State of Southern (GTR)

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, and some of the 387s ended up on the East Coastway, as they obviously weren't required for the Gatwick Expresses

which is waste as there all 2+2

 

[Agent_Squash]

which is waste as there all 2+2

Why are they a waste as 2+2? It’s standard for most of the railway…

 

[Sm5]

Much of what you say is true, but this really isn't.

Brighton to London is priced very similarly to other equivalent journeys into London - ranging from 14p per mile for a Super Off-Peak Day Return to 47p for an Anytime Day Return, and 19p for an annual season ticket used 5 days a week.

That compares to 24p, 49p and 23p respectively for Basingstoke; 17p, 45p and 25p for Milton Keynes; and 28p, 69p and 23p for Didcot - as with Brighton, these are all journeys of around 50 miles into London.

These prices are still higher than Petrol cost of a car, and if it has more than one occupant the economics of railway usage are out of the window.

 

[Watershed]

These prices are still higher than Petrol cost of a car, and if it has more than one occupant the economics of railway usage are out of the window.

Including parking and/or Congestion Charge in London? I doubt it. Certainly not for the Super Off-Peak Day tickets.

Those are undiscounted adult fares; two people travelling together on a Network Card, Two Together Railcard or Gold Card discounted ticket would pay just 1/3 more.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why are they a waste as 2+2? It’s standard for most of the railway…

not on a 133 new 720's its not

 

[Agent_Squash]

not on a 133 new 720's its not

2+2 is the standard configuration on most rolling stock across the country - the loading gauge can barely fit 3+2 let alone comfortably - as seen on the 720s

 

[AzureOtsu]

I think a point I made which was overlooked was a reflection on the southern brand from a passengers perspective, not an enthusiasts.

To most, the idea of southern not having a direct service from Brighton to Victoria just seems like it hurts the southern brand even more than it already is right now with the service cuts and overcrowding due to short trains.

I understand work is carrying out at gatwick Airport which is preventing normal service patterns from operating.

Thameslink might be doing well and most find it acceptable to travel on 700s from brighton to London but southern is the dominant TOC for the South Coast and i feel its brand is not looking good from the passengers perspective at this point in time.

At the moment, regular commuters from Brighton to Victoria will have to change trains, adding to journey time and they risk not getting a seat as the trains are coming from littlehampton/eastbourne containing passengers from those destinations. The only 2 options for brighton-victoria commuters are this, or pay the premium for the GEX. This is not a good operational move and is done to the detriment of the customer.

I am not sure if brighton-victoria southern season ticket holders are valid on GEX, but it would make no sense not to allow this.

The wounds are still fresh in many eyes from the May 2018 timetable debacle, changes that harmed the brand for many commuters in the southern sector, so I would very much imagine that the changes and cutbacks that have been going on at the moment are not being seen well even from a post covid railway perspective.

 

[JonathanH]

At the moment, regular commuters from Brighton to Victoria will have to change trains

They don't have to change trains to get from Brighton to Victoria.

I am not sure if brighton-victoria southern season ticket holders are valid on GEX, but it would make no sense not to allow this.

There aren't "Southern only" or "Not Gatwick Express" season tickets from Brighton to London any more and haven't been for some time. There remain "Thameslink only" season tickets and season tickets issued to "London Thameslink" but those don't result in a differential between travel on Southern and Gatwick Express branded services.

The peak service from Brighton to Victoria has been entirely run as Gatwick Express for many years now, not just since the Gatwick works or indeed May 2018 (although it is half hourly and not quarter hourly at present).

 

[paul1609]

Erm, no it isn't. The 2 platforms being out at Gatwick affects the other 2tph from Victoria - Gatwick being able to run.

You could run another 2tph into Brighton, but you would then have to go back to having the Littlehampton/Eastbourne's split/join at Haywards Heath again.

Err I think it actually is. The splitting/joining at Haywards Heath eats up line capacity and you can only get maximum capacity if the splitting train is overtaken by a train not stopping at Haywards Heath. With the rebuild at Gatwick it's not possible for that to happen.

