• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Start-up 'European Sleeper' announces Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin - Prague

Status
Not open for further replies.

popeter45

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
1,099
Location
london
this is gonna be great for trips to Berlin
also i am supprised no operator outside china has even considered trying multible units as sleepers and instead staying with coaches and a loco
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,567
this is gonna be great for trips to Berlin
also i am supprised no operator outside china has even considered trying multible units as sleepers and instead staying with coaches and a loco
Japan has
 

Hey 3

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2020
Messages
329
Location
Manchester, UK
One thing we can say about the "new" network of sleepers(or TEE 2.0), is that the Brussels sleeper hub is taking shape.
 

JonasB

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2016
Messages
908
Location
Sweden
It may well be my UK bias but I do wonder if Brussels was chosen with at least one eye on the UK (espically the bits near London) market via eurostar.

Being the de facto EU capital Brussels probably attract quite a few passengers by itself. But connections to London and Paris will probably attract passengers as well. Through tickets would be great…

also i am supprised no operator outside china has even considered trying multible units as sleepers and instead staying with coaches and a loco

Probably due to the cost of dedicated EMUs. But, a 320 km/h sleeper EMU would be great and open a lot of possible routes like Paris-Rome, Madrid-Amsterdam or Berlin-Barcelona. But from what I've heard, many high speed lines are closed for maintenance during the night, which would be a problem.
 
Last edited:

popeter45

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
1,099
Location
london
Probably due to the cost of dedicated EMUs. But, a 320 km/h sleeper EMU would be great and open a lot of possible routes like Paris-Rome, Madrid-Amsterdam or Berlin-Barcelona. But from what I've heard, many high speed lines are closed for maintenance during the night, which would be a problem.
320km/h sleepers could work if they took the HS lines in the evening/morning then took the slow lines at night
an example could be brussles to Barcalona taking LGV nord and sud-est to arrive at lyon as the HS lines close at midnight then take slow lines before taking the HS line to Barcalona at 6am when the HS lines reopen
 

Hey 3

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2020
Messages
329
Location
Manchester, UK
320km/h sleepers could work if they took the HS lines in the evening/morning then took the slow lines at night
an example could be brussles to Barcalona taking LGV nord and sud-est to arrive at lyon as the HS lines close at midnight then take slow lines before taking the HS line to Barcalona at 6am when the HS lines reopen
320km/h(or 200 mph) sleepers is only going to work when:
It is a long distance sleeper(to make sure the train does not get the destination quick)
And finally:
The ride is comfortable(no waking up because of high speeds).
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,313
Location
North East Cheshire
Having watched the Dutch Language 'European Sleeper' video I note the stock shown, and particularly the sleepers, is not in the first flush of youth.

Italian couchettes probably dating from the late 70's or at best early 80's, accompanied by the blue and stainless steel liveried former 'P' type sleeping cars which date from the mid 1950's, originally with 20 single compartments in a duplex layout (a concept taken further in the 60's with the T2 cars with upper two berth cabins (which were my own favourite compartments of that era) and lower cabins convertible for single or double use). These were internally re-configured around 1990 to provide 10 compartments with the conventional offering of use as single, double or three berth at which time I believe they were used as part of the TEN Pool by the Dutch, Belgian and Austrian railways.

I'd guess this is a low budget way of procuring stock to start operations and whilst no doubt some attention will be given to this ageing stock before it enters service it will be interesting to learn in the months and years to come whether some more modern stock may come into the picture and also whether they will look to introduce further routes.
 

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,079
Location
London
They look like ex-Austrian examples in some cases. The AB30s were use there until the creation of Nightjet meant they could be replaced with ex-CNL carriages.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,636
Location
Airedale
Having watched the Dutch Language 'European Sleeper' video I note the stock shown, and particularly the sleepers, is not in the first flush of youth.

Italian couchettes probably dating from the late 70's or at best early 80's, accompanied by the blue and stainless steel liveried former 'P' type sleeping cars which date from the mid 1950's, .....
Any chance of a link?
Regiojet's "sleepers" are essentially couchettes with lower occupancy and propper bedding, but they are fairly modern a/c stock and not that different from any other operator's couchettes.
The AB30/33 sleepers will presumably provide a slightly better ambience and (IIRC) a couple of ensuite compartments. As StephenHunter says, they were until quite recently in regular service; indeed, the very nice MU sleepers withdrawn at the same time are also being refurbished, I think for a different operator. Remember that sleepers don't get the intensive use of day stock, so last considerably longer provided they comply with legislation.
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,313
Location
North East Cheshire

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,636
Location
Airedale
Copied from post 1
Link to a video interview, in Dutch, conducted in some of the second hand rolling stock that the company will use: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/economie/t...n-naar-praag-we-zijn-de-cowboys-van-het-spoor

It is reasonable to hope they would be looking at en suite as an enhancement for the sleepers in line with the expectations of the higher end of the potential market.
Thanks, I'd missed that and only looked on their website.

