Stopping patterns for intercity Euston-West Midlands services in the 1970s/early 80s

[hexagon789]

Were these slowdowns due to extra stops, recovery time, lots of freight services, or something else?

Additional TSRs imposed due to delayed maintenance.

Was it 1989 when a clockface pattern came back, incidentally? Presumably once everything was 110mph then they could create a less complex pattern.

Everything was never all 110mph, even the usual Mk3 routes were never all 110mph timed under BR. 1989 did mark the first extension though of 110mph timings outside the Glasgow services (for a total of 14 trains) but it was limited to the Birmingham Pullman (which was up only) and the Manchester Pullman services, the other Manchester workings remaining 100mph and the EBW corridor remaining the mainstay of the 100mph Mk2F sets. Manchester departures did go to XX:00 off Euston from 0900 onwards; Liverpool remained at a 90 minute interval service.

one feature I do recall from 1974 was thinking how poorly served Lancaster was and it was notable when travelling on a WCML train which did call at Lancaster, that it would typically be busier between Preston and Lancaster than any other part of the journey.

Indeed, only one Glasgow service called at Lancaster then. Through the early 1980s it seemed to gain more and more calls in Anglo-Scottish trains, featuring in The Clansman from 1983 and even The Royal Scot for a few years as well as most Glasgow trains, a definite change from '74.

 

[Springs Branch]

The relatively few WCML trains at Wigan and Warrington having been mentioned above, one feature I do recall from 1974 was thinking how poorly served Lancaster was and it was notable when travelling on a WCML train which did call at Lancaster, that it would typically be busier between Preston and Lancaster than any other part of the journey.

It's interesting to read these posts on the poor level of WCML services in Lancashire, and a good excuse to pull old timetables off the shelf. There's no disputing how sparse the services were back then compared to recent times, or the big gaps at certain times of day.

However I don't really remember feeling too hard-done-by back in that era of Inter-City Mk2s and Electric Scots.

I travelled fairly regularly from Wigan NW to destinations such as London, Glasgow and Edinburgh; Blackpool, Windermere, Lancaster and Ulverston; Bangor, Holyhead and Cambridge (via Nuneaton & March). Obviously there wasn't a choice of two or three trains per hour through the day, but I always seemed to find a suitable train scheduled around the time I needed to travel, and any connections along the way worked out OK.

Although the Euston/Glasgow trains didn't stop at Wigan, whenever heading north I made good use of the Lime Street - Glasgow/Edinburgh "portions", plus a couple of odd-ball but useful trains (mentioned below), which usually seemed to fit in with my travel needs.

The only occasion I recall being a bit annoyed was needing to attend an interview in Birmingham one morning. There were neither direct trains nor well-timed connections between Wigan and New Street, and I had to endure long, chilly mid-winter festers at Crewe both ways. Lucky I was wearing an anorak, so could spend the wait on the platform at Crewe enjoying all the comings and goings, but a "normal" punter probably wouldn't be happy.

Mustn't forget the morning Crewe - Carlisle and the evening return . . . .

Ah yes, good old 1P16 and 1K17. Always very useful for the start or end of a day out (for a time regularly formed of early Mk2A stock too - the ones with the extra door in the middle of the carriage). Not to mention that morning Crewe-Preston Class 304 EMU for a taste of commuter belt vibe in the South Lancs coalfield.

 

[Magdalia]

Always notable on the multiple Liverpool/Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh trains, introduced from a low base in 1974, and many of which did call at Lancaster, was how many got off the northbound trains there. I used these quite a lot. The university seemed a particular generator - ironically the WCML passed its entrance gates some miles south of the station, but there never seems to have been a proposal for a station there. Sunday evenings upwards of 100 might alight there.

My first experiences of WCML travel were to University interviews. Having looked at the brochures I placed Lancaster as first choice. The interview was on a cold grey January day, travelling on 0900 Euston-Carlisle and 1552 Carlisle-Euston, which made for a very long day. Two other options were in the West Midlands, I did one via London on the 0940 Euston-Wolverhampton and 1618 Birmingham-Euston, the other cross country by DMU on 0803 Norwich to Birmingham and 1615 back.

After those interviews, I accepted the conditional offers from the two West Midlands Universities. Lancaster was too cold, too bleak, too isolated, too far away and with too few trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

After those interviews, I accepted the conditional offers from the two West Midlands Universities. Lancaster was too cold, too bleak, too isolated, too far away and with too few trains.

