Northampton has flooded many times - including in 1998 and 1979 - so it's not a recent problem at all.
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Storm Bert Saturday 23rd November
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Northampton has flooded many times - including in 1998 and 1979 - so it's not a recent problem at all.
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While this is true, it also needs to be considered that often the service already has fallen apart and that the priority (subject to safety) needs to be getting stranded people "unstranded". Ideally there would be some way of distinguishing between people who are genuinely stranded and those who are just convinced that their journey really is necessary, but I'm not sure there is.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
It turned out to be a partial roof collapse in Outpatients
htwestern
Member
I had a horrible travel experience yesterday night.
Travelled from Cardiff to Yatton to visit my parents for the weekend on Friday and intended to travel back on Sunday at 3pm. The 14.57 was cancelled, I had the option of the 16:57 (2U24) or the 17:59 (2Z26), both direct to Cardiff.
Decided on the 17:59, which left Exeter (formed of 2x 800s) only a few minutes late and arrived at Taunton only 7 minutes late. It then sat there for another 78 minutes and managed to make it all the way up to Yatton without picking up much extra delay - I boarded at 19:26, 83 minutes late.
Only about 2 minutes north of Nailsea we got held at a red signal and the driver announced he was unable to get hold of the signaller to ask why we were being held.
About 20 mins later we're told that the line ahead is completely flooded and Network Rail are on their way to assess if the train could run through at a low speed, but this was a no-go.
I was following along using the Traksy website to see the signals, and in the time we were waiting a freight train (6Y44) had blocked the Up platform at Nailsea and Backwell:
Luckily, there were only 11 of us on board this 10-carriage IET, so the train manager brought us up to first class and we got free tea and biscuits whilst we waited.
We had to wait for the freight train to reverse out the way, past Yatton at least, where the next switchover is. It eventually reversed to the other side of Uphill Jn, near Weston-super-Mare, after all the preceding sections had been blocked.
At 21:20 we moved again, travelling the wrong direction along the Up line. We did not make calls at Nailsea or Yatton, primarily becuase the driver claimed that the automatic selective door operation was not configured for this wrong-way working, and also GWR did not want to leave stranded passengers at unstaffed stations. We continued along the wrong side until Worle Jn, where we moved on to the Weston loop. The train had to stop short of the level crossings at Hewish and St Georges to allow the barriers to be lowered manually.
The train finally reached Weston-s-Mare at 21:50, where it terminated. GWR staff at the station estimated a 2hr wait for taxis, and I was told it was unlikely I would get a taxi to take a fare that far. I abandoned my journey and got a lift home from a friend back to Yatton.
Monday morning no services at all so I was forced to drive over to Cardiff as I needed to be back here by 9. God knows if I'll get any compensation apart from my original ticket.
2.5 hours to travel -10 miles -- I think that's a new record of worst journey I've ever done.
Travelled from Cardiff to Yatton to visit my parents for the weekend on Friday and intended to travel back on Sunday at 3pm. The 14.57 was cancelled, I had the option of the 16:57 (2U24) or the 17:59 (2Z26), both direct to Cardiff.
Decided on the 17:59, which left Exeter (formed of 2x 800s) only a few minutes late and arrived at Taunton only 7 minutes late. It then sat there for another 78 minutes and managed to make it all the way up to Yatton without picking up much extra delay - I boarded at 19:26, 83 minutes late.
Only about 2 minutes north of Nailsea we got held at a red signal and the driver announced he was unable to get hold of the signaller to ask why we were being held.
About 20 mins later we're told that the line ahead is completely flooded and Network Rail are on their way to assess if the train could run through at a low speed, but this was a no-go.
I was following along using the Traksy website to see the signals, and in the time we were waiting a freight train (6Y44) had blocked the Up platform at Nailsea and Backwell:
Luckily, there were only 11 of us on board this 10-carriage IET, so the train manager brought us up to first class and we got free tea and biscuits whilst we waited.
We had to wait for the freight train to reverse out the way, past Yatton at least, where the next switchover is. It eventually reversed to the other side of Uphill Jn, near Weston-super-Mare, after all the preceding sections had been blocked.
