Strike-affected journey on Sunday - options?

[gpmartin]

Hello. On Sunday 4 February I am planning to travel from Burton on Trent to London Euston via Birmingham New Street, using split tickets (Cross Country and West Midlands Trains /LNWR). I've just heard that the BHM-EUS part is cancelled - it is not a strike day but I think it is affected by the overtime ban.

Avanti services appear to be running but I presume there is no automatic ticket acceptance. What might my options be here? I need to be in London by Sunday evening, so can't travel on the later days offered.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

EDITED to add: I'm guessing the two main options are trying to exercise PRO rights, or asking for assistance from another TOC (Avanti) so that I am not stranded. Both sound like they may be quite challenging, with an uncertain outcome! So any recommendations about what to do and how to do it would be great. Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

As WMT aren't running any services on Sunday, you are effectively stranded and thus the provisions of NRCoT 28.2 come into play. They require any operator in a position to assist - i.e. thus including Avanti and EMR, who are still running services - to help you get to your destination. In this case that would mean Avanti or EMR would be obliged to accept your ticket.

Alternatively, as you say, you can also rely on your PRO right to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity, which would have the same outcome (being able to travel using Avanti or EMR - whichever is quicker in the circumstances) but would rely on WMT re-routing you.

I'd probably contact WMT on Twitter asking for them to arrange ticket acceptance or an endorsement in order to facilitate re-routing at the earliest opportunity under Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation. They'll likely refuse, and in that case you would have clear grounds for buying a new ticket as necessary to travel via the quickest available route, and claiming back the cost from WMT afterwards.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Avanti will almost certainly refuse any requests for ticket acceptance between Birmingham and Euston on Sunday as they're only running 1tph for most of the day due to Engineering Work. The majority of said trains start from Preston and beyond too, so will likely be heavily loaded.

 

[redreni]

Avanti will almost certainly refuse any requests for ticket acceptance between Birmingham and Euston on Sunday as they're only running 1tph for most of the day due to Engineering Work. The majority of said trains start from Preston and beyond too, so will likely be heavily loaded.

Sounds like their problem rather than the OP's. Doesn't make the NRCoT or PRO Regulation go away.

 

[Haywain]

Sounds like their problem rather than the OP's. Doesn't make the NRCoT or PRO Regulation go away.

In the circumstances described by the OP, PRO is nothing to do with Avanti.

 

[redreni]

In the circumstances described by the OP, PRO is nothing to do with Avanti.

No, but I'm a dreamer and I like to imagine a world where senior managers in the rail industry realise that next month the boot might very well be on the other foot and, actually, it matters how the industry as a whole treats passengers. Blanket ticket acceptance is a very efficient and cheap way to comply with the re-routing requirements under PRO but it requires mutual cooperation and grown-ups talking to each other. I accept, of course, that Avanti is not required under PRO to accept LNWR tickets on this occasion.

Not to mention the fact that in this particular case, the OP can't complete his journey on the ticket he has bought unless another TOC helps him out, which they have to do under NRCoT.

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. In practice, how easy or difficult is it to reclaim the cost of a ticket under PRO if a TOC refuses to arrange rerouting itself? Have many people successfully done so? By the looks of it, an off peak single on Avanti is £46, so it won't break the bank, but it would be nice to know that there would be a decent prospect of getting it back from WMT.

 

[redreni]

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. In practice, how easy or difficult is it to reclaim the cost of a ticket under PRO if a TOC refuses to arrange rerouting itself? Have many people successfully done so? By the looks of it, an off peak single on Avanti is £46, so it won't break the bank, but it would be nice to know that there would be a decent prospect of getting it back from WMT.

Before buying that ticket I would obtain and store very clear evidence both that

- WMT (or whatever they're calling themselves) have refused to re-route you, and
- Avanti have told you that they're not going to accept your ticket even though you've told them that would leave you stranded.