I'm sure you had a great time wherever you ended up (university is more about people than place in a lot of ways), but Lancaster is a lovely city, in some ways (due to the architecture and university) a bit of a working class Oxford/Cambridge. And so close to the Lakes. Because of most buildings being grey stone it does look very bleak on a dull day, though, which is a shame. And I guess much more industrial back then.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Ah yes, good old 1P16 and 1K17. Always very useful for the start or end of a day out (for a time regularly formed of early Mk2A stock too - the ones with the extra door in the middle of the carriage). Not to mention that morning Crewe-Preston Class 304 EMU for a taste of commuter belt vibe in the South Lancs coalfield.

With calls at Hartford too which also had a daily train to London, and if I remember correctly a Liverpool to South West train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2022 ==

It's interesting to read these posts on the poor level of WCML services in Lancashire, and a good excuse to pull old timetables off the shelf. There's no disputing how sparse the services were back then compared to recent times, or the big gaps at certain times of day.

Overall perhaps not so much sparse services (although significantly less than now) more a case of sparse intermediate calls - as noted-non stop between Preston and Carlisle was the norm for Anglo Scots apart from some on the LIV/MCV - GLC/EDB axis.

 

[jfollows]

With calls at Hartford too which also had a daily train to London, and if I remember correctly a Liverpool to South West train.

In 1974, 1K17 and 1P16 called at Hartford. Also 1V76 09:20 Liverpool-Penzance and 1M85 07:40 Penzance-Liverpool. However no London service then, certainly one came along in later years. [By 1979, 1A08 06:22 Liverpool-Euston called, but there was yet no down train that called then.]

[I think there is an unofficial rule on these forums that any discussion about train stopping patters gets round to Hartford eventually!]

 

[Taunton]

In 1974, 1K17 and 1P16 called at Hartford. Also 1V76 09:20 Liverpool-Penzance and 1M85 07:40 Penzance-Liverpool. However no London service then, certainly one came along in later years. [By 1979, 1A08 06:22 Liverpool-Euston called, but there was yet no down train that called then.]

[I think there is an unofficial rule on these forums that any discussion about train stopping patters gets round to Hartford eventually!]

These stops were longstanding. From when we first used the day train from Plymouth (Taunton) to Liverpool in 1962, via Hereford, it stopped at Hartford. I believe the presence of major ICI chemicals facilities at both Severnside (Avonmouth; Bristol) and at Northwich - Hartford is effectively a suburb of Northwich - led to business travel between the two. The train next stopped at Runcorn, of course, which then was another ICI major point.

 

[jfollows]

These stops were longstanding. From when we first used the day train from Plymouth (Taunton) to Liverpool in 1962, via Hereford, it stopped at Hartford.

1M91 in the attachment from the following year's (9/9/63 to 14/6/64) timetable. I guess that 1K28 which you can just make out and which followed it but didn't stop at Hartford was a relief service from Birmingham. (Last sentence is wrong because you already said that 1M91 went via Hereford.)

 

[nw1]

Oxenholme and Penrith saw even fewer WCML trains than Lancaster, in the main the Euston Carlisle and the Liv/Man-Scotland services (plus the Crewe), and the Windermere branch an irregular shuttle with occasional extensions to Lancaster (only)

I am amazed Lancaster had such a poor service, I'd have expected alternate Euston-Glasgow services to call at least, and all the Birmingham services. Warrington and Wigan fared better it seems with the Blackpool services as well, getting 2 trains every 3 hours.

Windermere must in that case have been a real pain to get to by train then. One might infer that some shuttles had no connection with main line services at all, or alternatively the shuttle was infrequent with long layovers at one end or the other.

Even in the 80s, Stafford, much further south, had a relatively infrequent service. For example in 1983/84 there was an irregular service to Euston, perhaps every 90 minutes or so, formed largely of Liverpools but the occasional Holyhead. Birminghams generally left around xx25, originating either Manchester or Liverpool, and northbound also called around xx25 (the xx55 ex-Birmingham). However in some hours, the trains didn't stop so it was typically something like 3 trains every 4 hours to/from Birmingham. In other hours, by contrast, you had both a Manchester and a Liverpool calling, so there was a 1421 (ex-Manchester) and then a 1426 (ex-Liverpool) to Birmingham, for instance.

Add to that a two-hourly 304 stopper to Piccadilly, an irregular Trent Valley 304 shuttle, and peak-hour-only stoppers to Birmingham, and that was your lot!

Still a great place for a rail enthusiast though, as there were also plenty of non-stop services and freights, so you didn't get bored.

 

[tbwbear]

In context though - Lancaster's service probably vastly improved with electrification....

