• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Stickers on tubes: Graffiti or not?

Status
Not open for further replies.

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Guerrilla sticker craze hits London's Tube

If you are one of millions of Londoners who stoically battles through the Tube's rush hour commute, you will no doubt pass dozens of Transport for London signs and notices on your journey.
But how much attention do you actually pay to them?
Has their familiarity as part of everyday visual clutter led to them becoming almost invisible, losing all meaning beyond shape and colour?
Take the following examples:
"No eye contact. Penalty £200."
"We apologise for any incontinence caused during these engineering works."
"Peak hours may necessitate you let other people sit on your lap."
Look familiar? Perhaps not. Yet these are a few of a growing number of guerrilla stickers that have recently appeared on the network.
They use the same fonts and designs as London Underground's famous branding.
But they subvert the intended message making often amusing but sometimes serious points about anything from overcrowding to Tube etiquette.
Some commuters are amused by the stickers, including London blogger, Annie Mole, who says: "A number of them are funny and it breaks up the journey a bit."
But British Transport Police (BTP) warned: "The costs of graffiti are substantial for the railway industry in terms of repairs and clean-up, and can leave permanent scars on the infrastructure."
Transport for London were approached by BBC News but declined the opportunity to comment.
'Escapism' The BBC spoke to a spokesman for website Mixthemessage.com, which sells stickers similar to some of those which have appeared on the Tube.
The spokesman, who referred to himself as James, from east London, said Mixthemessage.com had sold about 200 stickers "for the Underground" so far this year, at an average cost of £2 per sticker.
He believes the stickers are about "taking back power".
"It's a form of rebellion, whether it be due to the current climate of doom and gloom and people wanting to brighten their day," he said.
"It's almost as though people are treating you as a drone and the signs are very serious," James added. "This is a bit of escapism and freedom that people can express relatively easily."
He said he has seen the stickers growing in popularity.
"I have seen more signs, more stickers and other designs, particularly based on the more common signs you see on the Underground," said James.
"Stickers are becoming more popular recently because people are able to produce their own.
"People can just take the sticker out, stick it off and be gone in a couple of seconds."
But he defends his website for selling the stickers.
"I'm not putting them up and mixthemessage.com cannot endorse them being stuck on the Tube," he said.
"It's not graffiti. Stickers can be removed," he added. "It's up to people where they stick the stickers. I don't think it's been doing any particular harm."
'Subversive' Annie Mole, who has been writing the award winning Going Underground blog for the past ten years agrees there has been an increased number of stickers appearing.
"Over the years that I've been blogging, I've seen more and more inventive stickers," she said.
"The fact that they're now commercial to a small extent definitely shows there is a growth or an interest in the stickers."
She says when the stickers started appearing, they were "a bit subversive" but more recently "people have been thinking how far can they really go with them".
But she says she thinks the stickers are "harmless".
"It's less destructive to me than graffiti, where people put there own mark on property," she said.
BTP said graffiti was "unwanted vandalism that causes criminal damage" and "will not be tolerated".
"It is a blight on our society and becomes an eyesore for many residents who overlook the railway," a BTP spokesman added.

_63338929_63338446.jpg
_63343837_63338944.jpg
_63338943_63333491.jpg
_63338634_63338631.jpg
BBC

So are they Graffiti or has the BTP lost their sense of humour?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I have to say, I think is very funny! :D

So long as there are no safety implications and they can be peeled off by eagle-eyed cleaners each night, I don't really see a big issue. It is certainly preferable to the usual meaningless scribbles scrawled everywhere with marker pens, at least these individuals have some demonstrable wit and intelligence unlike the average 'vandal'.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
13,143
Location
Yorkshire
But isn't it only criminal damage if they can't be pealed off without leaving marks or other damage to the surface?

Presumably there's the argument that it still takes staff time to remove them (and find them). And if more daft stickers appear that people are likely to take les notice of them (although it could mean people read more of them on the lookout for oddities).

It is certainly preferable to the usual meaningless scribbles scrawled everywhere with marker pens

Or rather more expensively, something sharp on a window.
 
Last edited:

pendolino

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2010
Messages
737
James from east London said:
The spokesman, who referred to himself as James, from east London, said Mixthemessage.com had sold about 200 stickers "for the Underground" so far this year, at an average cost of £2 per sticker.
He believes the stickers are about "taking back power".
"It's a form of rebellion, whether it be due to the current climate of doom and gloom and people wanting to brighten their day," he said.
"It's almost as though people are treating you as a drone and the signs are very serious," James added. "This is a bit of escapism and freedom that people can express relatively easily."

