]

Seems to be some kind of weird arrangement between Citylink and Terravision from what I've read?

I guess neither of them have any time for NX.

Are Terravision merely paying Citylink to carry its passengers? Citylink don't go to the same stops in London at Terravision.
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Looking at the latest Twitter messages, it appears Terravision are running coaches between Victoria and King's Cross to connect with Citylink. Maybe they are also running coaches between Stratford and King's Cross, although I can't see any messages about that. That's a hell of a diversion if they are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NX are cowboys. What kind of greedy company doesn't allow people onto the next coach when departing the airport after arriving in London - someone's flight arrival could be delayed and you can't predict what customs etc will be like on any given day.

All others used to say they wouldn't guarantee the next coach but would if space available. Grasping NX don't allow. Pure greed from them.

NX suggest you book a late coach and change to an earlier one if you arrive earlier, I believe. This is probably more because they tend to operate high load factors on less frequent services and could otherwise end up in somewhat of a pickle with stranded passengers.

Doesn't make sense on a dedicated airport service, I agree.
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That is the arrangement they had at Luton (before the shenanigans) - Terravision was just a brand (one of three I think) on the Arriva coaches.

 

[plcd1]

Full loads on the Stansted Citylink on Saturday with Westbus coaches also helpng out. The lack of a rail service to Stansted due to engineering works will be a factor but the diversion of Terravision passengers will also be driving up loadings.

All seems somewhat bizarre to see the 767 coaches full when they've been nearly empty for weeks.

 

[radamfi]

I'm confused now. This Tweet shows that people are still being taken to Bishops Stortford.

https://twitter.com/pabloua/status/688748375475380224

The train ticket is dated today. I thought that stopped now that Terravision are using Citylink?

 

[embers25]

I'm confused now. This Tweet shows that people are still being taken to Bishops Stortford.

https://twitter.com/pabloua/status/688748375475380224

The train ticket is dated today. I thought that stopped now that Terravision are using Citylink?

Latest I was told is they aren't even transferring Kings Cross to Victoria now only from Victoria you may get lucky and from Stratford all coaches go to Bishops Stortford to catch and pay for the train to Stansted. Despite this, in response to online tweets they say they are running Stratford to Stansted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Latest I was told is they aren't even transferring Kings Cross to Victoria now only from Victoria you may get lucky and from Stratford all coaches go to Bishops Stortford to catch and pay for the train to Stansted. Despite this, in response to online tweets they say they are running Stratford to Stansted.

I felt sorry for Arriva when this happened to them at Luton. I don't feel sorry for this kind of cowboy approach.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I felt sorry for Arriva when this happened to them at Luton. I don't feel sorry for this kind of cowboy approach.

Yep, same here. Arriva were shafted by Luton Airport but had the organisational ability to put in a robust enough advertised connection down to Parkway interchange. Selling tickets to Stansted but dumping people at the railway station, expecting them to make their own way the rest of the way, is disgraceful.

That said, it appears from Twitter that Stansted Airport staff are lying to passengers holding Terravision tickets, saying they don't exist any more and telling them to rebook, and that is even more disgraceful.

https://twitter.com/AnnigBelle/status/687773106572754945

http://www.britalypost.com/stansted-the-battle-of-low-cost-transfers/

I'll be honest, I hope Stansted Airport get blown out of the water at the High Court in the summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, same here. Arriva were shafted by Luton Airport but had the organisational ability to put in a robust enough advertised connection down to Parkway interchange. Selling tickets to Stansted but dumping people at the railway station, expecting them to make their own way the rest of the way, is disgraceful.

I have a word for that, it's "fraud". If that is what they are doing, they should be prosecuted for it.

OTOH, Arriva were very professional about the problems.

If they were paying for the train tickets I would be less concerned - but airport transport is so time-critical I would still look down on it.

I'll be honest, I hope Stansted Airport get blown out of the water at the High Court in the summer.

An airport is a private organisation, I don't fundamentally see why they shouldn't do what they are doing. However, I also don't see why it is accepted for them to lie about the situation. Even if they don't wish to in any way co-operate with Terravision, they could at least simply tell the passengers to contact Terravision about what they are operating because their contract with the airport has ceased, which is factual. What they are doing is also fraud (as they are gaining a pecuniary advantage via their chosen contractors).