At that point I'm afraid I can't advise as to the prospects of success as I've been lucky enough so far not to have needed to claim reimbursement. I understand they always refuse at first but often yield when they get a formal letter before claim threatening to take them to the County Court (if the passenger has not given them a way out, such as accepting an offer of a refund for the original ticket). No guarantees, obviously!

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you @redreni. Good advice. It seems like making the requests via social media will likely be best, so that I can get them in writing. I'll try WMT tomorrow and see what they say, then try Avanti on the day (by social media and at New Street in person). I will of course let the forum know the outcome, good or bad and straightforward or complicated...

 

[yorkie]

If you contact them via Twitter and receive a negative response, let me know, and I will get the forum account involved to put pressure on them.

If you booked through us, then I may be prepared to go even further to help.

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you @yorkie, I appreciate that. I didn't book through the forum on this occasion, I'm afraid - I always book advance tickets via Cross Country in case I need to change them.

I'll keep you posted!

 

[yorkie]

I'll still back you up via Twitter if they refuse to help. If you book with us in future, I'd be prepared to assist a bit further if required, e.g. with letter writing/proofreading.

 

[gpmartin]

Thanks - much appreciated. For tickets other than advances, the forum booking engine will be my provider of choice.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. In practice, how easy or difficult is it to reclaim the cost of a ticket under PRO if a TOC refuses to arrange rerouting itself? Have many people successfully done so? By the looks of it, an off peak single on Avanti is £46, so it won't break the bank, but it would be nice to know that there would be a decent prospect of getting it back from WMT.

I've not had occasion to claim against WMT under the PRO - only under the NRCoT for a taxi after the last train was cancelled, which they paid readily enough albeit it took them ages to cough up.

But I have made PRO claims against several other TOCs and these claims have all ended up being paid - some initially, others after some back-and-forth, and in one case after initiating a civil claim.

I'd be pretty confident you will get your money back, it is just a question of the time and effort it takes.

 

[gpmartin]

An update on this. As suggested, I contacted WMT on social media. They asked me to DM them my ticket, which I did. They then advised via DM that ticket acceptance is in place, but unadvertised (as they do not want to overwhelm the limited Avanti service, and so it is better if people defer travel if they can). This seems fair enough to me (and I think disclosing it on this forum is not going to undermine that approach - they didn't ask me to keep it confidential, anyway). They even advised that I contact Avanti social media to see if they could reserve a ticket for me.

So far so good.

I contacted Avanti requesting a reservation, as suggested, and their social media team denied all knowledge of ticket acceptance.

So I got back to WMT to double-check, and they altered their position somewhat , saying it couldn't be guaranteed, may change day-to-day, that Avanti customers would be prioritised, and that I might want to check with the train manager.

All in all, not ideal. But I think that I am now covered one way or another: by PRO, by NCoT 28.2, and by permission from WMT in writing (albeit changed from "we do have ticket acceptance with Avanti for tomorrow" to "as far as I'm aware your ticket will be accepted, but I'd double check"). My guess is that it's just that Avanti's social media team are not as well informed as WMT's, but it's an extra hassle!

Thanks again for the advice and offers of assistance.

 

[redreni]

All I would say here is that you can't check with the guard as suggested until you've boarded the train at Birmingham. Since WMT advised you to do this, any amount you may end up having to pay to the guard (and I very much doubt you'll need to pay anything) is legit to claim back from WMT and any arguments they may make to the effect that they told you about this several days ago and you could have paid less if you'd sorted it out earlier would be entirely misplaced.

I agree the vagueness is far from ideal. Creates unnecessary anxiety. If the guard were to insist that you had to buy a new ticket, you could find that WMT and Avanti both agree you should get your money back but each claim the other is responsible.

 

[yorkie]

This is how the modern railway likes to treat it's passengers, sadly.

If it was me I'd be refusing to pay anything extra; you are covered under NRCoT 28.

 

[clagmonster]

I would suggest seeking assistance at Burton booking office. It is entirely plausible that EMR will agree to pass the ticket via Derby to St Pancras and provide appropriate endorsement.