Yeah that's right James it's just like Tahrir Square.

I don't mind the stickers but the 'guerilla' thing and the suggestion that it's a rebellious act or a bit 'edgy' puts me off. If it was that rebellious James'd be giving them away, not charging £2 a time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
they can be peeled off by eagle-eyed cleaners each night

Maybe, maybe not:

www.mixthemessage.com said:
3. Handle the sticker with care. Be careful not to accidently tear, the material the sticker is printed on is relatively thin (this is what makes it difficult to remove once stuck to a surface).
 

TheVicLine

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2012
Messages
435
Location
Liverpool
But isn't it only criminal damage if they can't be pealed off without leaving marks or other damage to the surface?

Peeled off by who?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I used to work for and then ran the LU graffiti team and I would say that stickers are 100% graffiti and an act of vandalism.

LU spend millions £'s of tax payers money every year removing graffiti, be it paint, marker pens, leather dye, hydrofluoric acid, scratch graffiti, or stickers (we even had a carriage covered in graffiti excrement one night, we thought it was mud until one of the team sprayed soapy water on it... nice).

LU have a policy that all graffiti is removed within 24 hours and I don't think the general public realise the ammount of effort, time, and money goes into enforcing this.

Spend a night with the graffiti or cleaning teams on LU and you will see that a few hundred stickers, thousands on a bad night, and that's not counting pen/paint graffiti, are a serious problem.
And the clean up doesn't stop there as all graffiti is photographed, catagorised, logged on LU's graffiti database and then uploaded to the BTP.
I have spent hours and hours working on expert witness graffiti costing statements for BTP, some of the more prolific graffiti guys cost the Underground £100,000,s TOX is well over £1m, sad really.

That little graffiti pen tag or sticker really isn't so innocent now...

Still not convinced then post your address so that me and my crew of graffiti "artists" can come round your house tonight and EVERY night and cover your windows and car in "hummerous and ammusing" non graffiti stickers.
 
Last edited:

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
^^ Well, can't argue with that really :| I stand thoroughly corrected, my apologies for failing to appreciate the task of those who have to deal with it. There was me visualising the carriage cleaners just casually peeling them off, if only!

I often get irritated by the current glorification of graffiti vandals, or indeed "street artists" as certain rather naive (or just plain stupid) people like to call them. I hadn't really considered that 'removable' stickers would be quite so serious, but of course on reflection they clearly are. I completely agree that the best punishment for these individuals would be for some similar 'artwork' to be carried out on their own property.

It's good, and indeed very impressive, to know that LU have such a robust policy to deal with the problem, and I would imagine that removing so swiftly would have a significant impact on how much damage is suffered, even if there is still far too much of it.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
It appears that in order for criminal damage to have occurred the damage need not be permanent.

Graffiti being criminal damage is "a matter of fact and degree" and whilst it has been found that spitting on a policeman's raincoat is not criminal damage (as this could easly be wiped off) a temporary 'derangement' of a policeman cap as a result of being jumped on is criminal damage.

See; Samuels v Stubbs [1972], Hardman v Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset [1986], Roe v Kingerless [1986], A v R [1978] and others.
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,503
Location
London
Peeled off by who?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I used to work for and then ran the LU graffiti team and I would say that stickers are 100% graffiti and an act of vandalism.

LU spend millions £'s of tax payers money every year removing graffiti, be it paint, marker pens, leather dye, hydrofluoric acid, scratch graffiti, or stickers (we even had a carriage covered in graffiti excrement one night, we thought it was mud until one of the team sprayed soapy water on it... nice).

LU have a policy that all graffiti is removed within 24 hours and I don't think the general public realise the ammount of effort, time, and money goes into enforcing this.

Spend a night with the graffiti or cleaning teams on LU and you will see that a few hundred stickers, thousands on a bad night, and that's not counting pen/paint graffiti, are a serious problem.
And the clean up doesn't stop there as all graffiti is photographed, catagorised, logged on LU's graffiti database and then uploaded to the BTP.
I have spent hours and hours working on expert witness graffiti costing statements for BTP, some of the more prolific graffiti guys cost the Underground £100,000,s TOX is well over £1m, sad really.

That little graffiti pen tag or sticker really isn't so innocent now...