There aren't many spare sleepers with ensuite facilities, though, and I think they are all spoke for.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
320km/h(or 200 mph) sleepers is only going to work when:
It is a long distance sleeper(to make sure the train does not get the destination quick)
And finally:
The ride is comfortable(no waking up because of high speeds).

And if you can find high speed lines that don't close overnight for maintenance.
 

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,079
Location
London
Brussels Central is of course not the 'main station' in Brussels, which is Zuid/Midi. Midi being an old French word for "South"...

Any chance of finding the planned Berlin calls?
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,313
Location
North East Cheshire
There aren't many spare sleepers with ensuite facilities, though, and I think they are all spoke for.
Agree, but an ambitious operator could look at fitting them. Would be significant work and presumably require increased water tank capacity for showers. Even a multi user shower compartment could be a winner, DB had these in many cars from the 1970s.

Interesting to note from above it will run to/from Oostende, perhaps for the tourist market to Bruges and Ghent, or maybe stabling and servicing is more cost effective there. .
 

popeter45

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
1,099
Location
london

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Oostende seems a bit wierd to terminate at?
if plan was to go beyond brussles surely Lille-Flanders would make more sence?

Then there'd be an extra requirement to meet French rules/signalling etc. Plus all the main connections at Lille (London/Paris) you can get at Brussels anyway.

Presumably Oostende makes sense if there's a suitable siding facility. Plus it will presumably serve Bruges on the way, for the tourist market.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,567
Copied from post 1
Link to a video interview, in Dutch, conducted in some of the second hand rolling stock that the company will use: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/economie/t...n-naar-praag-we-zijn-de-cowboys-van-het-spoor

It is reasonable to hope they would be looking at en suite as an enhancement for the sleepers in line with the expectations of the higher end of the potential market.
I recognise the first chap in that video, I have spoken to him briefly!

He was one of the organisers of this



And which I travelled on in 2019 - it was great! I hope to do it again some time.

They rented the stock from https://www.euro-express-sonderzuege.de/ I think who seem to hire out old style carriages for one-offs and seasonal trains.

He also has this site, which is about the various night trains that used to run from the Netherlands (obviously in the past they would have picked up a fair bit of trade from Brits coming via cross channel ferry which would be the historical reason for Oostende to be significant).




I'm a big fan of the traditional style Euro couchette carriages, with the big windows you can slide down half way. Did many many journeys on those in younger days. Obviously I am not the target commercial customer though.
 
Last edited:

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,313
Location
North East Cheshire
They rented the stock from https://www.euro-express-sonderzuege.de/ I think who seem to hire out old style carriages for one-offs and seasonal trains.
Livery wise these look like the couchette cars in the European Sleeper video, the livery looked similar to FS livery of the 80's/90/s but in fact it seems to actually be the livery of 'Euro-Express-Sonderzeuge.de' so the heritage may not be Italian, and if the same guy is involved he is very likely to use the same source. They also have 30 berth sleeping cars on their books!
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
5,904
London to anywhere is just going to be faff though. Brussels is obviously a great place to change, but as The UK isn't in Schengen, and not likely to ever be, then sadly it won't be feasible to run a London to other capital cities beyond Brussels and Amsterdam (the later already problematic one way).

Where you have trains across the EU, they tend to stop at several placed en route. Budapest, Bratislava, Warsaw for instance.

Great shame London isn't better connected, as the infrastructure is in place, but I fear this is another extension of the self imposed isolationism that has come me about through Brexit.
I don't follow your logic at all. Once you clear the Schengen border you are free to travel anywhere in the zone. That's the whole point of it.

It's travel TO London that is the real problem, and has more to do with Government policy demanding high levels of security.
Yes, we're not going to see sleepers out of St Pancras, but the simple change in Brussels isn't too much of a problem.
Not sure wha5 you last paragraph refers too.
Agreed. My other half lives in UK and is a foreign non-EU national. Once she has a Schengen visa, issued by the country of entry, she can travel anywhere in the zone.

