Storm Doris Thursday 23rd - Major disruption on some routes

[AlanFry1]

Absolute disgraceful communication between GA/LO and users on twitter pages, websites etc. They were advertising minor delays between LST and SVS last night, when no trains had run for 5 hours prior. Caused animalistic chaos at LST.

 

[jon0844]

Just mocked one up using the supplied TTS voice on a Mac and it sounded decent enough - a *bit* odd but would certainly work.

I don't know if TfL does it, but for place names on some SatNav units, there's a proper (displayed) name and a pronounced name (to improve the speech) in the data - or at least an option (it may not be implemented for everywhere).

A simple look up table could then make it so anything sounding a bit off is automatically corrected.

In time, you'd have near perfect speech that I argue a lot of people wouldn't even know was text to speech, at least until realising that each repeated announcement sounded identical!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it's improved massively over time and will continue to do so to the point you genuinely will find it hard to know on something like a station announcement.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, it's improved massively over time and will continue to do so to the point you genuinely will find it hard to know on something like a station announcement.

Given it's just software, I wonder why TfL doesn't just upgrade its own system? The announcements aren't as bad as day one, but still way short of what you'd expect now.

Look at any phone with Android, iOS or Windows on it. Look at Google Home, Alexa (Amazon Echo), Siri, Cortana etc.

All extremely clear, and capable of saying anything (and in multiple languages too - another benefit perhaps not fully appreciated). Even real time translations are vastly improved these days, so you could even have one single announcement keyed in and translated, accurately, by itself.

 

[northwichcat]

Mid-Cheshire line yesterday:

08:04 Chester to Manchester cancelled
10:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled between Northwich and Manchester
11:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled
12:41 STP Altrincham and Manchester service operated
12:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled
13:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled between Chester and Knutsford
14:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled between Chester and Knutsford
15:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled
16:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled
18:04 Chester to Manchester cancelled
19:04 Chester to Manchester cancelled
20:04 Chester to Manchester cancelled between Chester and Greenbank
21:00 STP Greenbank to Manchester service operated
21:50 STP Greenbank to Manchester service operated
21:33 Chester to Manchester cancelled between Chester and Greenbank and ran 46 minutes late.
22:48 Chester to Manchester cancelled.

A replacement bus that Northern said would run between Chester and Altrincham didn't appear to turn up either.

06:18 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Stockport and Chester
11:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Altrincham and Chester
12:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Altrincham and Chester
13:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
14:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
15:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
16:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
16:57 Stockport to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester
17:09 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Delamere and Chester after getting 61 minutes behind schedule
17:58 Stockport to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester
18:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester after getting 83 minutes behind schedule
19:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester
20:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
21:22 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester
22:17 Manchester to Chester cancelled
23:22 Manchester to Chester cancelled between Greenbank and Chester

 

[Deepgreen]

Ah, like they did at Stevenage one time and literally every screen changed to that. No info on ANYTHING whatsoever.

Surely that's a feature for the most extreme emergencies, like an evacuation of the station or something.

GTR did say last time that it was an error and someone had (I got the gist as) entered a message and set the wrong type/priority.

Exactly - every time this happens it is written off as a one-time error/failure - repeatedly! The railway simply does not learn from its mistakes, despite the ludicrous stock responses we receive from TOCs about how seriously they take the issue of good information.

 

[Deepgreen]

Glib answer is because it's the UK. More seriously my guess would be the amount of trees down and general debris coupled with the fact there are probably less staff available with the appropriate kit to clear obstructions. No doubt others with more knowledge will comment soon.

It's very simple - the UK's policies dictate that many mature trees by the railway can only be felled or severely lopped with special permission (and that is generally a good thing in my opinion). In addition, the vast bulk of the UK only experiences snow as a rarity, and therefore there is no business case for investing in equipment to be available at short notice/locally to clear it, nor for the extra expense of rolling stock that can take it in its stride.

What could be done, however, is to take real time information provision much more seriously and equip the railway with dedicated, literate people who can respond to the latest scenarios usefully. This includes, by the way, the sensible analysis of repeated complaints such as mine about Reigate's woeful information regime (last night's shambles was merely a repeat of the same sort of rubbish that is given to us in normal circumstances) so that such local issues are actually addressed.

It is the norm simply to write off poor information in times of disruption as exceptional - it is not; it's exactly when good information is particularly necessary, and when it is usually actually available but not disseminated properly.

 

[Dai Corner]

For me, the communication breakdown was internet sites. NRE was falling over with a non working journey planner and Southeastern's site was totally dead. In view of how much information these sites can get out to a large number of people it would be good to see them better capable of handling heavier loading.

