State of GWR’s IETs

[Bletchleyite]

Years ago a friend was on an ECML express and experienced similar. Went and found the guard who also looked concerned. Stopped the train at the next station and found a "not to go" placard...

Some parts of the ECML are terrible. I've had a ride in a Mk4 bad enough that I was starting to think about pulling the handle. Don't recall 80x being anywhere near as bad, though the Lumo one I tried did have a bit of CAF esque bogie hunting and banging.

To be fair the ride is also rather poor on the GWML.

 

[Master29]

Err.... that is what GW management of the day wanted..... giving the ability for full-service dining on some trains but chopping the buffets and offering a minimal at-seat service of largely non-perishable items.

It's not what most passengers wanted though. The daft thought processes going into the exclusion of a buffet that takes up only 16 seats whilst including a kitchen that's half a carriage and is virtually never used. What full service dining exactly? A pathetic 5 trains a day run with a pretty good Pullman service to be fair.

 

[Mikey C]

Some parts of the ECML are terrible. I've had a ride in a Mk4 bad enough that I was starting to think about pulling the handle. Don't recall 80x being anywhere near as bad, though the Lumo one I tried did have a bit of CAF esque bogie hunting and banging.

To be fair the ride is also rather poor on the GWML.

I recall a very jolty ride on a 387 a year ago on the ECML

 

[Clarence Yard]

It's not what most passengers wanted though. The daft thought processes going into the exclusion of a buffet that takes up only 16 seats whilst including a kitchen that's half a carriage and is virtually never used. What full service dining exactly? A pathetic 5 trains a day run with a pretty good Pullman service to be fair.

It was actually the person we mentioned earlier at the DfT who pushed his view on catering through. The units were ordered at a time when the DfT thought it should make all the decisions on rolling stock and the TOC was just there to operate them, in what configuration and on whatever timetable the DfT had previously decided.

 

[superalbs]

I wander that. Seems bizarre that they have failed so early in life, is the same type of seat not used on any other trains in the world??

In Germany for commuter trains with a modified base.

The Netherlands uses them on commuter trains too, with the same spec as the UK ones.

They are a basic commuter train seat.

 

[Irascible]

Some parts of the ECML are terrible. I've had a ride in a Mk4 bad enough that I was starting to think about pulling the handle. Don't recall 80x being anywhere near as bad, though the Lumo one I tried did have a bit of CAF esque bogie hunting and banging.

To be fair the ride is also rather poor on the GWML.

The B&H is a bit of a storm-at-sea experience no matter what you're in. The 800s hae problems with wheel profile degradation ( detailed in the thread on the cracking - indeed a major contributary factor iirc ) so I guess the recent complaint unit was one that needs a trip to the lathe/wheel swap imminently.

I seem to remember my last trip up to Leeds ( to be fair, in GNER days ) in a Mk4 was notably smooth! maybe I was just trained to expect worse.

 

[stuu]

Have you spoke to the Train manager about it? Seeing as 802103 is currently running on time, doesn’t seem anyone else has if it really is that bad.

There is a bit around Eailing that is bad in the 387’s but seemed fine in an 800 last week

No, firstly the train was full and standing until Newbury, and once past Reading it didn't happen again anything like so badly. Presumably a combination of track layout, speed and wheel wear?

 

[150249]

I was on 800020 yesterday and the padding on the seats has completely worn out. I could feel the frame of the seat through the padding

 

[Dan G]

It was actually the person we mentioned earlier at the DfT who pushed his view on catering through. The units were ordered at a time when the DfT thought it should make all the decisions on rolling stock and the TOC was just there to operate them, in what configuration and on whatever timetable the DfT had previously decided.

Isn't that how GBR is/was supposed to operate?

 

[Energy]

Isn't that how GBR is/was supposed to operate?

GBR is supposed to have people experienced in running a railway. The DfT civil servants were not, which is GWR originally got an unworkable timetable.