I think a point I made which was overlooked was a reflection on the southern brand from a passengers perspective, not an enthusiasts.

To most, the idea of southern not having a direct service from Brighton to Victoria just seems like it hurts the southern brand even more than it already is right now with the service cuts and overcrowding due to short trains.

I understand work is carrying out at gatwick Airport which is preventing normal service patterns from operating.

Thameslink might be doing well and most find it acceptable to travel on 700s from brighton to London but southern is the dominant TOC for the South Coast and i feel its brand is not looking good from the passengers perspective at this point in time.

At the moment, regular commuters from Brighton to Victoria will have to change trains, adding to journey time and they risk not getting a seat as the trains are coming from littlehampton/eastbourne containing passengers from those destinations. The only 2 options for brighton-victoria commuters are this, or pay the premium for the GEX. This is not a good operational move and is done to the detriment of the customer.

I am not sure if brighton-victoria southern season ticket holders are valid on GEX, but it would make no sense not to allow this.

The wounds are still fresh in many eyes from the May 2018 timetable debacle, changes that harmed the brand for many commuters in the southern sector, so I would very much imagine that the changes and cutbacks that have been going on at the moment are not being seen well even from a post covid railway perspective.

Season Tickets from stations South of Balcombe and/or Christ's Hospital to London Terminals or Zones 1 to 6 have always been any permitted and available on GatEX except the Thameslink only ones and the reduced price Southern Only one specifically to London Victoria.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At the moment, regular commuters from Brighton to Victoria will have to change trains, adding to journey time and they risk not getting a seat as the trains are coming from littlehampton/eastbourne containing passengers from those destinations. The only 2 options for brighton-victoria commuters are this, or pay the premium for the GEX. This is not a good operational move and is done to the detriment of the customer.

I am not sure if brighton-victoria southern season ticket holders are valid on GEX, but it would make no sense not to allow this.

Commuters travelling daily at peak hours from Brighton to London Victoria will quite probably have a route "Any Permitted" season ticket costing £122.30 per week (or £156.20 for an all zones Travelcard), and valid on Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink services to/from Brighton.

The cheaper route "Thameslink only" alternative is £112.00 per week (or £122.00 per week for the all zones Travelcard variant).

As @JonathanH has already pointed out, there are no "Southern only" season tickets from Brighton to London.

 

[Basil Jet]

I grew up in Brighton and familiarised myself with the idea of a direct London Victoria to Brighton southern service, but the fact they don't even have that now is really difficult to wrap my head around, despite the route still being advertised through promotional material on their website.

Both of the maps on National Rail's site show Southern service between Brighton and Preston Park! When did this become a lie?

 

[geoffk]

But Southern, GX and Thameslink are all the same operator. I see a half-hourly GX fast service from Victoria to Brighton, calling only at Gatwick. Those could just as easily be branded as Southern, seeing as there's no longer a dedicated Gatwick service. Before privatisation, GX was of course included in Inter-City but the present service, like all others in the south-east corner apart from the SE Javelin, is not of inter-city standard. Are fares from Victoria to Gatwick higher than those to Three Bridges?

 

[JonathanH]

Both of the maps on National Rail's site show Southern service between Brighton and Preston Park! When did this become a lie?

It isn't a lie. There are still some Southern services on that route.

 

[Watershed]

Are fares from Victoria to Gatwick higher than those to Three Bridges?

No, they are graduated. However there are still 'not Gatwick Express' fares from London Terminals to Gatwick and Three Bridges.

 

[JonathanH]

Those could just as easily be branded as Southern, seeing as there's no longer a dedicated Gatwick service.

The Victoria - Gatwick - Brighton services are the dedicated Gatwick service. The DfT, GTR and Gatwick Airport appear to consider it worthwhile to brand it as such.

Before privatisation, GX was of course included in Inter-City but the present service, like all others in the south-east corner apart from the SE Javelin, is not of inter-city standard.

