Strange Formations

[shyanthony]

Hey folks, I wasn't sure if there was already a thread to see whether anyone else has been on bizarre formations of passenger trains across the UK rail network. I seem to be on a Norwich "express" operated by an trio of 755's forming 11 cars???

Are there any others that people have travelled on.

Regards

 

[306024]

The 755s are a bit odd but that's the planned formation. They're pretty quick too.

I'll give you 3 x class 26 locos with two Mk1 coaches from Georgemas Jn to Wick for starters. Obviously a few years ago.

 

[Clansman]

A 170 sandwiched between 2 x 158s working ScotRail's only booked 7-car DMU service, which ran from Aberdeen to Inverurie (dropping the rear set before continuing to Inverness) in the evening peaks until about 2017/2018.

 

[Sun Chariot]

3 x class 26 locos with two Mk1 coaches from Georgemas Jn to Wuck

Fantastic It trumps the 2x 37/0 hauling a class 108 DMU (failed) out of Cardiff, which I saw 1990-ish (a photo is in my box of 35mm prints).

Also early 1990s, I used to like the 1st gen DMU variations formed by Thames Trains. A personal favourite: L408 was 104 DMBS + 101 TCL + 117 DMS.

 

[Kite159]

Would something like a 158+150+153+153 working a Sunday morning service from Crewe towards Holyhead count, although the 150 + 153s were detached at Chester.

Or around 2006 time there was a late night service from Nottingham to Derby which would be a mix of sprinters as it was a positioning move to reach Derby for overnight servicing

 

[YorksLad12]

I was on Wakefield Kirkgate P2 for an event when a three-car train pulled in to P1 doing the Huddersfield-Westgate shuttle (so we're talking nearly 10 years ago).

It was a 3x153. Once I realised, I got our photographer to get a shot. Much more interesting than the event we were there to facilitate...

 

[Parallel]

You used to get some excellent Sprinter combinations to Weymouth in summer - I saw a 153 + 150 + 158 once!

Maybe not strange but GWR used to operate a 6 car pacer from Exeter to Paignton and return for school traffic.

 

[MCR247]

I remember in around 2005 getting the first train of the day from Nottingham to Lincoln formed of 153+153+158+170. Made more interesting by the fact the 158 was an exTPE 3 car and the 170 was ex MML. Sadly, everything except the 153s were locked OOU. The front 153 also refused to couple to the other 153 for a good half an hour so we had a late start too! Good times

 

[nw1]

The Southern Region in slam-door times were famous for these. Theoretically you could have got 4 classes in one 12 coach train (e.g. 4CIG/CEP + 4VEP + 2HAP + 2EPB). Not sure if that was ever diagrammed, but there were certainly various combinations of three of those four classes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One of the evening peak Calder Valley via Dewsbury services around 8 years ago was regularly formed of 158+142. The 142 would come ECS from Holbeck and begin boarding, with almost everyone cramming on... those of us "in the know" knew to hold back until the 158 arrived from the inbound service and attached to the front.
Back in the early to mid 1990s there was a Calder Valley service formed of 158+141.

 

[Thornaby 37]

Four or five classes of first generation DMUs in the same formation were once commonplace on the North Wales coast on summer Saturdays when some of the trains could be up to 12 coaches [classes 100, 101, 104, 108 and 120, and possibly other classes were regularly seen on this route]

 

[The exile]

4 BB67000s (or whatever the standard motive power was) heading up the Paris - Calais boat train in 1986 - only one still working.
The other one, which I never actually rode, was the Wiesbaden City in the late 1980s. 1 2nd and 1 1st most recent IC stock in the brand new livery sandwiched between class 141s in the same - all just to cross the river between Mainz and Wiesbaden. The IC supplement was higher than the fare.

 

[dk1]

755s have been operating Norwich-Liverpool St services for around 18mths now. There were two all day diagrams for triple traction but that was reduced to one last December. There is a double one too but it only works 19:32 up 22:00dn as far as Ipswich.

 

[arb]

Really glad to have stumbled upon this thead. Earlier this week as I was arriving in Cambridge, I was idly starting out of the window into the sidings as my train trundled past them, and I noticed various "<n> car stop" signs dotted around the sidings. Most of them made sense to me: 4, 8, 12, 5, 10, cars I could all explain. But I also saw an "11 car stop" sign. I'd been scratching my head wondering what it could be for - now I know!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The Southern Region in slam-door times were famous for these. Theoretically you could have got 4 classes in one 12 coach train (e.g. 4CIG/CEP + 4VEP + 2HAP + 2EPB). Not sure if that was ever diagrammed, but there were certainly various combinations of three of those four classes.

You have me thinking (again!). In Michael Welch's "A Southern Electric Album" (Capital Transport/2003) there is a view on the SW of a 12 car formed 2EPB+6HAP+4EPB taken back in 1966, a bit before my time. I don't ever recall diagramming 2EPB's and 2HAP's in the same formation, the 2HAP's normally being used to augment ML trains such as 8VEP/CIG+2HAP or 8VEP/CIG+4HAP, whereas the 2EPB's were normally used on suburban services as a rule, either as 2+2EPB alone or combined with a 4EPB.