So I think to me a good outcome would be *both* parties being prosecuted for fraud. They are as bad as each other.

 

[Tetchytyke]

An airport is a private organisation, I don't fundamentally see why they shouldn't do what they are doing

I disagree.

If an airport or a shopping centre denied some local bus companies access to a bus station, because they'd agreed an exclusive contract with a competitor, there would be outrage. I see no difference between a local bus company and a coach company (indeed, in the same situation at Luton, the coach company was the local bus company).

I see no justification- other than greed- for airports to be selling exclusive or semi-exclusive contracts to preferred coach suppliers for access to the coach station. I see no issue with them charging for access to the coach station, but that should be on an equal footing between coach companies. The issue of whether a route should operate is for DVSA, not the airport.

As far as I see it, this is about an airport abusing their market position to gain a pecuniary advantage from interfering in a downstream market.

(And FWIW I feel the same about the TOCs charging thousands for access to station taxi ranks).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree.

If an airport or a shopping centre denied some local bus companies access to a bus station, because they'd agreed an exclusive contract with a competitor, there would be outrage. I see no difference between a local bus company and a coach company (indeed, in the same situation at Luton, the coach company was the local bus company).

If I, as a private individual, or as a shopping centre owner, build a bus station with my money, I can let who I like use it, and charge what I like for it. It is no different to any other area of business; it's just the same as the fact that I can make units inside my shopping centre available to whoever I like on whatever terms I like.

If a Council or other public body built a bus station, or public money was used in its construction, or planning gain or similar was used to require a public bus station to be built, that is a totally different issue.

I see no justification- other than greed- for airports to be selling exclusive or semi-exclusive contracts to preferred coach suppliers for access to the coach station. I see no issue with them charging for access to the coach station, but that should be on an equal footing between coach companies.

Why? It is private land.

Luton Airport is a bit different here, and is another reason I supported Arriva in that case - it is owned by Luton Borough Council, though operated under contract, and as such I consider it effectively *is* public land, and LBC as a public body have no business letting a contract giving exclusivity to anyone. But that is not the case for Stansted.

As for greed - if the greedy consumer wishes to keep going with Ryanair and others driving fares down so much that they cannot or will not pay a sustainable rate for use of the airport, why should we be surprised that the airports turn to another means of making a profit?

(A solution to this might be to regulate what airports charge - so they can neither increase *or* reduce it - but that's more partial regulation on a private business that to me tends more often than not to have unintended consequences. It's like my view on the bus regulation situation - either it should be totally deregulated other than safety matters, i.e. abolish the 56 days etc, or it should be totally regulated and you operate what you're told)

(And FWIW I feel the same about the TOCs charging thousands for access to station taxi ranks).

Railway stations are an awkward one because they effectively, being owned by Network Rail, are public land, and receive public subsidy for doing what they do. Though that said, if the Council objects they can always provide a taxi rank on the road outside with no charges. Then the railway's hand would be forced.

 

[deltic]

Luton Airport is a bit different here, and is another reason I supported Arriva in that case - it is owned by Luton Borough Council, though operated under contract, and as such I consider it effectively *is* public land, and LBC as a public body have no business letting a contract giving exclusivity to anyone. But that is not the case for Stansted.

.

Stansted airport is owned by the Manchester Airports Group which is two thirds owned by the local authorities of Greater Manchester and hence under the definition above could also be regard as public land.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stansted airport is owned by the Manchester Airports Group which is two thirds owned by the local authorities of Greater Manchester and hence under the definition above could also be regard as public land.

An interesting point...as it's a foreign local authority does that put it on a similar standing to DB running trains here?

 

[Martin nx]

I felt sorry for Arriva when this happened to them at Luton. I don't feel sorry for this kind of cowboy approach.

Neither do I ! Had to work here with them operating and have seen 1st hand how it was done.

 

[deltic]

An interesting point...as it's a foreign local authority does that put it on a similar standing to DB running trains here?

Am I missing something here? Manchester is not a foreign local authority

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I missing something here? Manchester is not a foreign local authority

It's foreign to the Stansted area, so it's basically a local authority acting as a commercial organisation (for-profit) and not putting public money into the airport in and of itself.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whether a private company is private or public is irrelevant: they should not be abusing their dominant market position to distort competition.