Looking at 1971/72 - on a weekday in the space of 24 hours all we have going north over Shap are 0915 (ex Liverpool to Glasgow), 1025 (ex Crewe to Carlisle - stopping at Hartford) 1259 (ex Euston to Carlisle) 1658 (ex Euston to Carlisle) 1755 (ex Liverpool to Glasgow) and 2154 (ex Euston to Carlisle).

That is it - 6 trains to Carlisle and just 2 beyond to Glasgow.

[I think there is an unofficial rule on these forums that any discussion about train stopping patters gets round to Hartford eventually!]

One train a day from Hartford though !

Mornington Crescent !

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Windermere must in that case have been a real pain to get to by train then. One might infer that some shuttles had no connection with main line services at all, or alternatively the shuttle was infrequent with long layovers at one end or the other.

In '74 all seven(!) of the down WCML trains which called at Oxenholme (only one of which went beyond Carlisle) had a reasonable connection onto the branch, but pretty much pot luck if travelling from the north. The only other branch train was the 16.40 from Lancaster. On the branch there were gaps of over 2 hours in the morning, two hours in the afternoon and three hours in the evening.

In the early 90s the branch service was still pretty thin and I recall coming off a train from the south (which were more numerous by then) and being among 120 or so who joined a cl156 only to be advised by the Guard we were to wait for passengers off a late running southbound train. Over half an hour later THREE passengers made that connection, I remain unconvinced that was the right decision even knowing the three would have had to wait over an hour for the next train!

 

[Magdalia]

Birmingham International first appears in the May 1976 timetable. Most but not all Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton trains call there from the outset, though 2 morning up trains and 4 evening down trains called at Hampton in Arden instead. By May 1978 the 4 down trains are reduced to 1, with this and the 2 up trains also calling at Birmingham International. The Hampton in Arden calls end in May 1980.

By accident I've been reminded of two other trains that called at Hampton in Arden instead of Birmingham International. One was 1623 Manchester-Coventry, lasting until May 1979, the other was 0813 Rugby-Liverpool, lasting until May 1980.

 

[jfollows]

By accident I've been reminded of two other trains that called at Hampton in Arden instead of Birmingham International. One was 1623 Manchester-Coventry, lasting until May 1979, the other was 0813 Rugby-Liverpool, lasting until May 1980.

I used to go home from school in Manchester to Macclesfield on the 1623 and I remember the announcements including the Hampton in Arden stop.

 

[nw1]

I used to go home from school in Manchester to Macclesfield on the 1623 and I remember the announcements including the Hampton in Arden stop.

I guess these two were timed for the Birmingham peak. This service must have been something like an 1800 departure from New St, and the return (0813 from Rugby) perhaps an 0845 or so arrival? I would guess it would have formed the 0855 New St to Liverpool. Incidentally, Rugby as an origin point for an IC is in itself unusual but I guess the reason was once again to serve the Birmingham peak.

I know in later years (mid-80s) the Liverpool service at this time started from Paddington (Reading 0630), perhaps the change happened in May 1980.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2022 ==

This is generally true about outer suburban stops for long distance trains. The classic example is Bristol Parkway, which seems to generate as much London traffic nowadays as Temple Meads.

I visit periodically from London premises in Tyseley, commonly thought of as inner city Birmingham. But it's better indeed to get a taxi back to International. A downside in the evening peak though is finding nearly all/all the seats taken by then.

The recent progressive withdrawl of stops at Watford Junction (back to this thread) has been a significant downer to business travel for those both living and working in a large swathe around the north and west sides of London.

I do remember in the mid-80s a large proportion of trains stopped at Watford Junction, perhaps more than half of the Stafford to Euston services (mostly Liverpools).

I also remember trains making the stop regularly in more recent times, perhaps early or mid 00s. I guess the VHF timetable forced the cuts?

Maybe if the WCML settles down into a half-hourly pattern (e.g. half-hourly to Birmingham and Manchester) there will be paths to add the Watford stops back in again. Going OT but a half-hourly pattern would also enable regularisation of the local trains too, the WCML between London and Birmingham in recent years has been a messy mish-mash of trying to work 20-min and 30-min interval services together...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2022 ==

I think it's only the rail industry that thinks it is centre to centre, because that is what they have done since Victorian times. Meanwhile the world moved on, at both ends of the journey. In my extensive travels out from London around the country I can scarcely recall a business meeting in the city centre anywhere. Thinking about it, it's notable how many such offices are closer to the city's airport than they are to the railway station.

Old Oak Common will be a failure for such traffic because it is too far in and has poor road connections - if you live in Rickmansworth or Borehamwood it takes far too long to get in there. The stop should have been put where it crosses the M25.