At 21:20 we moved again, travelling the wrong direction along the Up line. We did not make calls at Nailsea or Yatton, primarily becuase the driver claimed that the automatic selective door operation was not configured for this wrong-way working, and also GWR did not want to leave stranded passengers at unstaffed stations. We continued along the wrong side until Worle Jn, where we moved on to the Weston loop. The train had to stop short of the level crossings at Hewish and St Georges to allow the barriers to be lowered manually.
The train finally reached Weston-s-Mare at 21:50, where it terminated. GWR staff at the station estimated a 2hr wait for taxis, and I was told it was unlikely I would get a taxi to take a fare that far. I abandoned my journey and got a lift home from a friend back to Yatton.
Monday morning no services at all so I was forced to drive over to Cardiff as I needed to be back here by 9. God knows if I'll get any compensation apart from my original ticket.
2.5 hours to travel -10 miles -- I think that's a new record of worst journey I've ever done.
it was Signal 2186
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trainophile
Established Member
It does sound like a nightmare, however what puzzles me is why you didn’t go for the 16:57 rather than leave it until the second train after your original cancelled one, thus making you more vulnerable to further disruption even later into the night?
However you probably had your reasons, and hindsight etc. etc…
SLC001
Member
Rather naive response. According to EA, this was worse than those and the basic problem remains that the water has to go somewhere. The rapid rise in water levels overstretched the storage areas hence the flooding. The flood defensive improvements have ensured that Northampton town centre has escaped the worst of it but who can say this is as bad as it will ever get?
The railways need to plan for this in terms of their response capability but the planners and Government are ultimately responsible.
dangie
Established Member
Of course with the perceived increase of high rainfall and flooding we appear to be getting nowadays, there is much talk of improving infrastructure and flood defences to help and alleviate problems to both the public and businesses.
This of course is necessary, but it can and will lead to simply moving the problem somewhere else. Water has that habit of flowing downhill, and if it encounters any barrier to its passage it will simply find itself another route. The whole cycle will therefore begin again.
This of course is necessary, but it can and will lead to simply moving the problem somewhere else. Water has that habit of flowing downhill, and if it encounters any barrier to its passage it will simply find itself another route. The whole cycle will therefore begin again.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
As I pointed out earlier, the highest water level at South Bridge last weekend was about a metre below the highest in 1998. However, South Bridge is after the confluence of several tributaries to the Nene and only one of them flows behind the station. One might conclude, therefore, that this one was particularly affected, much more so than the others
In connection with the new Northern ring road a new bridge has been built across the railway by Wilson's Farm. At the same time, and presumably in connection with it, there have been earthworks along the river all the way South to King's Heath. These seem to have removed the ox-bow lakes and raised the level of the flood plain (I might be mistaken about the latter, but there is a lot of spoil levelled off). Is it a coincidence that, on the first occasion of heavy rain after this work, Northampton station floods? I can remember floods around the area being common back to the 1950s but never when Northampton station was flooded to the current extent.
//
Curiously, looking at NRES;
Northampton departure board shows RRB but if you click on 'buy tickets' for a specific RRB departure it takes you to a screen which shows every train cancelled but no indication of R.R.B.s, so you are unable to buy tickets.
P.S. Northampton town centre never floods; it's on top of a hill. It's the Victorian terraced housing developments near river level at St James' and Far Cotton that have always been prone to flooding. Back in the year 1100 they knew the best place to build a settlement...
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anothertyke
Member
Does 'perceived' imply you are challenging the actuality? Network Rail have reports about the various climate and weather challenges and the increasing resilience gap. Ultimately it is about (a) money (b) gaining public acceptance that not every incident can be cost-effectively mitigated and (c) good comms when there is disruption.
There are some forms of intervention such as increasing the storage capacity at the top of the catchments which do not just move the problem from one place to another. Who should spend the money and on whose budget is a big question when many agencies have a stake in what happens.
Phil56
Member
No doubt that flooding, tree falls, landslides are going to continue to happen.
Yes, there needs to be better maintenance and defences put in place, but that will take years if not decades.
What also needs to be done alongside is far better communications and far better contingency planning among control room staff, signallers, station staff, helpline staff, etc., so that when the inevitable happens, the entire industry performs better to keep passengers informed with REAL information as to which trains are running, route changes, etc. in a timely manner.