The "border" issues coming in and out of the UK, as far as I can see, are really more about security concerns relating to the tunnel, than they are about anything else. Doing an immigrations/customs check on board a train doesn't really need to be such a big deal; it's done in lots of places and has been for decades, as others have pointed out.
It's also to do with the rules around seeking asylum.
 
Last edited:

LSWR Cavalier

Established Member
Joined
23 Aug 2020
Messages
1,565
Location
Leafy Suburbia
320 kmh? I thought one reason overnight trains go slowly was to make sleeping a bit easier. Using high-speed lines at 120 kmh might be best, direct and a smoother ride.

I used a couple of night trains, did not sleep well.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
320 kmh? I thought one reason overnight trains go slowly was to make sleeping a bit easier. Using high-speed lines at 120 kmh might be best, direct and a smoother ride.

No, you'll get tipped out of bed by the over-canting on curves. Those are designed for passenger comfort to be taken at line speed, not substantially below it.
 

Doppelganger

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2011
Messages
398
I don't follow your logic at all. Once you clear the Schengen border you are free to travel anywhere in the zone. That's the whole point of it.
One way it is straight forward. I was referring more in coming back to London. Where is the passport and customs control?

At Brussels? The origin station? Somewhere en route?

Do you turf everyone of the train to do this? What if your final destination isn't London?

The UK being out of Schengen just makes the whole so messy.

Budapest to Berlin for instance goes through Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Poland on its way
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
One way it is straight forward. I was referring more in coming back to London. Where is the passport and customs control?

At Brussels? The origin station? Somewhere en route?

Do you turf everyone of the train to do this? What if your final destination isn't London?

The UK being out of Schengen just makes the whole so messy.

Budapest to Berlin for instance goes through Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Poland on its way
Hungary, Germany, Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Poland are all part of the EU and as such are signed up to the Schengen agreement which means that for a Hungarian wishing to travel to Berlin using your example via Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Poland, the train is to all concerned a internal EU service as it is travelling internally even though it crosses international borders. This means that the Hungarian can simply walk up and board the service in Budapest and walk off the train when it gets to Berlin without having to go though passport control.

The fact that the UK has not signed up to the agreement doesn't mean that it is messy using your own description, it just means that if you use Eurostar you clear passport control in Brussels and walk off the train when you get to London or if you fly with say Brussels Airlines you clear passport control in Brussels and do the same upon arrival in London.

For example when I flew Edinburgh to Vienna via Amsterdam last year, I had to clear security at Edinburgh then once I landed at Amsterdam I had to go though passport control as I was entering the EU at that point before I had to go though security and once I landed in Vienna, it was a simple case of walking off the aircraft and onto S Bahn without having to go though passport control again because the flight from Amsterdam to Vienna was classed as a internal EU flight meaning no passport checks were needed.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
5,904
One way it is straight forward. I was referring more in coming back to London. Where is the passport and customs control?

At Brussels? The origin station? Somewhere en route?

Do you turf everyone of the train to do this? What if your final destination isn't London?

The UK being out of Schengen just makes the whole so messy.

Budapest to Berlin for instance goes through Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Poland on its way
The UK has never been in Schengen and would not have joined had it stayed in the EU. There are extant juxtaposed UK border controls (i.e. passport) at Brussels. Any customs activity would be at St Pancras.
 

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,079
Location
London
There are facilities for passport control at St Pancras too; and you could make sure that people were pre-registered on the train. In the days of the Night Ferry, the sleeper passengers did their checks at Victoria.
 

Austriantrain

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2018
Messages
1,267
There are facilities for passport control at St Pancras too; and you could make sure that people were pre-registered on the train. In the days of the Night Ferry, the sleeper passengers did their checks at Victoria.

Yes, it would be a lot easier if the UK accepted border controls on arrival in St. Pancras, just as they do in Heathrow. Every train through the Tunnel will likely remain reservation-only with passengers registered and a passenger manifest can be checked before the trains departure from its last stop on the continent.

You would still need security controls when boarding such trains on the continent, but this should be easier to organize and much cheaper for the train operator than having to pay towards outstationed UK border control personnel, as E* currently have to do.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Oostende seems a bit wierd to terminate at?
if plan was to go beyond brussles surely Lille-Flanders would make more sence?
Ostende station is oversize. It was renovated 2012 and then ferries stopped in 2013 and Thalys withdrew 2015. I expect it has cheap space.

If the new service takes bicycles that could be interesting because Ostende is only 43 miles to Dunkerque port for Dover. A comfortable day's cycling for most people now that Dunkerque finished their E-W cycle superhighway, except for the last little bit into the port.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top