Still not convinced then post your address so that me and my crew of graffiti "artists" can come round your house tonight and EVERY night and cover your windows and car in "hummerous and ammusing" non graffiti stickers.
Would be nice if that program on BBC2 (The Tube?) were to return for a second series covered just how much effort goes to keeping the network in the good condition that it's in.. I know I for one would be very interested to see (then again I'd love to work at Acton Depot - bit more interesting than IT! :lol:)
 

maniacmartin

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,416
Location
Croydon
Saw one on First Capital Connect too last year. Didn't look easy to peel off.

Guess which one's the fake ;)
 

Attachments

  • fccnotice.jpg
    fccnotice.jpg
    42.4 KB · Views: 219

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,436
Location
UK
I know which one people are more likely to take notice of!

PS. Despite my avatar, this clearly seems to me to be vandalism. And if the stickers are designed to be hard to remove, it's even more obvious.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,038
Location
Yorkshire
It's not graffiti, nor is it criminal damage (IMO and in any sane definition, though the law is not always sane) providing they can be peeled off relatively easily without leaving a mark.

However if peeling them off requires specialist solutions and/or leaves a mark, then however amusing they may be, it is damage and not acceptable.

Saw one on First Capital Connect too last year. Didn't look easy to peel off.

Guess which one's the fake ;)
The first one is fake. There is even less legroom on FCC trains than shown in the picture, and it asks for feet to be off seats however that person does not have any feet. It's also not a realistic drawing, particularly as one of the legs is detached. Do I will a prize? ;)
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
29,016
Location
Redcar
and it asks for seat to be off seats however that person does not have any feet.

Crickey I hadn't realised it was so bad they were trying to put seats on top of seats to try and get everyone in :lol:
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,499
Location
Buckinghamshire
Carried out on a small scale then it is definitely humour. Once it gets out of hand it becomes graffiti.
 

TheVicLine

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2012
Messages
435
Location
Liverpool
Carried out on a small scale then it is definitely humour. Once it gets out of hand it becomes graffiti.

Call it humour but it still costs the company responsible for the cleanliness of the trains money and time to remove them.

Just because LU are a multi billion pound public concern doesn't make it right in my opinion.
If it's not acceptable on a large scale then how can it be acceptable at all.
If I walk up to a random stranger and punch them, is it ok if it is only a small punch?

Got to admit though some of them are well funny, even the graffiti team and cleaning staff removing them used to find them ammusing.

Does anyone remember the round black and orange "Toaster" stickers from a few years back, we would get hundreds and hundreds of these every night on the trains, they ended up with a huge cult following and I have seen them for sale for a lot of money in the rarer colours, wish I had kept them all. They spread all over the country and they still make me smile when I see one in a really obscure place, even seen them abroad (took my LU hat off there :)).
 

MattRobinson

Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
276
Location
Wakefield
I find them amusing, but it's a bit disappointing that they've been designed to be hard to remove- that doesn't make it a joke any more.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,037
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Being considered by many on the forum as something of a boring old fogey and one who rarely strays onto the London Underground threads, the commonly understood lexicological meaning of the term "graffiti" does not include the application of stickers, but is more to do with the application of markings by hand-held objects that leave a mark.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,436
Location
UK
If the stickers were on a plastic film that was easily applied (and removed) then I'd not really have a problem with stickers - as long as they were funny and not offensive.

These are supposedly tamper proof and therefore not intended to be removed and, to me, would be criminal damage. I am not a lawyer though.
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,018
Location
Burton on Trent
IMO, they're as bad as the 'the person sitting below this advert, could be your dream partner' somehow all the strange looking people seem to sit under there :lol:

Still, small scale : a laugh
When it gets out of hand : spoiling everyone's fun <(
 

Tracky

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2011
Messages
483
LU should apply them to all the trains... Might make londoners smile... just.

And if LU did it, in a uniform way there would be no reason for the public to stick em on...
 

bengley

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2008
Messages
1,931
It's not graffiti and it doesn't have to cost the train operator anything to remove them, all they have to do is leave them there!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,436
Location
UK
It's not graffiti and it doesn't have to cost the train operator anything to remove them, all they have to do is leave them there!

Should they do that with all the 'real' graffiti and etched doors and panels too?

If the person making the stickers had done so with a material that was designed to be easily applied and removed, then I'd say it's fine. A bit of harmless fun, as long as there's nothing offensive. Perhaps leave the safety notices alone too.

But if they're designed to be hard to remove, then they've crossed the line (sic) in my opinion.
 

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,191
Location
London
If they proliferate to any great extent then they could end up confusing and confounding the REAL notices which are there for a purpose.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top