At the moment, we still have the situation of "skeleton" staff on helplines, twitter, etc in the evenings and weekends, maybe also in control rooms, so whilst "problems" that happen at lunchtime on a Tuesday can be pretty well managed and communicated, if the same thing happens at lunchtime on a Sunday, the industry response is many times worse.
I was stuck in it on Sunday. The station announcer at Bath hadn't a clue and was telling people over the tannoy complete garbage. I only got home that day because I was on the train apps, diagrams, etc., so could work it out myself which trains were running, which lines were closed, etc. At first, I believed and followed the tannoy man's instruction and found myself (along with a train load of others) stranded at a station waiting for a train that had been cancelled before the tannoy man told us to go there! That's what spurred me on to work out myself what was happening via the apps, with the help of my son who was at home also looking at the apps and tracing the few trains that were running.
It's simply not acceptable that communication within the railway industry is so bad that a random passenger using apps can have a better idea of the trains running that a station announcer!
As it was, my train was never on any station departure boards. Heaven knows how they managed that. No wonder the station announcer didn't know it was coming. It wasn't on the boards at the station, nothing at all, not even showing as cancelled. People were genuinely surprised when it pulled into the station. I knew it was coming from the app diagram, but only those within talking distance of me knew.
That same thing happened a while ago when I was booked on to the "first" train of the day on a Sunday from Barrow southbound boarding at Carnforth. The day before I checked the ticket app and the train had disappeared, not marked as cancelled, but just not on the system. I assumed it was cancelled, so planned to drive instead, I phoned the helpline and they just checked the system and confirmed there was no train and couldn't give any reasons nor details as to where it had disappeared. On the Sunday morning, I just thought I'd check the app to make sure it wasn't running - nothing on the station departure boards, but on the tracking diagram app, there it was - set off on time, not showing as empty stock, so I followed it on the app for a while and then took a punt and decided to go to Carnforth to try and get on it. It wasn't on the Carnforth departure screens, so I half expected it to pass through without stopping, but, it turned up, doors opened, guard got out, all as usual, I asked him just for confirmation that it was running as normal and he confirmed it was - I pointed out it wasn't on the screens and he just rolled his eyes and said "it happens sometimes", so not really bothered!
As I say, yes, there'll be problems and even billions won't stop anything bad happening, but the industry itself needs to improve it's systems, management, communications, etc. It's really not the fact that there are floods etc that causes the passengers annoyance and to lose faith in the system, it's the poor communication and often incorrect information that really annoys and stresses people and puts them off using the railways!
Yes, there needs to be better maintenance and defences put in place, but that will take years if not decades.
What also needs to be done alongside is far better communications and far better contingency planning among control room staff, signallers, station staff, helpline staff, etc., so that when the inevitable happens, the entire industry performs better to keep passengers informed with REAL information as to which trains are running, route changes, etc. in a timely manner.
At the moment, we still have the situation of "skeleton" staff on helplines, twitter, etc in the evenings and weekends, maybe also in control rooms, so whilst "problems" that happen at lunchtime on a Tuesday can be pretty well managed and communicated, if the same thing happens at lunchtime on a Sunday, the industry response is many times worse.
I was stuck in it on Sunday. The station announcer at Bath hadn't a clue and was telling people over the tannoy complete garbage. I only got home that day because I was on the train apps, diagrams, etc., so could work it out myself which trains were running, which lines were closed, etc. At first, I believed and followed the tannoy man's instruction and found myself (along with a train load of others) stranded at a station waiting for a train that had been cancelled before the tannoy man told us to go there! That's what spurred me on to work out myself what was happening via the apps, with the help of my son who was at home also looking at the apps and tracing the few trains that were running.
It's simply not acceptable that communication within the railway industry is so bad that a random passenger using apps can have a better idea of the trains running that a station announcer!
As it was, my train was never on any station departure boards. Heaven knows how they managed that. No wonder the station announcer didn't know it was coming. It wasn't on the boards at the station, nothing at all, not even showing as cancelled. People were genuinely surprised when it pulled into the station. I knew it was coming from the app diagram, but only those within talking distance of me knew.
