Stockport - Stalybridge return

[Eagle]

I love that we're still using 'chains' in the 21st Century. Is that 22 yards? Or is it a rod, pole or perch?

A chain is 22 yards, or 4 roods, or 4 poles, or 4 perches, or 1/80 mile.

And the only reason we still use them is because it would have been too much effort to change them to kilometres (though compare this to the trunk road network, which went fully metric in 1968).

 

[snail]

Oh, that is a bit bizarre. A literal reading would suggest that (assuming (d) does apply to through trains) an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket cannot be used on a through train, as such a train is not a permitted route.

But that ignores the caveat that "These restrictions will be shown on the ticket". By definition, Any Permitted cannot be restricted and direct is allowed by (a)(i).

 

[northwichcat]

A strange occurrence on the ATOS booking engine for Stockport-Stalybridge trains - apparently 1st class accommodation is available! (Although no FC tickets.)

 

[igloo]

A strange occurrence on the ATOS booking engine for Stockport-Stalybridge trains - apparently 1st class accommodation is available! (Although no FC tickets.)

brfares and RSH both think there are FC tickets. NRE presumably doesn't offer them because they're all route "METROLINK (GM)".

 

[Deerfold]

Presumably the FC tickets are for going via Manchester with on TPE?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't have an issue with their being FC tickets available as the entire journey is possible on First Class

Stockport-Manchester - Virgin, XC or TPE
Manchester-Stalybridge - TPE

What I was saying is the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary is advertised as having First Class accommodation available. Although, correctly a First Class ticket is not been shown as available for travel on the parliamentary.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't have an issue with their being FC tickets available as the entire journey is possible on First Class

Stockport-Manchester - Virgin, XC or TPE
Manchester-Stalybridge - TPE

What I was saying is the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary is advertised as having First Class accommodation available. Although, correctly a First Class ticket is not been shown as available for travel on the parliamentary.

Interestingly RSH will offer the FC ticket but EC will not...

 

[bb21]

Could I therefore get some particular through trains from Donny to Retford or Gainsborough LR or Lincoln even though they go round all the houses via Sheffield at no extra cost? Or is there a negative easement I haven't seen?

Direct trains are always permitted, unless a route restriction or TOC-restriction prevents that particular service being used. This is not affected by negative easements.

Therefore a Doncaster - Retford Route Any Permitted Anytime Day Single priced at £9.70 is perfectly valid for travel between these two stations on, for example, this service. The guard might think that you are bonkers. It however does not change the validity of the ticket.

There is no mileage given for Stockport - Stalybridge. So is that counted as 0, like (IIRC) cross-London transfers? In which case, Stockport - StalyBridge - Manchester would be within 3 miles of the shortest route.

An official response from a senior member of staff at ATOC suggested that the missing mileages were mistakes and they would be added at the next timetable revision. This was in Summer 2011. The distance should therefore not be taken as zero.

 

[Sidious]

Obviously you can't.

London Terminals to Birmingham Stations, route Via High Wycombe: can I go via Milton Keynes instead simply because it's a direct train? Of course not.

I agree - Obviously common sense has to prevail - A direct train between two stations is always a permitted route for an "Any Permitted" route ticket, but a direct train between two stations may not be available if the ticket has restrictions (as the example above).

So to quote the Doncaster - Retford example that is an extention of a Scunthorpe - Lincoln service.

The shortest route is Scunthorpe - Barnetby - Lincoln and has a Super OP Return priced at £20.60 Route "Not Doncaster".

The Route "Any Permitted" ticket costs £24.80 and according to the Routeing Guide would be available on:

Scunthorpe - Barnetby - Lincoln
Scunthorpe - Doncaster - Lincoln (JL)
Scunthorpe - Doncaster - Retford - Lincoln (NE)

Nowhere is via Sheffield mentioned as a fare or in the routeing guide maps. It would become a valid route for the journey with a £24.80 ANY PERMITTED fare, but would still not be a valid route with a £20.60 "Not Doncaster" route.

In the same way just the Doncaster to Retford section would become valid with an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket on the direct train via Sheffield, even though it is not mentioned in the routeing guide but would not be a valid route if one purchased the "Hull Trains Only" ticket from Doncaster to Retford.

Stalybridge - Stockport are both routeing points but neither GM or MR maps show the direct route between the two stations as a valid route. It would however be permitted both as the shortest route and by virtue of a direct train.

In absence of a direct train, the following permutations are available according to the routing guide:

Stalybridge -> Victoria -> Piccadilly -> Stockport (Map GM)
Stalybridge -> Guide Bridge -> Piccadilly -> Stockport (Both maps GM and MR)
Stalybridge -> Guide Bridge -> Piccadilly -> Willmslow -> Stockport (Map MR)

I can only find an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket so all should be open.

 

[Buttsy]

I remember having a discussion with a ticket clerk at Stockport many years ago. I had been travelling around on a rover (can't remember which one) but it gave me access to Stockport & Piccadilly (I think it covered Chester) and I wanted to take the Stalybridge train (which was Fridays only) and I asked for a return to Guide Bridge and he tried to sell me one that was via Manchester (would have said this on the ticket). I asked if it was valid on the direct train and he said, no, only via Manchester. I argued that it must be (not knowing the routing guide at that point) as it was the quickest train. He said I had to buy a single for that journey and another to Piccadilly in that case. I refused as it doubled the cost of the journey (line bashing on a shoestring...). Eventually he sold me the day ranger for 30p more and we were both moderately happy.

I know now that it is a rare exception that a direct train is NOT valid when you hold a ticket between 2 points.

 

[dggar]

The line between Stockport and GuideBridge is not shown on the
GMPTE rail network map

http://www.tfgm.com/trains/Documents/Rail-A4-colour-May-2012.pdf.

Does this imply that the GM over 60's travel pass is not valid on the direct rail link

 

[Deerfold]

The line between Stockport and GuideBridge is not shown on the
GMPTE rail network map

http://www.tfgm.com/trains/Documents/Rail-A4-colour-May-2012.pdf.

Does this imply that the GM over 60's travel pass is not valid on the direct rail link

Previous discussions suggest it's only left off so as not to confuse travellers due to the infrequent service (see posts at the beginnig of this thread).

 

[igloo]

There is no mileage given for Stockport - Stalybridge. So is that counted as 0, like (IIRC) cross-London transfers? In which case, Stockport - StalyBridge - Manchester would be within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Just got a response from ATOC:

There is distance data in the Industry systems between Stalybridge and Stockport set as 7.6 miles.

Because the Stockport to Manchester journey via Stalybridge is not travelling on the shortest distance then it is not a valid route.

So in this instance the route that you have enquired about would therefore not be permitted.

I don't think I want to be arguing about the validity with the guard anyway, so I won't press ATOC on how they reconcile this position with "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.".