It was competition law that meant Luton Airport had to let Arriva The Shires back into the coach station, and entirely correctly.

I don't see much of a difference here, to be quite frank. Stansted Airport are attempting to distort competition by denying some operators access to the airport, purely with the intention of increasing revenue for the airport.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stansted airport is owned by the Manchester Airports Group which is two thirds owned by the local authorities of Greater Manchester and hence under the definition above could also be regard as public land.

Just because it's owned (or part owned) by local authorities, it doesn't mean legally that it isn't privately controlled land. You don't have a right to walk into your local council depot.

 

[F Great Eastern]

From the Terravision Facebook Page:

After asking few workers at the airport, they all told me you don't run Stansted service anymore. I had to buy Nat. Express ticket which they sell at reduced price for Terravision customers. So where can I get refund for my unused return ticket?

Terravision are still being less than transparent with exactly what kind of service they are offering though.

 

[jamesontheroad]

From the Guardian (online), today:

Stansted 'bus war' as Terravision sells coach tickets despite airport ban
Firm lost right to use facilities at terminals leaving unsuspecting customers facing interchange at King’s Cross, meaning journey times doubled

Nadia Khomami @nadiakhomami
Friday 22 January 2016 13.23 GMT

Stansted airport is at the centre of a bus war after the travel company Terravision lost the right to operate out of the terminal but continued to sell coach tickets to unsuspecting passengers.

Travellers have complained of missed flights and chaotic scenes because the company failed to tell them that its services no longer run to the airport. Terravision, which has run direct, low-cost transfer services to and from several locations in central London for the past 12 years, lost the right to use Stansted’s privately run coach station after a disputed tender process last year.

It was eventually barred from the airport last week. It has launched a legal action in an effort to have its access rights restored, claiming Stansted is denying passengers choice.

In the meantime, it has quietly made an arrangement for its passengers to be carried by a new operator, Stansted Citylink. Terravision now ferries travellers from its pickup points at Victoria and Liverpool Street stations in London to Citylink’s stop near King’s Cross station, where they are made to change coaches.

Passengers travelling from Liverpool Street have said the first they knew of the arrangement was when they arrived at King’s Cross instead of Stansted airport and were told to get on another coach.

Meanwhile, Terravision ticket holders arriving at Stansted airport are instructed to use “bays 11 and 12” – the bays used by Citylink. There is no mention of the arrangement with Citylink or the transfer at King’s Cross on the Terravision website, which claims that a journey between Stansted and Liverpool Street would take 55 minutes. In fact, with the King’s Cross diversion, journey times are up to double that.

Terravision, founded by the Italian businessman Fabio Petroni, believes the tender process was flawed. It has launched legal action against Stansted, accusing it of abusing its dominant position under the 1998 Competition Act, and restricting competition to the detriment of consumers. The company has also lodged complaints with the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) and the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

Stansted denies the claims and has advised customers to book direct with the three operators who won the contract – National Express, Stansted Citylink (operated by Metroline) and Airport Bus Express (operated by Autostradale).

 

[F Great Eastern]

This afternoon I was at Stansted. I've never seen anything so crazy in all my life. Citylink have shipped in coaches and drivers in from their Galway operation in Ireland and have more than doubled frequency to take all of the Terravision refugees.

However there appears to be a free for all on who gets on coaches, they do not appear to be giving priority to people who are booked on a particular coach, one gentleman was very angry at that this afternoon and was told that it's first come first served in the queue although there were a couple of hundred people in a queue at any one time.

Terravision continue to tell people their services are running and their staff are not allowed to mention the word "Citylink" although we've already guessed that by now. Citylink are now trying to upsell to Terravision customers as well by giving them flyers as they board the coach and Terravision are telling passengers to only book with them direct.

Whilst this is going on Autostrade are making many announcements over the tannoy in the coach station in Italian, I presume to pick up some of the lapsed terravision passengers, Stansted are putting huge posters up everywhere saying there are only three bus operators, and National Express are using a lot of coaches in plain white for whatever reason.

Someone really needs to sort this out because it's like a free for all out there and believe me, the customers certainly are not the ones winning.

 

[deltic]

Lot of angry punters on Twitter complaining about no-show coaches and missed flights in relation to Terravision