 

[gpmartin]

A further update. This morning I received the following DM from WMT on Twitter:

I've been informed that Avanti are not accepting tickets on their trains today. I do apologise for any inconvenience caused. If you do need to travel with them today, it's worth speaking to them, however it is likely that you will need to purchase a new ticket with them. You can then claim a refund on the WMR/LNR only ticket. Alternatively, your WMR/LNR only ticket will be valid tomorrow and up to and including Wednesday. I do apologise for any confusion and mixed messaging - the situation is constantly changing and the messaging is varying. If you need any further assistance, I'm here all day so please don't hesitate to drop me a message.

I've replied reasserting my PRO rights:

OK. This is not very impressive. In that case, please could I refer you to my original message, and ask you to arrange to reroute me from Birmingham to London for my journey today, under Article 16 of the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations regulation? See https://legislation.gov.uk/eur/2007/1371/chapter/IV
. As you will be aware, this provides that "Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes," the passenger is entitled to receive "continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity." On this occasion, the earliest opportunity to travel will be the next Avanti service running from Birmingham New Street to Euston. Please could you therefore arrange for my ticket to be passed on this service, or purchase a valid ticket for me?

I'll let you know what they say. I will also see what Burton ticket office have to say as @clagmonster suggests. I presume, though, that I can no longer rely on the original information provided by WMT and simply board an Avanti train, as I might now be liable for prosecution - presumably authority to board provided by a rail company staff member that is later rescinded doesn't count!

 

[Watershed]

A further update. This morning I received the following DM from WMT on Twitter:



I've replied reasserting my PRO rights:


I'll let you know what they say. I will also see what Burton ticket office have to say as @clagmonster suggests. I presume, though, that I can no longer rely on the original information provided by WMT and simply board an Avanti train, as I might now be liable for prosecution - presumably authority to board provided by a rail company staff member that is later rescinded doesn't count!

I would simply ignore the later message. Who's to say you read it? You were given authority and you're entitled to rely on that; there was nothing in the authority that makes it conditional or revocable. Selectively screenshot if necessary!

Avanti or EMR are obliged to carry you in any event, so I would not be paying anything extra voluntarily. If you are charged extra onboard either operator despite explaining the applicability of NRCoT 28.2, pay (under duress) but make sure to keep the receipt and ticket to claim this back from the relevant TOC.

 

[gpmartin]

I would simply ignore the later message. Who's to say you read it? You were given authority and you're entitled to rely on that; there was nothing in the authority that makes it conditional or revocable. Selectively screenshot if necessary!

Avanti or EMR are obliged to carry you in any event, so I would not be paying anything extra voluntarily. If you are charged extra onboard either operator despite explaining the applicability of NRCoT 28.2, pay (under duress) but make sure to keep the receipt and ticket to claim this back from the relevant TOC.

I did consider that (and indeed I do have a screenshot of the original permission!) - however, I'm not sure how Twitter works when it comes to showing that notifications have been read, and I'd rather do things by the book.

I think I've taken the conversation with WMT Twitter team as far as it will go. In response to my reply above:

As far as I have been made aware, Avanti are not accepting our tickets, and we're unable to offer compensation for the difference in fare or purchase new tickets for customers. Their services are extremely busy and, as a result, there is no ticket acceptance in place. If you don't wish to purchase a new ticket, what I have been advised is that CrossCountry are accepting our tickets to Reading today, where connections can be made to services towards London Paddington. However, their services are extremely busy due to engineering works and industrial action. Alternatively, your ticket will be valid up to and including the 7th February if you are able to delay or postpone your journey. If you did purchase a new ticket and wished to make a claim, this can be done by visiting http://wmr.uk/contactus and contacting our Customer Relations team. Claims are considered on a case by case basis and a member of the team will investigate your claim and provide a full detailed response, however we have been informed that no compensation will be paid beyond a refund of unused tickets due to industrial action.

I replied:

To be clear, are you saying that you are refusing to fulfil your legal obligations under the PRO, as quoted above?