It is much better integrated into the full GTR timetable than it was when it wasn't. The use of modern units means more capacity for passengers.

 

[SargeNpton]

As a user the major irritation is that from Brighton you are always sold a ticket to either Victoria or the London Thameslink destinations. If you want a ticket valid to any of the London Terminals on any train - e.g. to get to Waterloo or Charing X - you're sold a Travelcard regardless of whether you need to use TfL underground or buses. There are ways around this...

There are tickets available between Brighton and "London Terminals", which would be valid to Waterloo by changing at Clapham Junction, or the Charing Cross by changing at London Bridge.

 

[AzureOtsu]

They don't have to change trains to get from Brighton to Victoria.

Read the whole paragraph, the only direct victoria service is the GEX, and you have to pay extra.

 

[JonathanH]

Read the whole paragraph, the only direct victoria service is the GEX, and you have to pay extra.

Other people, not just me, have confirmed that you don't have to pay extra to use Gatwick Express relative to Southern services between Brighton and Victoria.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think the only time there might be an issue is with that Southern Daysave ticket. I don't work in ticket offices these days, so am not up to date, but last time I was in a ticket office it was either Thameslink only or any permitted from Brighton. Apart from the Southern Daysave

Read the whole paragraph, the only direct victoria service is the GEX, and you have to pay extra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is not the frequency of service, but the quality. The Brighton-London Victoria was arguably southern's flagship service. GEX doesn't count in this regard because its a seperate entity.

It's not, it's a brand used by the GTR TOC.

 

[yorkie]

Since the latest cutbacks/withdrawal of the 455s it appears Southern (and much else of the railway network) is currently experiencing a managed decline when passenger numbers are slowly creeping back.

I grew up in Brighton and familiarised myself with the idea of a direct London Victoria to Brighton southern service, but the fact they don't even have that now is really difficult to wrap my head around, despite the route still being advertised through promotional material on their website.

The company operates such a service but brands it differently; it's no different in concept to Greater Anglia branding their Stansted to London service as Stansted Express. The only difference is that GTR breaches the Ticketing Settlement Agreement in doing this.

Having to pay extra for the GEX just to get tables must be a massive put off for anyone travelling between Victoria and Brighton.

Don't pay extra! What fare did you purchase before the change and what is the new fare being quoted now? I am happy to provide assistance to anyone who is wrongly issued an excess or penalty fare.

At the moment, regular commuters from Brighton to Victoria will have to change trains, adding to journey time and they risk not getting a seat as the trains are coming from littlehampton/eastbourne containing passengers from those destinations. The only 2 options for brighton-victoria commuters are this, or pay the premium for the GEX.

Premium fares by brand are not allowed; my advice is to pay the lower fare and, if charged an excess fare, insist on a refund.

I am not sure if brighton-victoria southern season ticket holders are valid on GEX, but it would make no sense not to allow this.

There is no such thing as a Brighton to Victoria "southern season ticket" as such.

Other people, not just me, have confirmed that you don't have to pay extra to use Gatwick Express relative to Southern services between Brighton and Victoria.

There are some fares which are ostensibly priced higher for travel on the GX brand but I agree you don't "have to pay" it from the point of view that GTR are not allowed to charge it and everyone who is charged an excess fare is entitled to a refund (everyone I know of who put in a refund request has been successful) and a legal case is looming which should put an end to this practice.


This thread is relevant:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hopefully there will be some news on this matter in the coming weeks and months.

My point is not the frequency of service, but the quality. The Brighton-London Victoria was arguably southern's flagship service. GEX doesn't count in this regard because its a seperate entity.

The entity is Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), which is the UK's largest train operating company.

GX is merely a brand operated by GTR; it is no different to Stansted Express operated by Greater Anglia.

