Structural Changes in Regulated Fares (Semantics) since Simplification

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Zoe

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[Mod Note - Split from this thread]

On simplification some TOCs renamed their savers to off-peak returns, some to anytime returns, and some (including FGW) renamed most of them to super off-peak returns.
No they did not. At simplification FGW Savers became Off Peak but they are still SVR. In 2009 however FGW introduced a new Super Off Peak ticket at the same price as the old Off Peak ticket and this allowed the Off Peak (SVR) to be hiked by about 20 percent as the Super Off Peak Return (SSR) became the regulated fare.
 
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Zoe

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Who is 'they'? The statement by Indigo2 without brackets is totally correct, but I accept it is quite possible that the "(including FGW)" may not be quite right as it may have happened a short time later, not that it really matters that much. The principle and end result is the same!
No-one renamed Saver (SVR) tickets to Super Off Peak, Saver (SVR) became Off Peak as part of simplification. Some companies did however introduce a SSR ticket though at the same price as the old SVR fare to allow the Off Peak (SVR) to be increased.
 

yorkie

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No-one renamed Saver (SVR) tickets to Super Off Peak
We'll have to agree to disagree on that!
Saver (SVR) became Off Peak as part of simplification
Not universally. It is, essentially, as Indigo2 says.
Some companies did however introduce a SSR ticket though at the same price as the old SVR fare to allow the Off Peak (SVR) to be increased.
You could word it like that, yes. It's really down to semantics is it not?
 

Zoe

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Not universally. It is, essentially, as Indigo2 says.
Yes, it was universal. SVR became Off Peak and still is without exception. What changed was that the companies could introduce a new SSR ticket at the regulated rate and this allowed SVR tickets to be increased. Before simplification the SVR was always the regulated fare. This doesn't change the fact that the Off Peak ticket is still the SVR, it's just in some cases it's the regulated fare and in others it is not.
 

Zoe

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What, even on flows priced by Northern? Are you sure?:
So on Northern, the code for Off Peak Return is not SVR? If you are talking about York to Sheffield, that's an Anytime return now. There is no Off Peak (SVR) fare. Since simplification there has been a regulated fare rather than a specific regulated ticket and in some cases the SVR was abolished and the Anytime set at the regulated rate.
 
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yorkie

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So on Northern, the code for Off Peak Return is not SVR?
The code for Off Peak Return is SVR, but that is not being questioned.

As Indigo2 said earlier, some Saver fares became Anytime.

That applies to the former Savers priced by Northern, and I believe another operator may have done the same (I can't remember which now) to reflect the fact that the tickets were, and remain, valid any time.

Some other TOCs who also had unrestricted Savers did something else, such as renaming them to Off Peak despite being valid at any time, while in some cases nominal peak times (e.g. 0115-0400) were introduced to justify the name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you are talking about York to Sheffield, that's an Anytime return now. There is no Off Peak (SVR) fare. Since simplification there has been a regulated fare rather than a specific regulated ticket and in some cases the SVR was abolished and the Anytime set at the regulated rate.
Yes, that's right. York to Sheffield is a good example. That's what Indigo2 and I have been saying all along, glad you agree :)
 

Zoe

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Yes, that's right. York to Sheffield is a good example. That's what Indigo2 and I have been saying all along, glad you agree :)
What was claimed above is that Saver tickets were renamed, they were not. For York to Sheffield the SVR ticket was withdrawn and the Anytime fare set at the regulated rate.
 

WillPS

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[/ pedantry]

The point was (from my reading) the perceived replacement, not the exact ticket name.
 
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yorkie

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What was claimed above is that Saver tickets were renamed, they were not. For York to Sheffield the SVR ticket was withdrawn and the Anytime fare set at the regulated rate.
Depends how you view it, but it's really just semantics!

It can be worded in various different ways, but the end result is the same.

'The old Saver was renamed to Anytime, at the same price and remains protected' or 'The old Saver was abolished. A new Anytime was introduced, at the same price as the old Saver, and this became the protected fare' both essentially have the same meaning.
 

Zoe

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The fact is though the Saver ticket was a SVR and the SVR is now an Off Peak so it can be seen that Saver tickets became Off Peak. At the end of the day though it isn't as simple as it was before simplification.
 

wintonian

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Depends how you view it, but it's really just semantics!

It can be worded in various different ways, but the end result is the same.

'The old Saver was renamed to Anytime, at the same price and remains protected' or 'The old Saver was abolished. A new Anytime was introduced, at the same price as the old Saver, and this became the protected fare' both essentially have the same meaning.
That is how it appears,

The fact is though the Saver ticket was a SVR and the SVR is now an Off Peak so it can be seen that Saver tickets became Off Peak. At the end of the day though it isn't as simple as it was before simplification.
Yes, but the moving arround of and changing of the restrictions give the apparence of what Yorkie is saying, however the actual steps involved were a little more detaild.

What all this boils down to is that in effect the old SVR is the same (or very similiter) to todays anytime fare.

That my understanding anyway.
 