It's quite straightforward for the facility hosting a website to provide additional resources, especially if the extra traffic can be predicted in advance. Of course they have to be asked to do so and paid.

 

[LowLevel]

The problem you have is that real time info in these events is immediately out of date.

My work phone was warbling away all day yesterday with updates but no sooner had they come out it was along the lines of 'here's another tree. A horse stable is on the line (really). And another ten trees. And two are on fire. X station roof has blown off. X buildings roof is sat on the overheads, the planned extra train is now cancelled because the driver has crashed into a tree on another train' and so on and so on.

My TOC resourced extra crews for yesterday (I was asked but turned them down flat I'm afraid, not for all the tea in China!) but when you're getting trains speared by trees (some badly damaged) there's not a huge amount you can do.

If you're going to travel in events like this then you have to accept you're probably going to sit around for a long time and you might not get where you want to be at all.

 

[infobleep]

As I see it, the genuine question you asked was why the British Rail network fails to cope with bad weather when other countries do.

My experience is that other countries suffer similar problems to us. (I have no experience of Scandinavia, so can only go on personal experiences).
As an example, the Dutch network was heavily affected yesterday with lots of cancellations due to the storm. NS issued a not to travel/expect disruption alert on Wednesday evening.

The disruption yesterday was probably one of the worst since storms in autumn 2001. My recollection is that there were 2 bad days, with the British network effectively shutting down on the Monday (I am happy for someone to correct me on this or highlight more recent ones - possibly the London bombings as this had a major affect on the London terminals that day).
That weekend I was attempting to travel from Rotterdam to Munich, departing about 0830 on Sunday with planned arrival of 1830. The journey was a nightmare due to high winds and trees on the line in various places on both the Dutch and German networks, with an eventual arrival of 0300 on the Monday morning.
The German and Dutch networks suffer in snow as well. December 2009 - when the Channel Tunnel was shut (snow), Dutch network closed down for a day or December 2010 - delayed 3 hours on a 2 hour journey from Munich to Salzburg, again a result of snow (in an area that gets a lot of it).

One of the reasons that things went so bad yesterday was due to the number of obstructions on the line(s) that needed removing. The unfortunate thing is that staff are never in the right place at the right time, or are dealing with another incident. Staffing levels in the rail industry are just about adequate for normal operation, but when there is disruption on this scale they become stretched.
Other issues faced were damaged station buildings, interruptions to power supplies (UK power as opposed to OLE), trees falling onto the overheads disabling electric traction.
TOCs put in contingency plans when these happen, but with all the will in the world they are not a 2 minute job to implement.
Of course yesterday, plans were put in but then the 'open' sections of line were hit by more debris throwing these into disarray and it becomes a creeping death scenario.

Or in the case of GTR they announced a contingency plan but didn't implement it or tell people it wasn't being implemented. I'm referring to the buses at Cambridge that the Web Site said were Evington provides but actually were not.

 

[infobleep]

The problem you have is that real time info in these events is immediately out of date.

My work phone was warbling away all day yesterday with updates but no sooner had they come out it was along the lines of 'here's another tree. A horse stable is on the line (really). And another ten trees. And two are on fire. X station roof has blown off. X buildings roof is sat on the overheads, the planned extra train is now cancelled because the driver has crashed into a tree on another train' and so on and so on.

My TOC resourced extra crews for yesterday (I was asked but turned them down flat I'm afraid, not for all the tea in China!) but when you're getting trains speared by trees (some badly damaged) there's not a huge amount you can do.

If you're going to travel in events like this then you have to accept you're probably going to sit around for a long time and you might not get where you want to be at all.

So how does it get to a situation where a Web Site says buses are being provided but when you get to the station they are not?

Is it simply the case the buses couldn't get through? Was anyone finding out why the buses were not turning up and updating the Web Site accordingly. I know things keep changing but sometimes messages read like gopsal.

 

[philjo]

Shed on the line yesterday!

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEUS/status/834894771013419008

 

[Deepgreen]

The problem you have is that real time info in these events is immediately out of date.

My work phone was warbling away all day yesterday with updates but no sooner had they come out it was along the lines of 'here's another tree. A horse stable is on the line (really). And another ten trees. And two are on fire. X station roof has blown off. X buildings roof is sat on the overheads, the planned extra train is now cancelled because the driver has crashed into a tree on another train' and so on and so on.

My TOC resourced extra crews for yesterday (I was asked but turned them down flat I'm afraid, not for all the tea in China!) but when you're getting trains speared by trees (some badly damaged) there's not a huge amount you can do.

If you're going to travel in events like this then you have to accept you're probably going to sit around for a long time and you might not get where you want to be at all.