Though OOC will be excellent for rail connections (e.g. to Reading, Heathrow, GWR-land, and even Hampshire via Reading or Clapham Junction (?) - is OOC on the Clapham-Willesden route? Not sure). So I do think it's been a worthwhile project; of the two options I would vote OOC.

 

[jfollows]

I guess these two were timed for the Birmingham peak. This service must have been something like an 1800 departure from New St, and the return (0813 from Rugby) perhaps an 0845 or so arrival? I would guess it would have formed the 0855 New St to Liverpool. Incidentally, Rugby as an origin point for an IC is in itself unusual but I guess the reason was once again to serve the Birmingham peak.

I only have the 1974 WTT in which 1G61 (16:23 Piccadilly-Coventry) doesn't call at Hampton in Arden, but I only started using that train in January 1977, when it probably did, but in any case in 1974 it was booked to leave New Street at 18:10 for an 18:28 arrival after a non-stop run to Coventry. 1F10, the 08:16 Rugby-Liverpool, did call at Hampton in Arden at 08:37 for a 08:53 arrival into New Street. Obviously before Birmingham International anyway at that time.

 

[Rescars]

By accident I've been reminded of two other trains that called at Hampton in Arden instead of Birmingham International. One was 1623 Manchester-Coventry, lasting until May 1979, the other was 0813 Rugby-Liverpool, lasting until May 1980.

As a bit of an aside, back in the day before Birmingham International opened, there was a London based chief steward (born and bred in Clapham) on the Euston-Birmingham route who insisted on referring to Hampton-in-Arden as Arding and Hobbs (his local department store)

 

[CW2]

By the early 1980s, after years of the WCML track being hammered to death by 86s running at 100 mph, TSRs were rife, the track condition was poor, and the ride was notoriously rough. Alarmingly, the number of broken rails was increasing sharply. Over several years a campaign of "daytime patrolling" by p.way staff was used to bring the condition of the track back up to scratch. After the passage of the key morning WCML Peak services, possessions would be taken (on a rotating cyclical basis) of either the Up Fast, Up Slow, Down Fast, of Down Slow between nominated junctions, so that the PW Engineers could walk the track in daylight and fettle it as required. Obviously this meant a certain degree of flexibility was needed in the timetabling, as the possession site might be (say) Willesden Jn to Harrow on Monday, Harrow to Watford on Tuesday, Watford to Kings Langley on Wednesday, etc. So there was a "timetabled weave" allowance put into the off-peak services, allowing for one Fast - Slow - Fast weave to take place. I can't remember the exact value - it might have been 8 - 10 minutes in every train. Whilst the spotlight was on the track maintenance staff, the signallers really had to be on the top of their game too, as their "working norms" were changing from day to day, and the ability to foresee junction conflicts and regulate accordingly became a key skill. It took several years, and the rebuilding of the 86s and restriction of Roarers to 80 mph to give the WCML a chance of recovering to a decent standard of track. Arguably this only papered over the cracks until the West Coast Route Modernisation and Virgin Pendolinos came along, which included a full scale rebuilding of many long-damaged track sections..

 

[Magdalia]

I guess these two were timed for the Birmingham peak. This service must have been something like an 1800 departure from New St, and the return (0813 from Rugby) perhaps an 0845 or so arrival? I would guess it would have formed the 0855 New St to Liverpool. Incidentally, Rugby as an origin point for an IC is in itself unusual but I guess the reason was once again to serve the Birmingham peak.

I know in later years (mid-80s) the Liverpool service at this time started from Paddington (Reading 0630), perhaps the change happened in May 1980.

I only have the 1974 WTT in which 1G61 (16:23 Piccadilly-Coventry) doesn't call at Hampton in Arden, but I only started using that train in January 1977, when it probably did, but in any case in 1974 it was booked to leave New Street at 18:10 for an 18:28 arrival after a non-stop run to Coventry. 1F10, the 08:16 Rugby-Liverpool, did call at Hampton in Arden at 08:37 for a 08:53 arrival into New Street. Obviously before Birmingham International anyway at that time.

There was also an 0726 Coventry-Manchester that called Hampton in Arden until May 1980.

The 1623 Manchester-Coventry started to call Hampton in Arden in 1976, when Birmingham International opened. It ran ahead of the 1818 Euston from Birmingham, departing at 1810. The 1818 stopping at Birmingham International enabled the 1623 Manchester to stop at Hampton in Arden without delaying the 1818 Euston. When the Hampton in Arden stop was replaced with a Birmingham International stop in May 1979 it was retimed to follow the 1818 Euston at 1821 and ran through to Paddington.

Both of the Coventry/Manchester trains were part of the NW/SW circuit. The 0726 ex Coventry formed the 1023 to Plymouth at Manchester, the 1623 to Coventry was formed off the 1025 from Taunton.