As for seats I don't believe it was done knowing that they would be uncomfortable and collapse after a few years, I suspect an inexperienced civil servant saw they could save some money and put it through. They should have listened to Hitachi's protests though.

 

[mikeb42]

No, firstly the train was full and standing until Newbury, and once past Reading it didn't happen again anything like so badly. Presumably a combination of track layout, speed and wheel wear?

Travelling from Swindon and stations west to Paddington and back hundreds of times on IETs I've become inured to what I'd otherwise regard as pretty alarming symptoms.

Prolonged vigorous hunting, loud bangs heard and felt, alarming clonks presumably from something hitting end-stops, lurching and shuddering and on occasions something that almost warrants the description of violent shaking... All of these are part of the IET experience. I tend to sit in the front coach westbound. Sat at the front of it in the most swingy-oscillatory location of all is the highly paid professional in charge of the thing, who must feel every lurch, bang and shudder. As they're happy to keep going at 124.x mph while experiencing all this it's reasonable to assume it's considered normal.

There have been odd occasions where I've started to wonder if I should be looking for the handle only to remember the driver is just up there so it must be ok.

All too often even when the ride isn't particularly alarming, the trim sounds like it's shaking itself to pieces. In particular the metal roof panelling and bits of partitions often clatter for much of the journey. The whole thing is like a car with overly jittery suspension and poor build quality.

The old HSTs had a ride along the same route which at times could best be described as a bit nautical, plus the infernal squeaking at the carriage ends. However, the overall experience was a lot more civilised even if they were very clapped out latterly.

 

[Dan G]

Again, I only use IETs occasionally within Devon, but these comments are unrecognisable to me.

Maybe I'm just lucky every single time that I catch a train that I get in a carriage that's clean, quiet, and smooth riding.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Again, I only use IETs occasionally within Devon, but these comments are unrecognisable to me.

Maybe I'm just lucky every single time that I catch a train that I get in a carriage that's clean, quiet, and smooth riding.

I can confirm that the issues around carpets and toilets are a regular feature on south Wales bound IETs. I've not experienced the seat degradation yet but it is widely reported.

It really is appalling that we've ended up with these shoddy trains as a replacement to the HST. And without a buffet which to me is a big downgrade.

I can't see any improvement either now that GWR are on a management contract, this would have to be government mandated which seems unlikely.

I'm very much looking forward to the Grand Union service starting 18 months.

 

[mangyiscute]

I must say I have ridden the IETs tonnes of times including the short London to Reading but also longer journeys such as 4 hours from Redruth to Reading, and I have very few complaints about these trains - i find the seats comfortable (i know thats an unpopular opinion, but having tried older trains I find the padding is often in odd places and can cause me to have to sit in a more odd position, whereas with these seats as long as you sit back you get decent lumbar support, and i've never had an issue with not enough padding) and the carriages are light and spacious, theres lots of space and plenty of seats. The only real complaint I have is the issue with the touch screen on a device becoming very unresponsive when plugged in charging.

People seem to be wildly exaggerating the issues - yes there is perhaps a little bit of issue with the ride but nothing too egregious, its makes you feel like you're riding a super fast train which is very exciting. And the feeling of an IET pulling out of a station under wires, accelerating far faster than the diesel trains ever did is something I will always savour - these trains are something of beauty and some people need to learn to let go of the past

 

[Clarence Yard]

GBR is supposed to have people experienced in running a railway. The DfT civil servants were not, which is GWR originally got an unworkable timetable.

As for seats I don't believe it was done knowing that they would be uncomfortable and collapse after a few years, I suspect an inexperienced civil servant saw they could save some money and put it through. They should have listened to Hitachi's protests though.

Actually he was a railwayman before he went to the SRA, then DfT but he had very fixed views. His view on the GWR timetable was that the IEP services would have primacy and everything else would have to be timed around them!