Doesn't excuse the complete abandonment of train information at places like Blackfriars where some trains were running, including turn-backs, but with not a single screen showing what trains they were! Sporadic live announcements when it would/should have been perfectly simple to show train details on the screens is simply not good enough.

 

[Deepgreen]

Shed on the line yesterday!

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEUS/status/834894771013419008

Class 66s have their place!

 

[PHILIPE]

Re info posted yesterday from ATW, the Wrexham to Bidston service has been re-instated. Blaenau Ffestiniog expected to resume on Monday but the HOWL has no service until the end of play today.

 

[QueensCurve]

You'll probably start hearing the phrase "Weather Bomb" which is a media name they made up to make a winter storm sound more severe than it is. It's an extrapolation of a meteorological phrase used when an area of low pressure intensifies quickly and the pressure is said to "bomb". It's nothing new.

I do wish they wouldn't make up these terms.

• There is a "bitten piece" of rain, but who bites it>?
• "Grass frost" seems to be a thing now, we no longer have "ground frost"
• There are "more organised areas of rain" who is organising thiem?

Meanwhile rarely do we get to see a synoptic chart which would enable us to make our own judgements about the weather and the uncertainty surrounding it.

 

[tsr]

I do wish they wouldn't make up these terms.

• There is a "bitten piece" of rain, but who bites it>?
• "Grass frost" seems to be a thing now, we no longer have "ground frost"
• There are "more organised areas of rain" who is organising thiem?

Meanwhile rarely do we get to see a synoptic chart which would enable us to make our own judgements about the weather and the uncertainty surrounding it.

Weather synoptics and their discussion are usually the preserve of dedicated web forums and suchlike. If you want the full technical terminology I recommend you visit somewhere like the Netweather Forums - you'll be able to be pedantic about terminology and view commentary on charts to your heart's content!

I'm not sure I've heard the "bitten piece of rain" one before though...

 

[notverydeep]

RTT was showing trains as running as normal on GN and some delays for Virgin trains.

I actually told someone it seemed King's Cross was normal, but it seems that this wasn't true.

I find that RTT is best supplemented with the excellent OpenTrainTimes map of the ECML from King's Cross to Hitchin: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1. RTT is prone to showing trains as expected at their correct time, but click through to the train itself and you see that it hasn't any actual reports at all, just expected times - all the way from origin to destination - even though the times are in the past. In reality the is cancelled, but is never marked as such. I assume this is because not all of the data on what is cancelled gets entered into the database from where RTT draws its data. Look back at the same train the following day and it will show cancelled.

As another poster noted, I too got an automated email (at about 16:50) from GTR saying that there was no reported disruption, when clearly there was chaos. RTT reinforced this false sense of security unless you delved into the data, but you could very clearly see the severe disruption on the map, which actually marked those lines and blocks that were obstructed and there were quite a few. In one case (on the down slow at Welham Green), where a train headcode would be there was the word TREE!

My criticism of GTR is the evening service. Most of the line blockages were dealt with - as was predicted - by 18:00. I deliberately left work much later than this and wasn't expecting things to be back to normal (I do work in the rail industry and do appreciate the problems), but even against an expectation of significant disruption through to the close of traffic, the service and information to passengers after that was woeful.

I managed to get the one train operating up to Welwyn Garden City just after 22:00, which turned up at Finsbury Park more or less unannounced, but we were passed by no fewer than four VTEC services heading north! Yet they were the ones who had advised you not to travel - GTR said no such thing (and had run a near normal AM peak). Only one more train ran to Welwyn Garden City after this and nothing.

If VTEC were doing their best, GTR had clearly given up by 20:00. They managed to dispatch a few random services north to Peterborough or King's Lynn - all unthinkingly abiding by their booked limited stopping patterns, despite passing some stations non stop, when no other services were run to cover these later than 20:00. Basically it was far easier to get from London to Newcastle or Leeds yesterday evening than to Knebworth.

 

[LowLevel]

Doesn't excuse the complete abandonment of train information at places like Blackfriars where some trains were running, including turn-backs, but with not a single screen showing what trains they were! Sporadic live announcements when it would/should have been perfectly simple to show train details on the screens is simply not good enough.

One thing that hasn't helped, I think, with the advent of the Darwin system and centralised control of CIS/auto announcers has been the removal of the staff who used to look after them locally and keep them somewhat up to date - the current automated systems are notoriously poor at keeping track of ad hoc adjustments, platform alterations etc.

Where I used to work following the removal of the announcer you had to take one of the platform staff or the supervisor away from everything else they have to do to put the CIS under manual control. Before the announcer was either in the box or under easy contact with it, now the computer isn't clever enough to keep up with what is occurring in advance.