To which they responded:

As explained, we are unable to rebook onto the above Avanti service as there is no ticket acceptance and they are not able to accept our tickets. If you wished to purchase a separate ticket with them, that would be your choice. A full refund can be provided, or your ticket will be valid on a later date. If you wish to escalate this further, it will need to be done through Customer Relations.

I read this as an invitation to buy a ticket and try my luck with a retrospective PRO claim through their Customer Relations office. I'm prepared to do this, but will try to exercise my NRCoT 28.2 rights at Burton and Birmingham first.

If I do need to buy a ticket, I'll have to decide whether to do it on the train or at New Street. I guess if I buy one on the train I may be charged the full open single rather than the off peak single - do you think that would affect the chances of my PRO claim?

Thanks again to all for the advice and suggestions.

 

[Watershed]

I did consider that (and indeed I do have a screenshot of the original permission!) - however, I'm not sure how Twitter works when it comes to showing that notifications have been read, and I'd rather do things by the book.

As far as I'm aware, that is only possible if you have your "read receipts" turned on. And in any event, Avanti (or at least their TM) won't be in a position to know this. I'd consider this perfectly by the book - ticket acceptance can't simply be revoked so what they are saying is of no legal effect.

I read this as an invitation to buy a ticket and try my luck with a retrospective PRO claim through their Customer Relations office. I'm prepared to do this,

That's certainly one option. Sadly I can't say I'm surprised at the unhelpful (even if polite) nature of the responses.

but will try to exercise my NRCoT 28.2 rights at Burton and Birmingham first.

I would expect that to be entirely fruitless but I suppose there is no harm in trying.

If I do need to buy a ticket, I'll have to decide whether to do it on the train or at New Street. I guess if I buy one on the train I may be charged the full open single rather than the off peak single - do you think that would affect the chances of my PRO claim?

It's possible you'd be charged the Anytime Single onboard the train but this would have no impact on your ability to make a PRO claim. Either way it's simply the (legitimate) cost you have incurred to re-route yourself. If Avanti had complied with the NRCoT and not charged you, you wouldn't be needing to make a claim anyway.

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. Ideally it would be great to avoid the hassle of pursuing WMT (though I'd enjoy the righteous indignation ), so I'll buy a ticket only if forced. I'll provide a trip report this evening! Thanks again for your considered advice.

 

[Snow1964]

If you have the original message saying ticket acceptance has been agreed then you can show that if challenged, and allow the ticket inspector to photograph it if required (but don't hand over a phone so they can scroll around)

I would not show the later message revoking it. The ticket examiner wont know you have received it and read it.

If they did try and charge you, refuse to pay, and say you wish the ticket acceptance message to be included on any dispute report form as reason for not paying. If they refuse to do that, write it on there yourself before signing it.

Ultimately it's for the Operators to get their act together behind the scenes and if they feel it necessary to reimburse each other, not to charge stranded customers and expect them to jump through hoops to be reimbursed later.

 

[mick69]

sorry to hijack this thread but i have a similar situation for mon 5th
got tickets from sheffield to tamworth which is split sheff/derby & derby/tamworth both are off peak valid for any route
the only way i can make the journey is to re-route via stockport & crewe,
will i be ok or need to buy new?
thanks

 

[30907]

sorry to hijack this thread but i have a similar situation for mon 5th
got tickets from sheffield to tamworth which is split sheff/derby & derby/tamworth both are off peak valid for any route
the only way i can make the journey is to re-route via stockport & crewe,
will i be ok or need to buy new?
thanks

EMR are running Sheffield-Derby.
You could then route Derby-Stoke-Stafford-Tamworth on EMR and London NW. I would ask at Derby?

 

[mick69]

thanks, just hope tickets are still valid

 

[gpmartin]

Well I've made it to London and I'm glad to say I didn't need to have any arguments about passenger rights at all. My train from Burton was cancelled but I managed to squeeze onto a Plymouth service which stopped additionally at Burton 10 minutes earlier. That meant I made the 15:21 Avanti service, which was full but not heaving. No ticket checks on the train or at Euston, and I arrived about 40 minutes earlier than my original itinerary!

