Strike Action Travel On Alternative Day Query - Avanti/TPE

[Crossover]

A family member is due to travel with Avanti on 3rd December and has had an Advance ticket booked for a while - the ticket is London Euston to Huddersfield (booked this way as there is engineering works meaning no LNER from Kings Cross) Route Avanti and TPE

Avanti have announced their strike on this day now and no trains will run on this date and they are considering staying an extra day in London and travelling on Monday 4th instead..

The Avanti website says that tickets can be used on all their services at other times
From https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/t...kxv36kboqzhmzuar-d4osows5dtizoabuxhhv9cayrx-8:

As industrial action is affecting a variety of train companies between 2 and 8 December, easements have been agreed so that the date validity of your pre-booked ticket is now more flexible.

• Tickets dated between Saturday 2 December and Friday 8 December can be used any time from Friday 1 December up until Tuesday 12 December.

You don’t need to make any changes to your ticket in order to travel flexibly – our onboard and station teams will be ready to accept your tickets as outlined above. However, these easements do not include London Underground services.

This covers off the Avanti element, but there is a connection on TPE. My family member has contacted TPE on social media and received the following:

It's a difficult one as we do extend ticket validity for when our trains are cancelled fro strike days, however, our trains are being impacted by the strike on the 8th December and are unaffected on 3rd. Therefore, we can't extend ticket validity and you would need a valid ticket to travel on the 4th. Where did you purchase your tickets please? ^SD

I would advise speaking with them directly regarding amending your ticket for you so it is valid to travel on all operators for the 4th. Thanks ^SD

They are currently considering buying a new ticket for the Manchester to Huddersfield leg (to save any additional stress) and claiming it back from Avanti. I am unconvinced this (claim) will succeed, but not sure if it necessary.

What would the forums concensus be on how to best approach this situation, without ending up financially out of pocket?

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

I would contact Avanti and ask them for advice and to re-route you.

 

[sheff1]

The text on the Avanti site quoted above suggests a blanket easement for all TOCs:

"As industrial action is affecting a variety of train companies between 2 and 8 December, easements have been agreed so that the date validity of your pre-booked ticket is now more flexible.

• Tickets dated between Saturday 2 December and Friday 8 December can be used any time from Friday 1 December up until Tuesday 12 December."

Whether that is the intention I do not know, but personally I would travel based on what they have said in writing (taking a screenshot) rather than what they may, or may not, have intended to say. Appreciate others may have a different outlook.

 

[Watershed]

TPE are completely wrong here. As the booked train is (or will be) cancelled, undoubtedly resulting in an anticipated delay of far over an hour, Article 16(c) of the PRO and Condition 28.3 of the NRCoT apply. These both give the right to make the journey at a later date of the passenger's convenience (i.e. not subject to any arbitrary limits imposed by the TOC).

Travelling on a different date under either provision may, however, require a new ticket to be issued or for specific permission to be obtained, so in practice it may be harder to exercise this right. But it is nevertheless the passenger's entitlement and therefore they would be entitled to reclaim the cost of a new ticket if they were charged for one (or bought one to avoid confrontation).

In any event the industry-wide guidance, once published, will almost certainly allow travel within a range of 1-12 December if the journey is affected by the industrial action. NRE says to check back next week for further details but Avanti's guidance already arguably gives permission to travel on another day.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

TPE are completely wrong here. As the booked train is (or will be) cancelled, undoubtedly resulting in an anticipated delay of far over an hour, Article 16(c) of the PRO and Condition 28.3 of the NRCoT apply. These both give the right to make the journey at a later date of the passenger's convenience (i.e. not subject to any arbitrary limits imposed by the TOC).

I don't think that PRO would apply to TPE here, it's the avanti service that's cancelled causing the issue, the tpe is still running on the day it is booked for, I think that the PRO obligations would have to be fulfilled by avanti either by supplying new tickets or arranging acceptance for tpe on the dates required

 

[Watershed]

I don't think that PRO would apply to TPE here, it's the avanti service that's cancelled causing the issue, the tpe is still running on the day it is booked for, I think that the PRO obligations would have to be fulfilled by avanti either by supplying new tickets or arranging acceptance for tpe on the dates required

You're correct that the PRO obligations would be enforceable against Avanti rather than TPE. However, the NRCoT obligation applies against all operators equally, so TPE are still wrong to suggest a new ticket needs to be bought. Even in the absence of the NRCoT obligation to allow redating to another day of the passenger's choice, with no way of reaching Manchester using Avanti on the booked day, TPE would be obliged to accept the ticket on the next day anyway.

 

[Alex365Dash]

In any event the industry-wide guidance, once published, will almost certainly allow travel within a range of 1-12 December if the journey is affected by the industrial action. NRE says to check back next week for further details but Avanti's guidance already arguably gives permission to travel on another day.

The industry-wide guidance that has now been issued permits travel on the above days for all legs for any journey that’s affected by industrial action on a TOC for at least one leg on a journey, except for legs operated by Caledonian Sleeper, Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo who won’t permit travel on alternative dates.

 

[Crossover]

The industry-wide guidance that has now been issued permits travel on the above days for all legs for any journey that’s affected by industrial action on a TOC for at least one leg on a journey, except for legs operated by Caledonian Sleeper, Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo who won’t permit travel on alternative dates.