When the late Roger Watkins and I had to sort out the introduction and timetable, I made one condition - he was going to be nowhere near it anymore. By then his star was waning (as was his health) and he was employed more on Northern/TPE proposals.

In reply to the comment made by another poster about no changes to the fleet now that GWR was on NRC, it makes no difference - you could never modify the IET fleet without DfT say so.

 

[Energy]

Actually he was a railwayman before he went to the SRA, then DfT but he had very fixed views.

Fair enough. I was more commenting on the tendency to have "general purpose" civil servants who get moved around but therefore lack expertise in the industry.

While his timetable was overly ambitious (to put it politely) I doubt we can blame him for the seats. They sound like a change much further into the programme when he would have been working on Northern/TPE proposals, though I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable .

In reply to the comment made by another poster about no changes to the fleet now that GWR was on NRC, it makes no difference - you could never modify the IET fleet without DfT say so.

At least GWR management are aware of the issues. Does the Hitachi overall contract include refurbishments or will that be additional expense from the DfT?

 

[superalbs]

Fair enough. I was more commenting on the tendency to have "general purpose" civil servants who get moved around but therefore lack expertise in the industry.

While his timetable was overly ambitious (to put it politely) I doubt we can blame him for the seats. They sound like a change much further into the programme when he would have been working on Northern/TPE proposals, though I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable .

At least GWR management are aware of the issues. Does the Hitachi overall contract include refurbishments or will that be additional expense from the DfT?

To be honest, I think the seats go way back, at least to 2014. This article has a picture of them...

Hitachi highlights innovative IEP interior design

Andy Rogers, IEP project manager at Hitachi Rail Europe, discusses the latest interior designs of the Super Express Trains which will run on the Great Western Main Line and East Coast Main Line as par

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

I must say I have ridden the IETs tonnes of times including the short London to Reading but also longer journeys such as 4 hours from Redruth to Reading, and I have very few complaints about these trains - i find the seats comfortable (i know thats an unpopular opinion, but having tried older trains I find the padding is often in odd places and can cause me to have to sit in a more odd position, whereas with these seats as long as you sit back you get decent lumbar support, and i've never had an issue with not enough padding) and the carriages are light and spacious, theres lots of space and plenty of seats. The only real complaint I have is the issue with the touch screen on a device becoming very unresponsive when plugged in charging.

People seem to be wildly exaggerating the issues - yes there is perhaps a little bit of issue with the ride but nothing too egregious, its makes you feel like you're riding a super fast train which is very exciting. And the feeling of an IET pulling out of a station under wires, accelerating far faster than the diesel trains ever did is something I will always savour - these trains are something of beauty and some people need to learn to let go of the past

I never understand this comment about 'letting go of the past'.

You only need to look at recently introduced long-distance trains in literally any other country to see that we are getting a rotten deal, with the most spartan, austere, and downright nasty trains around.

 

[mangyiscute]

I never understand this comment about 'letting go of the past'.

You only need to look at recently introduced long-distance trains in literally any other country to see that we are getting a rotten deal, with the most spartan, austere, and downright nasty trains around.

It's because the main comparison that people make are against the older trains - the IETs are an upgrade on the older trains in a lot of ways - better acceleration, more space, more seats, automated doors, more plugs, better wifi, cleaner, more tables etc. I love an HST as much as anyone, but I'm not going to complain about them being replaced by trains which are functionally way better.

And I know the comparison isn't between them, but spending a month or two having to take chiltern turbos to and from london (i am in oxford currently) made me realise just how good the iets are compared to something like that.

 

[Irascible]

From the SW the comparison is with an existing SWR 159, and provding the things actually run all the IET wins on is speed as far as I'm concerned, and I'll take an extra hoiur and arrive feeling good thanks. I've said repeatedly I wasn't a major HST fan, but apparently thinking a new thing is not a radical leap forwards is rose tinted nostalgia & I need an attitude adjustment. ( My actual response would get me thrown off, so just imagine something a bit stronger ).