The only difference in practice is that GTR attempt to unlawfully charge premium fares when not permitted to do so, but anyone who is charged an excess or penalty fare is entitled to obtain a refund. I am not aware of anyone who has been unsuccessful in making such a claim.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Might surprise most people that travel by train just turn up a station with or without a ticket trying to get from A to B and aren't bothered what colour the train is or the name on the side. It might help tourists trying to get to an airport but branding should be seen as a waymarking solution. GBR taking over ticketing and creating a national railway will sort out all this nonsense. All trains will be de-branded hopefully and at best just have a little vinyl saying who the operator is.

 

[JonathanH]

Might surprise most people that travel by train just turn up a station with or without a ticket trying to get from A to B and aren't bothered what colour the train is or the name on the side. It might help tourists trying to get to an airport but branding should be seen as a waymarking solution. GBR taking over ticketing and creating a national railway will sort out all this nonsense. All trains will be de-branded hopefully and at best just have a little vinyl saying who the operator is.

People already act like that surely. Given the choice, and the proviso that there can only be 2tph to Victoria, I can't imagine people in Brighton would rather have a stopping service to Victoria than one which stops only at Gatwick and takes under an hour. The fact that it is painted red and branded as an Airport express really doesn't matter, it just helps it to stand out in the other trains.

 

[Watershed]

People already act like that surely. Given the choice, and the proviso that there can only be 2tph to Victoria, I can't imagine people in Brighton would rather have a stopping service to Victoria than one which stops only at Gatwick and takes under an hour. The fact that it is painted red and branded as an Airport express really doesn't matter, it just helps it to stand out in the other trains.

I think they would rather have the removed stops at East Croydon and Clapham Junction reinstated, rather than crawling through non-stop and then sitting outside Victoria waiting for a platform to become available!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think they would rather have the removed stops at East Croydon and Clapham Junction reinstated, rather than crawling through non-stop and then sitting outside Victoria waiting for a platform to become available!

Agreed. Connectivity is key enabler for promoting increased use of public transport and not providing it at a key interchange for the largest catchment area in the UK is just plain daft

 

[Thebaz]

Moving away from the Brighton ML, the retirement of the 455s have caused rolling stock changes to metro services with 10 car services becoming 8 car and 8 car services becoming 5 car in the peaks. Are we going to see these services re-lengthened as more Electrostar units are moved over from south-eastern or are we now stuck with this for the foreseeable future?

 

[JonathanH]

Are we going to see these services re-lengthened as more Electrostar units are moved over from south-eastern or are we now stuck with this for the foreseeable future?

The mooted units from Southeastern were specifically to displace the 313s (although to be operated as part of the common fleet) so not available to bolster the metro services.

There are some timetable changes in September which might change the balance of capacity slightly but seems to me that the current arrangements are not simply a short term plan.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The mooted units from Southeastern were specifically to displace the 313s (although to be operated as part of the common fleet) so not available to bolster the metro services.

There are some timetable changes in September which might change the balance of capacity slightly but seems to me that the current arrangements are not simply a short term plan.

September timetable will change things quite a bit. Will allow things to be much more effecient. Not sure if this will lead to longer trains, but I think there is a good chance it could in some cases.

 

[Thebaz]

The mooted units from Southeastern were specifically to displace the 313s (although to be operated as part of the common fleet) so not available to bolster the metro services.

There are some timetable changes in September which might change the balance of capacity slightly but seems to me that the current arrangements are not simply a short term plan.

September timetable will change things quite a bit. Will allow things to be much more effecient. Not sure if this will lead to longer trains, but I think there is a good chance it could in some cases.

So as I understand it, there is no long-term plan to replace the 455s as Southern presume to have enough rolling to cover the diagrams already?

 

[seaviewer]

According to my Southern App, a GX single fare (GTW-VIC) is only slightly more expensive (1.60) than the Southern fare. But nearly everybody seems to opt for Southern. As a result Southern trains are crammed and GX ones half-empty. Last time I travelled from LWS, I was seriously concerned i might not be able to get off at East Croydon, it was so busy. About 5 minutes later a GX sailed serenely through with bags of space.
From earlier in the thread, it sounds as though signage at GTW may be the issue. Any observations?
Minded to tackle GTR on the issue.