That same thing happened a while ago when I was booked on to the "first" train of the day on a Sunday from Barrow southbound boarding at Carnforth. The day before I checked the ticket app and the train had disappeared, not marked as cancelled, but just not on the system. I assumed it was cancelled, so planned to drive instead, I phoned the helpline and they just checked the system and confirmed there was no train and couldn't give any reasons nor details as to where it had disappeared. On the Sunday morning, I just thought I'd check the app to make sure it wasn't running - nothing on the station departure boards, but on the tracking diagram app, there it was - set off on time, not showing as empty stock, so I followed it on the app for a while and then took a punt and decided to go to Carnforth to try and get on it. It wasn't on the Carnforth departure screens, so I half expected it to pass through without stopping, but, it turned up, doors opened, guard got out, all as usual, I asked him just for confirmation that it was running as normal and he confirmed it was - I pointed out it wasn't on the screens and he just rolled his eyes and said "it happens sometimes", so not really bothered!
As I say, yes, there'll be problems and even billions won't stop anything bad happening, but the industry itself needs to improve it's systems, management, communications, etc. It's really not the fact that there are floods etc that causes the passengers annoyance and to lose faith in the system, it's the poor communication and often incorrect information that really annoys and stresses people and puts them off using the railways!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In particular ask the "5 whys" of problem (root cause) management and tell people the root cause. "A late notice change to the timetable" is not useful information - WHY was there a late notice change to the timetable? In this case, the reason was flooding.
OhNoAPacer
Member
On the way to Brixworth tip yesterday what I noticed was that whilst the amount of flooding of Kingsthorpe meadow was what would be expected there was a strong flow of water into the meadows through a culvert under the road leading to the new roundabout near the windhover pub.
I suspect you are correct that the building of that road has altered the characteristics of the flood plain.
Mikey C
Established Member
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Having shuttled between Network Rail, LNER, Northern and TPE staff on Saturday at Leeds, the fragmentation of the franchise system does make things a lot harder when there are major problems.
SLC001
Member
Looking upstream from Northampton, Upton Park and the Mill for example, the flooding is nowhere near as bad as it has been. The flood plain designed to accommodate the flood water was nowhere near full! Clearly the issue is nearer Northampton town centre possibly (probably?) caused by the tributaries into the Nene which is really why there needs to be an investigation as to what went wrong. Upstream from Upton Mill, the precautions would appear to have been adequate so again we are looking at poor planning and / or failure to ensure ditches and streams are kept clear especially during building work of which there has been an awful lot in or around Northampton. I know from personal experience how difficult it is to keep ditches and culverts clear let alone for organisations to understand the need to keep them clear especially when there is an attitude of its not our responsibility rather than accepting there is a problem and doing something about it.
There has of course been other areas of local flooding but again, I would suspect failure to keep ditches and culverts clear may be the problem - and possibly local developments.
There has of course been other areas of local flooding but again, I would suspect failure to keep ditches and culverts clear may be the problem - and possibly local developments.
dangie
Established Member
The online Cambridge Dictionary says ‘perceived’ means:
To see something or someone, or to notice something that is obvious:
Why do you think I’m challenging its actuality?
Phil56
Member
Along with guaranteed acceptance of tickets on alternative services at the earliest stages of any kind of disruption. When you're stressed about whether trains are running at all along your route, the last thing you need to start worrying about is being "caught" using your ticket on the "wrong coloured" train, especially when help lines/help desks and station platform staff can't tell you whether or not ticket acceptance has been agreed.
I think once a train is cancelled or delayed by say an hour or more, then guaranteed ticket acceptance on other operators should be automatic.
If they can't do that, then the announcements should clearly tell people whether ticket acceptance has been agreed or not.
As it stands, it's very hard to find out and railway staff seem to be in the dark too!
Agree with that. Now that so many TOCs are working directly for the government, via the DOT or whatever, there needs to be improved integration etc., as frankly, we're never going back to private/independent TOCS given the political direction of travel. Things like arguing about ticket acceptance and delay compensation between governmental funded/controlled TOCS is just playing with numbers on spreadsheets and adds no improvement to either customer service nor industry efficiency.