These things *objectively* have major problems they should not have quite on top of any more arguable complaints.

 

[D1537]

I use the LNER IETs on a regular basis and have never had any issues with the seats. Indeed, after seeing this thread I had a wander up and down two different IETs (800108 and 801228 to be precise) this week during my journey and didn't see any issues with them at all. So why are GWR's so poor?

 

[150249]

I was on 801224 recently and was reasonably impressed

 

[irish_rail]

It's because the main comparison that people make are against the older trains - the IETs are an upgrade on the older trains in a lot of ways - better acceleration, more space, more seats, automated doors, more plugs, better wifi, cleaner, more tables etc. I love an HST as much as anyone, but I'm not going to complain about them being replaced by trains which are functionally way better.

And I know the comparison isn't between them, but spending a month or two having to take chiltern turbos to and from london (i am in oxford currently) made me realise just how good the iets are compared to something like that.

Sorry this needs calling out. Just because you are in a minority who are no doubt the exact size and shape for the IET seat specification , the majority of the British public are not and find the seats now Extremely bad, especially since the seat bases have started to collapse. I suspect you must have a very well endowed rear if you are comfortable sitting on the metal seat base, and I also suspect you must be about 5"8 too. Just because the seat suits you, for the vast majority of people they have become unbelievably uncomfortable. I do however agree with you that the IETs are pretty good in most other respects and are not as bad as some make out. Indeed I personally have never noticed the poor ride as being any worse than what they replaced.

 

[YourMum666]

The two biggest complaints about the IET are the most relatively simple thing to solve - seats and suspension

 

[Mzzzs]

The two biggest complaints about the IET are the most relatively simple thing to solve - seats and suspension

Luggage racks in the middle of the carriages would be nice too.

 

[MotCO]

How's the crack-fixing programme going?

Yes, is there any news on this? (I thught there was a separate thread for this, but could not find it.)

 

[fgwrich]

Yes, is there any news on this? (I thught there was a separate thread for this, but could not find it.)

Very very slowly. Only 1 GW unit released so far (802003). I believe 2 LNER units completed - the advantage to the LNER unit seemingly involves less repainting.

 

[mangyiscute]

Very very slowly. Only 1 GW unit released so far (802003). I believe 2 LNER units completed - the advantage to the LNER unit seemingly involves less repainting.

Wait so is 802003 returning to service anytime soon? It's the last one I have to spot but has been at Eastleigh for around a year

 

[MotCO]

Very very slowly. Only 1 GW unit released so far (802003). I believe 2 LNER units completed - the advantage to the LNER unit seemingly involves less repainting.

I assume that this is a permanent fix rather than the previous patching.

 

[philthetube]

Glad it's not just me who has noticed this. Every time I see one they seem to be slightly dirtier. Does seem to suggest the current cleaning procedures are insufficient.

The attached picture shows the state of one I was on a few weeks ago. It was taken with the camera right up against the inside of one of the windows. The view is supposed to be of Gloucester station!

I know money is tight but surely a wipe over with a damp cloth wouldn't hurt - I've seen windows with advertising stuck over them that are easier to look out of than this! I wonder if it has anything to do with the paintwork issues @fgwrich mentions (not washing them thoroughly for fear of damaging the exterior finish further?)
View attachment 133313

(Photo taken on board a train, looking out. The outline of a station platform and canopy are just about visible, but the view is heavily obscured by a layer of mud and grime covering the window).

Once again I was on a GWR 802 yesterday and the dirt was so ingrained on the window you could hardly see out - don't they use carriage washers anymore?

Think this is a bit harsh on them, the pic looks like one trip through Dawlish at high tide, everything on that window is sand.

 

[railman3031]

The state some of the units are in when they arrive at Paddington is atrocious. Rubbish all over the place. Anyone else noticed the same?