On the other hand, the 0813 Rugby-Liverpool was an LM set, I remember it being MkIIC A/B coaches. It worked back on 1121 Liverpool-Birmingham and I think in the evening it did 1655 Birmingham-Liverpool and 1921 Liverpool-Birmingham. Then in May 1979 the 1121 Liverpool-Birmingham was extended to Paddington and the 1655 Birmingham-Liverpool started from Paddington, replacing the 1325 Birmingham-Paddington and 1350 Paddington-Birmingham respectively.

 

[Taunton]

In '74 all seven(!) of the down WCML trains which called at Oxenholme (only one of which went beyond Carlisle) had a reasonable connection onto the branch,

One of these must be the morning Liverpool-Edinburgh, as it was on that, in this very year, that I experienced my first, and possibly only, Fail To Call. Passengers had started to assemble by the doors, went through at full speed, guard pulled it up about a mile beyond. No PA then. Stopped for about 20 minutes, then got going, guard came through to blandly say forgot to stop, change at Penrith and come back.

 

[nw1]

There was also an 0726 Coventry-Manchester that called Hampton in Arden until May 1980.

The 1623 Manchester-Coventry started to call Hampton in Arden in 1976, when Birmingham International opened. It ran ahead of the 1818 Euston from Birmingham, departing at 1810. The 1818 stopping at Birmingham International enabled the 1623 Manchester to stop at Hampton in Arden without delaying the 1818 Euston. When the Hampton in Arden stop was replaced with a Birmingham International stop in May 1979 it was retimed to follow the 1818 Euston at 1821 and ran through to Paddington.

Both of the Coventry/Manchester trains were part of the NW/SW circuit. The 0726 ex Coventry formed the 1023 to Plymouth at Manchester, the 1623 to Coventry was formed off the 1025 from Taunton.

Always interesting to hear these historical Cross-Country patterns, particularly for the period immediately before I started using and observing the services. By 1983/84, the 1023 from Manchester had been diverted to Brighton. Possibly it was replaced, an hour earlier, by the 0920 Liverpool-Penzance which has been mentioned a few times on previous threads.

On the other hand, the 0813 Rugby-Liverpool was an LM set, I remember it being MkIIC A/B coaches. It worked back on 1121 Liverpool-Birmingham and I think in the evening it did 1655 Birmingham-Liverpool and 1921 Liverpool-Birmingham. Then in May 1979 the 1121 Liverpool-Birmingham was extended to Paddington and the 1655 Birmingham-Liverpool started from Paddington, replacing the 1325 Birmingham-Paddington and 1350 Paddington-Birmingham respectively.

Again, a bit later the 1655 had become a Poole starter, in 1983/84 - though I cannot recall whether it was still a Liverpool, or had become a Manchester.

The 1121 Liverpool-Birmingham still ran in 1983/84 (1227 out of Stafford) but was truncated to Birmingham again, and has come up on a recent thread (the 85s thread, I think) as being 310-operated on a summer Saturday due to unavailability of hauled stock. Can't recall what replaced it south of Birmingham, perhaps the southbound Newcastle-Poole?

 

[Magdalia]

Always interesting to hear these historical Cross-Country patterns, particularly for the period immediately before I started using and observing the services. By 1983/84, the 1023 from Manchester had been diverted to Brighton. Possibly it was replaced, an hour earlier, by the 0920 Liverpool-Penzance which has been mentioned a few times on previous threads.

The 0920 Liverpool-Penzance and 1023 Manchester-Plymouth were both long standing trains going back to at least 1973. They were descendants of old GWR trains via Hereford, though in those days the Manchester train went to Penzance and the Liverpool train went to Plymouth. What changed was the introduction of XC HSTs in 1982, the 1023 Manchester's path to Plymouth being taken by an HST from Newcastle. The same HST took the path of the old Newcastle-Poole which was retimed by about an hour.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

old Newcastle-Poole which was retimed by about an hour.

I remember the 'old Newcastle Poole' - plus portion from Leeds, as a lengthy train of ageing 90mph SR Mk1 stock when virtually everything else on what we now know as Cross Country was LMR, ER or WR Mk2s or at worst commonwealth bogied Mark 1s.