I think you've got it in one. The water used to get held up on the flood plain north of the town and released slowly. I drive past Brampton Crossing regularly and yes, the northern arm of the River Nene there has been straightened as part of the new by-pass and the inevitable housing development. The banks have also been built up, presumably to protect those new houses nearest the river. Result... the water reaches the town more quickly and at a faster rate. Some gets held up by the Mill Lane bridge, but the first big barrier is Westbridge - right next to the station.
anothertyke
Member
OK thanks I'm reassured. In my little corner of the universe people sometimes distinguish between what is believed to be the case and what is actually the case. My bad.
Perception and actuality are not the same.
Perception is what someone sees, is subjective, and is influenced by culture, sensory processes and cognitive interpretation. Actuality is objective, in this case measured rainfall as recorded in weather statistics.
The challenge is to allow the water to flow a place where it does not do damage, and may actually be beneficial. This has been done successfully in the Fens for more than 300 years, with water being stored in the Welney Washes between the Old and New Bedford rivers.
It is frustrating that all of that flood water could be filling up a reservoir if only someone had got round to building it.
On a smaller scale, most modern housing developments now have sink ponds to capture surface runoff and store it where it does not do damage.
New roads increase surface runoff, and I would be surprised of the new road in Northampton was built without sink ponds, but maybe the amount of rainfall from Storm Bert exceeded the maximum amount foreseen when the road was designed? The floods give the perception of that but maybe someone local knows the actuality.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Indeed this has been done; there are sink ponds, visible from the railway. near the new road.
It's downstream of this, on the former flood plain, where other work has taken place - including, from what I can see from the train, making the river more direct. This might be part of housing development planned in conjunction with the new road.
As a child I walked across the flood plain with my parents many times, walking from Kingsthorpe to Harlestone Firs and back. My lockdown exercise took the form of re-visiting those walks but, looking from the train - even thought there's a right of way foot crossing over the Rugby line - everything seems to have been fenched and barriered off, no trace of the footbridge over a side stream and the area being 'landscaped' consists of piles of deep mud.
My earliest childhood memory is walking down to the crossing of the Harborouigh line and seeing the whole valley flooded, with only the two railway lines above water on their embankments. I think this must have been 1953, although it could possibly have been 1954 or 55. 1953 was the year of floods much more disastrous than the present ones - over 300 people died, main lines washed away. Bad year for weather - the B.R. ferry M.V. Princess Victoria also sank in a storm that year with loss of over 100 lives.
Edit; regarding diverting excess water into a reservoir; about 1953 the Mid Northamptonshire Water Board built a massive new reservoir at Pitsford, making use of a Nene tributary and, even though Northampton has increased massively in population since we rarely have water rationing. This was paid for out of rates, of course; but, once M.N.W.B. was absorbed by Anglia(n) Water we then had to pay high water rates for the less-enlighted areas to catch up.
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SLC001
Member
No trains running tomorrow in Northampton. More rain is forecast on Wednesday.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Thanks.
Do you know whether any of the 350s stabled around the station have been damaged? I make it about 10 involved.
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
Bert has done his worst on the Heathfield Branch in Devon - the stub of former Moretonhampstead and Teign Valley lines. Used in the recent past for timber traffic from Teigngrace, but the damage looks to be pretty terminal.
Heathfield Branch
Heathfield Branch
SLC001
Member
I cannot say. I was interested in an itv news report that quoted locals saying that they believe drains were blocked as a result of HS2 work. As I understand it there has been a lot of offloading of aggregate and sand at the depot near the station in connection with HS2 and it is claimed spilt material has been washed into the drains, blocking them. HS2 deny it is their responsibility and the council are too busy to respond. Typical, admit nothing, but it feels a feasible explanation.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Could be; but there's also been a lot of tipper movements in connection with the massive new rail freight terminal, not sure whether that used material from the aggregate depot, too. But the freight terminal is a lot closer than HS2 and I thought that the latter was mostly supplied from Banbury.
Blaming HS2 is a new one; makes a change from Brexit/Covid/Ukraine
Wonder if it will catch on.Nothing until Saturday now, according to the NRE disruption page!
SLC001
Member
Not surprising. There is a lot of equipment and ballast to check and resources will have been stretched. At least the replacement buses can get through now.
87015
Established Member
Except for the movements already taking place that is-
Realtime Trains | 5C01 1900 Northampton to Camden C.S.D. | 26/11/2024
Real-time train running information for 5C01 1900 departure from Northampton to Camden C.S.D. on 26/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
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