Is this published publically anywhere, do you know?

 

[MrJeeves]

Is this published publically anywhere, do you know?

Industrial Action | National Rail

During rail strikes and periods of industrial action, the rail industry does all it can to minimise the impact for our passengers and help you plan around it. This page is updated regularly with the latest travel information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Can I get a refund or travel on a different day?

Customers who purchased Advance, Anytime or Off-Peak tickets before the strikes were announced - before 17 November - for a journey involving one of the train companies affected (listed above) for travel on a date between Saturday 2nd December and Friday 8 December 2023 will instead be able to use their ticket on either Friday 1 December or up to and including Tuesday 12 December 2023.

This policy does not apply to journeys wholly within the unaffected train companies: Elizabeth line, London Overground, Merseyrail, ScotRail, Transport for Wales - except where through tickets are held to or from them for journeys that also involve the affected train companies.

This policy does not apply to any journeys on the unaffected train companies: Caledonian Sleeper, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Lumo.

 

[Watershed]

Is this published publically anywhere, do you know?

Yes, on NRE (there was previously a message advising to check back later). I've underlined the relevant section.

Can I get a refund or travel on a different day?​

Travel on alternative dates​

Customers who purchased Advance, Anytime or Off-Peak tickets before the strikes were announced - before 17 November - for a journey involving one of the train companies affected (listed above) for travel on a date between Saturday 2nd December and Friday 8 December 2023 will instead be able to use their ticket on either Friday 1 December or up to and including Tuesday 12 December 2023.
This policy does not apply to journeys wholly within the unaffected train companies: Elizabeth line, London Overground, Merseyrail, ScotRail, Transport for Wales - except where through tickets are held to or from them for journeys that also involve the affected train companies.
This policy does not apply to any journeys on the unaffected train companies: Caledonian Sleeper, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Lumo.
Notes:

• Journeys should be permitted at as closely matching times as possible to the original booking.
• Seat reservations cannot be honoured if you travel on a different day.
• Customers who wish to change Advance tickets to travel outside of this easement are permitted to do so under the usual Advance ticket terms and conditions.

Crossing London:
Tickets with a cross-London marker [ † + Maltese Cross] denoting validity on London Underground and DLR services will be valid to use these services on the date shown on the ticket only. Customers using their tickets to travel on an alternative date will need to purchase a separate ticket or pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) for the London Underground or DLR segment of the journey.
TfL have confirmed that customers will not be able to use London Buses or London Trams as an alternative on any day; nor use London Underground or DLR outside of the valid route and on the date shown as noted above. Customers will be expected to pay for their TfL journeys as normal.

Fee-free refunds​

If you purchased an Advance, Off-Peak or Anytime ticket and choose not to travel at all because your service on either your outward or return journey has been cancelled, delayed or rescheduled then you will be entitled to a fee-free refund or change from the original retailer of your ticket.
In the event of your service being affected by strike action, cross-industry ticket acceptance between different train companies and temporary removal of certain ticket restrictions may be made available.
Please note refunds and changes can only be made by the original retailer of your ticket.
Please contact the train company you are travelling with for more information.

CS, GC, HT or Lumo are being extremely unhelpful there - they either haven't considered the possibility that customers might have a journey that involves both them and an affected operator (despite the fact that HT & Lumo price dedicated tickets involving them and other TOCs), or more likely they simply don't care.

The claim that you aren't entitled to travel on another day if your journey involves these 4 TOCs is simply incorrect under the NRCoT and PRO. Anybody who's forced to buy a new ticket or pay something extra as a result should pay up if unavoidable on the day, but complain to claim this back afterwards.

 

[Crossover]

Just a quick note to thank you all for your responses - from a ticketing perspective, all was well, just they had a tricky time with signalling issues up the WCML leading to an 80 minute delay

 

[redreni]

Yes, on NRE (there was previously a message advising to check back later). I've underlined the relevant section.



CS, GC, HT or Lumo are being extremely unhelpful there - they either haven't considered the possibility that customers might have a journey that involves both them and an affected operator (despite the fact that HT & Lumo price dedicated tickets involving them and other TOCs), or more likely they simply don't care.

The claim that you aren't entitled to travel on another day if your journey involves these 4 TOCs is simply incorrect under the NRCoT and PRO. Anybody who's forced to buy a new ticket or pay something extra as a result should pay up if unavoidable on the day, but complain to claim this back afterwards.

I appreciate it's not NRE's fault, but at the top of this page it says "During rail strikes and periods of industrial action, the rail industry does all it can to minimise the impact for our passengers and help you plan around it."

The specific arrangements for upcoming periods of strikes or other industrial action then appear beneath that.

In this case the specific arrangements are that four train operating companies are going to breach the NRCoT and the law of the land (specifically the PRO Regulation) in such a way as to force some passengers who bought tickets in good faith. but cannot now travel on the booked date, to buy a new - quite probably more expensive - ticket to travel on an an alternative date.

In addition, even the larger train operating companies whose contempt for passengers is a little bit less extreme and bare-faced are imposing arbitrary limits on when passengers may use their ticket when the NTCoT and PRO both make it perfectly clear that tickets may be used on an alternative date at the passenger's convenience.

That is not an industry doing all it can to minimise the impact for passengers.

None of this does anything to dissuade me from my view that the open access operators should, quite simply, be binned off.