So all ended well, though it would have been so much nicer if the TOCs had simply worked together or respected contract law. Maybe one day...

 

[jrh2254]

If you contact them via Twitter and receive a negative response, let me know, and I will get the forum account involved to put pressure on them.

If you booked through us, then I may be prepared to go even further to help.

Unfortunately I didn’t have the same luck as GPmartin. I was travelling Farncombe to Burton on Trent yesterday (Sunday). I had a single ticket Farncombe to Waterloo which was perfect (bought via Uber as 10% discount), then travelled across London to Euston using my Oyster(with senior railcard discount). I then went to the barriers to catch the 17.15pm to Birmingham New Street using the return portion of my super off peak return I had bought from Uber (Burton-on-Trent to Euston (out on Friday morning, return Sunday - all with reservations, which were confirmed when I bought the ticket)), but was refused entry. I said that I was expecting acceptance , to which they said we "were until 9am this morning" ! So I was forced to buy two new tickets , one for my wife and one for me at the barrier. The person issuing the tickets was very stressed and I asked for 2 tickets, both with senior railcards - the train was about to go so just paid and we boarded the train. On closer inspection of the tickets he had sold me one with a senior railcard and one without !

So on the train I sent a message to Avanti and they were very helpful and said just put a claim in for the difference, include both railcards and an explanation of what had happened to [email protected] I did this on the train and will keep you posted on the outcome.

My question is what do I do with our tickets we used yesterday (Sunday):

Mine : 1. Single open ticket Farncombe to Waterloo purchased via Uber, 2. Oyster Waterloo to Euston , 3. Return portion of a super off-peak ticket, Euston to Burton-on-Trent which was WMR and connecting CrossCountry purchased via Uber? I travelled down the previous Friday , went to Oxted using separate tickets (Oyster and Rail) stayed overnight at friends and was given a car lift to Farncombe, hence only needed a single ticket on the Sunday back to Waterloo.

My wife : 1. Return portion of an open return Waterloo to Farncombe purchased via Uber 2. Oyster Waterloo to Euston, 3. Off peak return Burton-on-Trent to Euston station purchased from this forum - out Wednesday 31/1/24, return Sunday 4/2/24

To be honest I am purchasing via Uber where I can because of the 10% discount and where I can’t via this forum.

Many thanks.

Well I've made it to London and I'm glad to say I didn't need to have any arguments about passenger rights at all. My train from Burton was cancelled but I managed to squeeze onto a Plymouth service which stopped additionally at Burton 10 minutes earlier. That meant I made the 15:21 Avanti service, which was full but not heaving. No ticket checks on the train or at Euston, and I arrived about 40 minutes earlier than my original itinerary!

So all ended well, though it would have been so much nicer if the TOCs had simply worked together or respected contract law. Maybe one day...

Glad it ended well. No so with us travelling the opposite way. See my post to Yorkie.

EMR are running Sheffield-Derby.
You could then route Derby-Stoke-Stafford-Tamworth on EMR and London NW. I would ask at Derby?

I had a similar situation a few weeks back and travelled Euston to Stoke , Stoke to Derby , Derby to Burton-on-Trent. No problems and WMR + CrossCountry tickets only were checked by Avanti and EMR with no problems. Hope you are as fortunate.

 

[Haywain]

My question is what do I do with our tickets we used yesterday (Sunday):

Mine : 1. Single open ticket Farncombe to Waterloo purchased via Uber, 2. Oyster Waterloo to Euston ,

My wife : 1. Return portion of an open return Waterloo to Farncombe purchased via Uber 2. Oyster Waterloo to Euston,

In terms of these particular tickets, I'm not sure why you're asking what to do with them. You used them, so unless you are claiming Delay Repay that's the end of them. They may provide evidence of what your overall journey was but I don't see as you would have anything to prove that makes retaining these necessary. Unless I'm missing something...