Zoe

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And FWIW I don't agree with Zoe that there were flows on which the Saver was withdrawn and replaced with a different fare. What was the Saver is a protected fare under fares regulation and cannot be withdrawn.
There is a regulated fare that can't be withdrawn but since simplification this doesn't apply to a specific ticket. At simplification the Saver ticket itself was renamed Off Peak but could be increased or withdrawn if another ticket was offered under the same regulations that had applied to the SVR before simplification.
Looks like I was wrong though about when exactly FGW did the sleight of hand with removing the old SSR and renaming the SVR to SSR.
FGW did not rename the SVR to SSR. In 2006 at the start of the new franchise the SSR was withdrawn. This was before simplification and so the SVR was the regulated fare and the SSR was cheaper but was not regulated. I believe the reason stated at the time for withdrawing the SSR was that a wide range of advance fares had been introduced and these were even cheaper than the SSR and they wanted to make things simpler by reducing the number of tickets. As this was done before simplification it would not have been possible to set the SSR at the SVR rate and hike the SVR as the regulations applied specifically to the SVR. In 2009 however after simplification the regulations no longer applied to a specific ticket and so FGW could introduce a new SSR ticket as the regulated fare and this allowed the SVR to be increased.
 
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John @ home

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Yes, it was universal. SVR became Off Peak and still is without exception.
No. That's wrong. Northern renamed all their Saver Returns (SVRs) as Anytime Returns (SORs).

We spent months debating on this forum that one of the consequences of that was that for these journeys the weekday peak minimum fare with a Young Person's Railcard increased overnight from £8 to £16. Northern said that it was an unintended consequence of their decision to remove all restrictions. Some months later, the 16-25 Railcard minimum fare was harmonised at £12 for all ticket types.
 

Zoe

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No. That's wrong. Northern renamed all their Saver Returns (SVRs) as Anytime Returns (SORs).
No it is not wrong. Northern did not rename any SVR tickets to Anytime Return, without exception all SVR tickets in Great Britain were renamed Off Peak. In this case the Anytime return was set at the regulated rate (which had previously applied to the SVR ticket) and the SVR ticket itself was withdrawn. As I said above simplification no longer required a specific ticket to be regulated only that there is a regulated fare. Before simplification on York to Sheffield there was no SOR and the SVR was valid at all times. On Northern the £16 minimum fare applied to Anytime tickets so when the SVR was withdrawn, even though a SOR was introduced at the regulated rate it was still a SOR and not a renamed SVR so £16 could be charged.
 
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yorkie

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No they did not..
Who is 'they'? The statement by Indigo2 without brackets is totally correct, but I accept it is quite possible that the "(including FGW)" may not be quite right as it may have happened a short time later, not that it really matters that much. The principle and end result is the same!
 
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Indigo2

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I don't agree with Zoe that there were flows on which the Saver was withdrawn and replaced with a different fare. What was the Saver is a protected fare under fares regulation and cannot be withdrawn. Since fares simplification though, it looks like there are no restrictions on it being renamed. Looks like I was wrong though about when exactly FGW did the sleight of hand with removing the old SSR and renaming the SVR to SSR.
 
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HowMuch?

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Do I gather that TOCs are allowed to increase the price of a ticket with a particular set of restrictions - provided they introduce a new ticket (even if it has increased restrictions) at the regulated price?
 

Zoe

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Do I gather that TOCs are allowed to increase the price of a ticket with a particular set of restrictions - provided they introduce a new ticket (even if it has increased restrictions) at the regulated price?
There are rules on the times that the regulated fare can be restricted so additional restrictions can only be imposed if the current ticket has more generous restrictions than required by the rules.
 
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HowMuch?

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See this post by John @ Home
Thanks, Yorkie. When I asked my question, I hadn't seen that new thread.

The examples where a ticket gets dearer, but is replaced at the old price by a more restricted verson, had made wonder whether the rules protect just the price, not the restrictions. I'm grateful to [email protected] for posting the actual words and restoring my faith.
....An off-peak, walk-up fare for long-distance journeys is regulated where an equivalent fare existed in 2003. Both the price and the restrictions on these fares are regulated:....

Silly of me, really, or it would be ("What's your problem? You can still travel at the old price on 29 February.")

So given the restrictions ARE regulated, then the examples were allowed either because :

(a) The tickets didn't exist in 2003
- And were therefore unregulated

(b) The tickets were less restricted than the 2003 ones (as Zoe says)
- So even when the restrictions were tightened, the TOC was still providing a regulated ticket, freeing the less-restricted one to go up.
 
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Zoe

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(b) The tickets were less restricted than the 2003 ones (as Zoe says)
- So even when the restrictions were tightened, the TOC was still providing a regulated ticket, freeing the less-restricted one to go up.
This refers to the restrictions that are regulated, not what restrictions the TOC elected to actually imposed in 2003. For example the FGW SVR fare restrictions were more generous than required.
 
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John @ home

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Note that my post is misleading if read in isolation. In answering "Yes" to "Isn't the Off-Peak Return (SVR) ticket regulated?", I am stating that the particular SVR under discussion in that thread, the SVR Birmingham Stns - Kyle of Lochalsh route Any Permitted, is regulated.

The regulated fare may have migrated to one of several ticket types. For example, the following are all regulated:
  • Off-Peak Return (SVR) Birmingham Stns - Kyle of Lochalsh route Any Permitted, set by CrossCountry
  • Super Off-Peak Return (SSR) High Wycombe - Kyle of Lochalsh route ✠ Any Permitted, set by East Coast
  • Anytime Return (SOR) High St Glasgow - Bradford Yk Stns route Via Appleby, set by Northern.
 
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