 

[jfollows]

By the early 1980s, after years of the WCML track being hammered to death by 86s running at 100 mph, TSRs were rife, the track condition was poor, and the ride was notoriously rough. Alarmingly, the number of broken rails was increasing sharply. Over several years a campaign of "daytime patrolling" by p.way staff was used to bring the condition of the track back up to scratch. After the passage of the key morning WCML Peak services, possessions would be taken (on a rotating cyclical basis) of either the Up Fast, Up Slow, Down Fast, of Down Slow between nominated junctions, so that the PW Engineers could walk the track in daylight and fettle it as required. Obviously this meant a certain degree of flexibility was needed in the timetabling, as the possession site might be (say) Willesden Jn to Harrow on Monday, Harrow to Watford on Tuesday, Watford to Kings Langley on Wednesday, etc. So there was a "timetabled weave" allowance put into the off-peak services, allowing for one Fast - Slow - Fast weave to take place. I can't remember the exact value - it might have been 8 - 10 minutes in every train. Whilst the spotlight was on the track maintenance staff, the signallers really had to be on the top of their game too, as their "working norms" were changing from day to day, and the ability to foresee junction conflicts and regulate accordingly became a key skill. It took several years, and the rebuilding of the 86s and restriction of Roarers to 80 mph to give the WCML a chance of recovering to a decent standard of track. Arguably this only papered over the cracks until the West Coast Route Modernisation and Virgin Pendolinos came along, which included a full scale rebuilding of many long-damaged track sections..

For example, from 1983-84
1S47 07:45 Euston-Glasgow had [2] before Rugby, [2] before Stafford, [4] before Crewe
1S57 09:45 Euston-Glasgow had [2] before Rugby, [7] before Stafford, [7] before Crewe, 8 more minutes
The extra time went away starting with 1P25 15:45 Euston-Carlisle

 

[Magdalia]

In '74 all seven(!) of the down WCML trains which called at Oxenholme (only one of which went beyond Carlisle) had a reasonable connection onto the branch, but pretty much pot luck if travelling from the north.

One of these must be the morning Liverpool-Edinburgh, as it was on that, in this very year, that I experienced my first, and possibly only, Fail To Call. Passengers had started to assemble by the doors, went through at full speed, guard pulled it up about a mile beyond. No PA then. Stopped for about 20 minutes, then got going, guard came through to blandly say forgot to stop, change at Penrith and come back.

There were two morning trains from Liverpool, the 0748 to Edinburgh and the 0943 to Glasgow, the latter having an 0950 Manchester portion. There was also an 0753 Manchester-Glasgow and the 0810 from Birmingham with portions for both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The 0943 Liverpool-Glasgow called at all of Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith filling the gap between the 0732 Crewe-Carlisle and the 0900 from Euston. Apart from that the only intermediate stops between Preston and Carlisle were the 0748 Liverpool at Lancaster and the 0810 Birmingham at Oxenholme.

The 1241 Liverpool/1250 Manchester-Edinburgh also called at Lancaster and Oxenholme, so the latter had 3 trains to Scotland. After that it was only the 1200, 1500 and 1805 from Euston to Carlisle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2022 ==

I remember the 'old Newcastle Poole' - plus portion from Leeds, as a lengthy train of ageing 90mph SR Mk1 stock when virtually everything else on what we now know as Cross Country was LMR, ER or WR Mk2s or at worst commonwealth bogied Mark 1s.

That must be going back a long way!

The Newcastle-Poole was of course the descendant of the old Newcastle-Bournemouth via the Great Central which used maroon NER and green SR Mark I stock on alternate days.

Even in the mid 1970s I remember the Newcastle-Poole being Mark IIs, probably cascaded from the ECML when the aircon stock came in during 1971-73.

 

[Helvellyn]

A bit later than the OP's request but I've dug out the Summer 1990 InterCity Guide.

Monday to Friday Euston-Birmingham was every 30 minutes 06:40-19:40, then hourly until 23:40.

• Most xx:40 services all run through to Wolverhampton, but some don't (e.g. 11:40, 12:40) with some xx:10 services running through instead of or in addition to.
• Every third xx:40 runs through to Shrewsbury (07:40, 10:40, 13:40, 16:40, 19:40).
• However, the 15:40 also runs through to Shrewsbury but with a note that Telford and Shrewsbury are Standard Class only.

Saturday Euston-Birmingham was hourly 06:30-23:30, with some xx:00 departures thrown in.

• A mix of whether xx:30 or xx:00 services run through to Wolverhampton, but it's always one an hour minimum.
• Every third xx:30 runs through to Shrewsbury (07:30, 10:30, 13:30, 16:30, 19:30).
• However, the 15:30 also runs through to Shrewsbury but with a note that Telford and Shrewsbury are Standard Class only.
• There is also an 09:03 Euston-Shrewsbury that is pick-up only at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley and Wolverhampton! It's not marked as 'IC' in the timetable so I think this was the seasonal Pwllheli service that ran with a NSE 'Cobbler' set that was spare at a weekend. Must have been interesting seeing that on the board at Euston showing first stop Telford!
  • I assume that the reason that it wasn't shown as 'IC' is that whilst First Class accommodation would have been available no catering was provided (IC states this to be, 'Light food, hot & cold drinks', for all or part of the journey) and no reservations either.