Not an excuse by the way, more an equally frustrated railwayman who dislikes the way technology has if anything made disruption worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that hasn't helped, I think, with the advent of the Darwin system and centralised control of CIS/auto announcers has been the removal of the staff who used to look after them locally and keep them somewhat up to date - the current automated systems are notoriously poor at keeping track of ad hoc adjustments, platform alterations etc.

Well, that's pretty poor design. If RTT has the data, so could a platform screen (though admittedly it would be wise for it not to show a platform number until it "goes bold").

 

[Bletchleyite]

If VTEC were doing their best, GTR had clearly given up by 20:00. They managed to dispatch a few random services north to Peterborough or King's Lynn - all unthinkingly abiding by their booked limited stopping patterns, despite passing some stations non stop, when no other services were run to cover these later than 20:00. Basically it was far easier to get from London to Newcastle or Leeds yesterday evening than to Knebworth.

Wouldn't it have simply made sense to run everything (for GTR) all stations on the slow lines? By then anyone had given up on getting anywhere for a particular time, and just wanted to get home at some vaguely reasonable bedtime.

 

[mtmikethom]

I must praise Greater Anglia yesterday afternoon, with the overhead problems between Ipswich & Norwich they used their two diesel loco 3 carriage sets and a diesel unit to run up to Colchester, praise where it's due.

 

[GW43125]

I find that RTT is best supplemented with the excellent OpenTrainTimes map of the ECML from King's Cross to Hitchin: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1.

www.traksy.uk/live is also an excellent live maps site, with CCF-style delays too.

 

[jon0844]

I find that RTT is best supplemented with the excellent OpenTrainTimes map of the ECML from King's Cross to Hitchin: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1. RTT is prone to showing trains as expected at their correct time, but click through to the train itself and you see that it hasn't any actual reports at all, just expected times - all the way from origin to destination - even though the times are in the past. In reality the is cancelled, but is never marked as such. I assume this is because not all of the data on what is cancelled gets entered into the database from where RTT draws its data. Look back at the same train the following day and it will show cancelled.

It was the above site that showed me things weren't moving and there were stops on the line. Very useful to have as a bookmark!

 

[vrbarreto]

I have heard of at least four widely spaced wires damage this morning - no idea if any or all are weather-related. Tree down on the "main" (according to radio) Reading to Guildford line (perhaps the other Reading to Guildford routes are still OK!?).

The OBS on my Redhill to Victoria train this morning claimed that delays were occurring owing to one platform at East Croydon being out of use. RTT, however, shows all platforms having normal regular use.

I was caught up in the overhead wires down episode yesterday.. The train got just north of Elstree before it stopped.. We were revered back into Elstree and Borehamwood and the staff there told people to catch a taxi to wherever they were going and then claim the fare back from Thameslink (they handed out forms). I was under the impression that you could only claim back the delay repay to the value of your ticket?

One lady who seems to have been stuck going South caught a taxi to Gatwick at £70.

Getting back was fun with having to catch the bus to Luton Airport and wait in the queue for an hour and a half for the 737 greenline whilst fighting off those who didn't know the meaning of the word 'queue'. The staff at Parkway were as always pretty helpful..

 

[gavin]

An apology from SWT

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/d...february/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, that's pretty poor design. If RTT has the data, so could a platform screen (though admittedly it would be wise for it not to show a platform number until it "goes bold").

My thoughts exactly!

 

[NROP]

I find that RTT is best supplemented with the excellent OpenTrainTimes map of the ECML from King's Cross to Hitchin: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1. RTT is prone to showing trains as expected at their correct time, but click through to the train itself and you see that it hasn't any actual reports at all, just expected times - all the way from origin to destination - even though the times are in the past. In reality the is cancelled, but is never marked as such. I assume this is because not all of the data on what is cancelled gets entered into the database from where RTT draws its data. Look back at the same train the following day and it will show cancelled.

That website is superb! thanks for making me aware of it

 

[infobleep]

Shed on the line yesterday!

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEUS/status/834894771013419008

That must have been a shed load of fun to deal with. I'll get my coat....

 

[infobleep]

An apology from SWT

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/d...february/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

That's how to write a message and ignore something major. Before it was known the storm would affect South West Trains, there was a known track defect at Raynes Park on the fast line to London. It meant cancellations and delays. It occurred all day regardless of the weather.

I feel it should have been mentioned. That aside, it is a well written apology. Not that I feel one should apologise for the weather, solely if they don't provide information.

Has any other company issued apologies yet? Are GTR likely to?