Again, back in slam door days, but I remember commuting in/out of Leeds for a short period in old school DMU days, and quite often witnessed formations (in the southern side through platforms) of 4 or 5 x 2 car units. Which actual classes were involved I have no idea, as was just 'catching my train' at the time!

 

[Western 52]

The 755s are a bit odd but that's the planned formation. They're pretty quick too.

I'll give you 3 x class 26 locos with two Mk1 coaches from Georgemas Jn to Wick for starters. Obviously a few years ago.

I once had 3 x 26s from Brora to Inverness on 5 Mk1. I think it was in 1982.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Not a passenger move but a four-weekly Tonbridge West Yard-Derby RTC Saturday shift regularly runs with 2x Brush 73/9s on each end of a four-car Network Rail PLPR recording train, so as many locos as carriages. This is to position an extra pair of 73s up to Derby to work a PLPR set on Merseyrail the following Monday/Tuesday, with the locos returning south light engine.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You have me thinking (again!). In Michael Welch's "A Southern Electric Album" (Capital Transport/2003) there is a view on the SW of a 12 car formed 2EPB+6HAP+4EPB taken back in 1966, a bit before my time. I don't ever recall diagramming 2EPB's and 2HAP's in the same formation, the 2HAP's normally being used to augment ML trains such as 8VEP/CIG+2HAP or 8VEP/CIG+4HAP, whereas the 2EPB's were normally used on suburban services as a rule, either as 2+2EPB alone or combined with a 4EPB.

That would be unusual, as EPBs had lower gearing than HAPs and gangwayed stock to suit their more suburban duties.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

That would be unusual, as EPBs had lower gearing than HAPs and gangwayed stock to suit their more suburban duties.

A 50/50 mix was permissible, eg 4VEP+4EPB, as was the case on New Line diagrams, and any other formation providing the ML stock formed a minimum of 50%, as per the example mentioned up thread in Michael Welch's book. But something like 4VEP+8EPB was a no-no.

 

[hexagon789]

That would be unusual, as EPBs had lower gearing than HAPs and gangwayed stock to suit their more suburban duties.

Some 4EPBs were regeared for 90mph

 

[stevieinselby]

The 755s are a bit odd but that's the planned formation. They're pretty quick too.

This might be a silly question, but why? What's the advantage of running more expensive BMUs instead of EMUs, with all the limitations on access through the train that that entails?

 

[306024]

This might be a silly question, but why? What's the advantage of running more expensive BMUs instead of EMUs, with all the limitations on access through the train that that entails?

Quite simply to help the 745 availability. 720s on the Stansted services further help that 745 availability, if you made another Stansted diagram 720s (if available) then perhaps you could remove the 755s on the Norwich line, but it is all robbing Peter etc....

 

[DaventryRabbit]

One of the evening peak Calder Valley via Dewsbury services around 8 years ago was regularly formed of 158+142. The 142 would come ECS from Holbeck and begin boarding, with almost everyone cramming on... those of us "in the know" knew to hold back until the 158 arrived from the inbound service and attached to the front.
Back in the early to mid 1990s there was a Calder Valley service formed of 158+141.

Early 2000's I was on a late evening Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport TPE which was a 158/144. I think this was when the 144 was used on the Whitby Branch in the Summer (3 cars therefore extra capacity) and assume it was dropped off at Leeds

 

[stevieinselby]

Quite simply to help the 745 availability. 720s on the Stansted services further help that 745 availability, if you made another Stansted diagram 720s (if available) then perhaps you could remove the 755s on the Norwich line, but it is all robbing Peter etc....

Is that another way of saying "they ordered the wrong number of trains"?

 

[306024]

Is that another way of saying "they ordered the wrong number of trains"?

You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment. Frustratingly there is a solution to get a consistent product on both Norwich and Stansted services, but no one will sign the cheque.

 

[trei2k]

Although not a UK example, I find RhB in Switzerland a little funny how they mix their EMU and coaching stock very randomly in the same service.

Some examples from Flickr:

Chur - RhB Arosabahn

The new multiple units Allegra of the Rhaetian Railway were designed to be compatible with older rolling stock. That sometimes leads to strange train formations. It is even possible to walk between old and new rail cars, but not always. This is a train from Chur to Arosa with a "Bear Wagon" in...

flic.kr

Explore May 28, 2025

flic.kr

RhB Bt 528 xx - Celerina

Explore Fabio Miotto - www.fabiomiottophoto.com's 555 photos on Flickr!

flic.kr

 

[306024]

Although not a UK example, I find RhB in Switzerland a little funny how they mix their EMU and coaching stock very randomly in the same service.

Not to mention their 1,906m-long train, made up of 25 x 4 car units:

https://www.rhb.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/redaktion/Ueber_die_RhB/Medien/Dokumente/Medienmitteilungen/Medienmitteilungen_2022/20221029_MM_Weltrekordversuch_english.pdf

 

[eastwestdivide]

I find RhB in Switzerland a little funny how they mix their EMU and coaching stock very randomly in the same service.

And freight vehicles!
Here's a view looking back at the loco and postal container wagons from the observation car on one of their newish push-pull sets:


The same day we had an Allegra EMU pulling older coaches followed by freight wagons.