Departures Up to London followed pretty much the same patterns, generally being:

• Mon-Sat - xx:25 or xx:55 from Wolverhampton; xx:18 or xx:48 from New Street, with a new exceptions.
  • The Birmingham Pullman (Up direction only) was an extra service at 07:40 from Birmingham New Street and calling only at Birmingham International.
• Departures from Shrewsbury were slightly more irregular than the 3-hourly Down services:
  • 07:06 (07:58 ex-Wolverhampton)
  • 09:24 (10:25 ex-Wolverhampton) - Standard Class only from Shrewsbury and Telford.
  • 11:32 (12:28 ex-Wolverhampton)
  • 14:29 (15:28 ex-Wolverhampton)
  • 17:02 (17:58 ex-Wolverhampton)
  • 19:59 (20:55 ex-Wolverhampton)
• What I assume is the corresponding Up working on a Saturday from Pwllheli is shown leaving Shrewsbury at 13:09 (not marked as IC), so I assume two sets were involved? Not sure if there was an early ECS working to Pwllheli that worked back to Euston (with the corresponding Down service returning ECS)? Given that I imagine Butlin's traffic was a big part of the traffic for this service I imagine they'd want a morning departure from Pwllheli to allow the chalets to be cleaned before the next lot of customer arrived in the late afternoon. (I don't think the remaining camps do Saturday changeovers anymore, it all being Friday or Monday to allow for weekend and mid-week breaks alongside full weeks).

 

[Magdalia]

• There is also an 09:03 Euston-Shrewsbury that is pick-up only at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley and Wolverhampton! It's not marked as 'IC' in the timetable so I think this was the seasonal Pwllheli service that ran with a NSE 'Cobbler' set that was spare at a weekend. Must have been interesting seeing that on the board at Euston showing first stop Telford!
  • I assume that the reason that it wasn't shown as 'IC' is that whilst First Class accommodation would have been available no catering was provided (IC states this to be, 'Light food, hot & cold drinks', for all or part of the journey) and no reservations either.
• What I assume is the corresponding Up working on a Saturday from Pwllheli is shown leaving Shrewsbury at 13:09 (not marked as IC), so I assume two sets were involved? Not sure if there was an early ECS working to Pwllheli that worked back to Euston (with the corresponding Down service returning ECS)? Given that I imagine Butlin's traffic was a big part of the traffic for this service I imagine they'd want a morning departure from Pwllheli to allow the chalets to be cleaned before the next lot of customer arrived in the late afternoon. (I don't think the remaining camps do Saturday changeovers anymore, it all being Friday or Monday to allow for weekend and mid-week breaks alongside full weeks).

The through trains to and from the Cambrian are not my area of expert knowledge.

But there were 2 in each direction in summer 1990: 2250 FO and 0903 SO to Pwllheli, 0932 and 1636 from Pwllheli. All were pick up only or set down only as appropriate at all stations Wolverhampton and south thereof.

I don't know how many "Cobbler" rakes there were in 1990 but two of them used to do the Saturday Birmingham-Yarmouth trains.

I think that 1990 was the last year for the through trains Euston-Pwllheli.

 

[Helvellyn]

Because Anglo-Scots services serving the North West have been mentioned, from the same 1990 InterCity Guide Down services were:

• 07:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 12:52 and calling at Watford, MKC, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 08:25 to Blackpool North (arr. 12:10 and calling at Watford, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston)
• 08:35 to Inverness, The Clansman (arr. 19:20 and calling at MKC, Coventry, B'ham Intl, B'ham New Steet, Crewe, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Edinburgh, then various points North) - Motorail to Edinburgh
• 09:25 to Carlisle (arr. 13:42 and calling at Watford, Rugby, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith) - Motorail to Carlisle
• 10:25 to Glasgow Central, The Royal Scot (arr. 15:08 and calling at Preston, Carlisle) - 09:25 from Euston arrives Carlisle 6 minutes before this train, allowing connections to Glasgow.
• 11:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 16:54 and calling at MKC, Stafford, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 12:25 to Blackpool North (arr. 15:47 and calling at MKC, Rugby, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston)
• 13:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 18:54 and calling at Watford, Nuneaton, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Carlisle)
• 14:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 19:39 and calling at MKC, Crewe, Preston, Oxenholme, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 15:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 20:44 and calling at Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 16:25 to Glasgow Central (arr. 21:24 and calling at Watford, WBQ, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 17:25 to Blackpool North, The Lancashire Pullman (arr. 20:43 and calling at Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston)
• 17:28 (FO) to Glasgow Central (arr. 22:50 and calling at Stafford, Preston, Oxenholme, Carlisle, Motherwell)
• 18:25 to Carlisle (arr. 22:37 and calling at Watford, Rugby, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith)
• 19:30 to Carlisle (arr. 23:47 and calling at MKC, Tamworth, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith)
• 21:05 to Blackpool North (arr. 00:39 and calling at Watford, MKC, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, WBQ, WNW, Preston)

Interesting that both the 14:25 and 17:28 (FO) services don't serve Lancaster but do serve Oxenholme.

(MKC - Milton Keynes Central / WBQ - Warrington Bank Quay / WNW - Wigan North Western)


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2022 ==

The through trains to and from the Cambrian are not my area of expert knowledge.

But there were 2 in each direction in summer 1990: 2250 FO and 0903 SO to Pwllheli, 0932 and 1636 from Pwllheli. All were pick up only or set down only as appropriate at all stations Wolverhampton and south thereof.

I don't know how many "Cobbler" rakes there were in 1990 but two of them used to do the Saturday Birmingham-Yarmouth trains.

Thanks for that. The 22:50 FO and 16:36 SO services definitely aren't in the summer 1990 InterCity Guide. Given that the Guide also omits that these are through services to/from Pwllheli it's even odder not to even show the other two as extra services between Shrewsbury and London.

 

[nw1]

The 0920 Liverpool-Penzance and 1023 Manchester-Plymouth were both long standing trains going back to at least 1973. They were descendants of old GWR trains via Hereford, though in those days the Manchester train went to Penzance and the Liverpool train went to Plymouth. What changed was the introduction of XC HSTs in 1982, the 1023 Manchester's path to Plymouth being taken by an HST from Newcastle. The same HST took the path of the old Newcastle-Poole which was retimed by about an hour.

Ah OK, that's interesting. This (the introduction of HSTs to XC in 1982) might explain at least partly why the XC timetables from the 70s and very early 80s look different to those that I personally remember, which is 1982/83 to some extent, and more strongly, 1983/84 to 1986/87.

For one thing the earlier XC Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool services from 1973 through to 1981 seem to be more regularly timed - indeed the 1979 version (this can be found in the Thomas Cook timetable on timetableworld.com) is pretty much perfect clockface most hours with Birmingham-Manchester and Birmingham-Liverpool alternating, and Stafford served the exact same time each hour for instance (xx28 northbound, xx30 southbound - only the 1355 ex-New St does not call). The perfect clockface had gone from Stafford by 1983/84 though services were still roughly the same time each hour (xx20 to xx30 in both directions, with some hours skipped).

 

[Cheshire Scot]

There were two morning trains from Liverpool, the 0748 to Edinburgh and the 0943 to Glasgow, the latter having an 0950 Manchester portion. There was also an 0753 Manchester-Glasgow and the 0810 from Birmingham with portions for both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The 0943 Liverpool-Glasgow called at all of Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith filling the gap between the 0732 Crewe-Carlisle and the 0900 from Euston. Apart from that the only intermediate stops between Preston and Carlisle were the 0748 Liverpool at Lancaster and the 0810 Birmingham at Oxenholme.

The 1241 Liverpool/1250 Manchester-Edinburgh also called at Lancaster and Oxenholme, so the latter had 3 trains to Scotland. After that it was only the 1200, 1500 and 1805 from Euston to Carlisle.

The 08.10 Birmingham was a Saturday only Oxenholme stop, but I had missed one of the Liv/Man trains so two SX trains to Scotland - odd though Liverpool and Manchester to the Lakes had not been identified as a significant market back then.

That must be going back a long way!

The Newcastle-Poole was of course the descendant of the old Newcastle-Bournemouth via the Great Central which used maroon NER and green SR Mark I stock on alternate days.

Even in the mid 1970s I remember the Newcastle-Poole being Mark IIs, probably cascaded from the ECML when the aircon stock came in during 1971-73.

Checking the marshalling books it was still Mk1 in 74 and 75 and went to Mk2 in the May 76 book

 

[nw1]

Checking the marshalling books it was still Mk1 in 74 and 75 and went to Mk2 in the May 76 book

Later, the Poole-Newcastle became one of the first on the Reading-Birmingham axis to go over to air-conditioned Mk-II stock: it was this in 1983/84 (at least mostly - though the actual rakes used did seem to include one or two random older Mk-II coaches too).