Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[Bald Rick]

Has the current line been built such that it is clear to all mainline stock?

If it hasn't, then it is at variance to standards for a new line.

 

[edwin_m]

In my area we have plusbus, a simple add on fare to the train fare that achieves exactly that.

http://www.plusbus.info/

Yes but far from perfect. If your first leg is by bus the only way you can make use of it is to go to a station on a previous occasion (either to a ticket office or to a machine to collect an online ticket) or book online several days beforehand and get it posted.

 

[Iskra]

Transport Scotland has announced it intends to award the contract to look at wider transport issues across the south of the country to Jacobs UK Ltd.

That's crackers.

 

[Iskra]

Except for the fact that the single line sections on the existing stretch mean that there is little or no capacity for any additional trains.

Surely it would be the same trains as now, travelling further. Not extra trains.

 

[tomatwark]

It is going to take at least 7 months to put this report together.

I suspect that the reason it is being done for trains, buses and road is that Nicola can then tell people if you have independent Scotland we will give you all these improvements.

I think with all the political in fighting going on at the moment the extension to Hawick is a lot further away than it was 6 months ago.

 

[DelW]

It is going to take at least 7 months to put this report together.

I suspect that the reason it is being done for trains, buses and road is that Nicola can then tell people if you have independent Scotland we will give you all these improvements.

I think with all the political in fighting going on at the moment the extension to Hawick is a lot further away than it was 6 months ago.

Or is it possible that on the other hand the SNP want to get it funded pronto while the Barnett formula is still using English taxes to pay for Scottish spending?

 

[DarloRich]

Forgive me for commenting that is prejudging the result of the forthcoming study.

My personal view is that a full reopening to Carlisle would provide a useful diversionary route. It would have been invaluable during the Lamington Viaduct closure and would potentially be useful during engineering work such as that planned for the coming weekend.

the spotterish obsession with diversionary routes will, as they say, butter no financial parsnips. The route must either stand alone or fail.

personally I can, just about, see a route to Hawick paying back after that..................

 

[NotATrainspott]

Or alternatively it's because there's a council election on and anything like this looks good for the Scottish Government.

 

[Highland37]

Or is it possible that on the other hand the SNP want to get it funded pronto while the Barnett formula is still using English taxes to pay for Scottish spending?

Yes that's exactly it. I pay much less tax than anyone in England and I am delighted to subsidise HS2 despite it never leaving England.

Jeezo! If you want to keep the UK together you are going to have to be a bit more diplomatic than the Daily Mail.

 

[DelW]

Yes that's exactly it. I pay much less tax than anyone in England and I am delighted to subsidise HS2 despite it never leaving England.

Jeezo! If you want to keep the UK together you are going to have to be a bit more diplomatic than the Daily Mail.

My comment wasn't meant to be taken too seriously - I'm English and my partner is Scottish so we rehearse these little discussions quite often.

Mind you quite a few of us would happily give Scotland independence if it got Nicola and Alex off our TV screens for good. However it's probably better not to get too far into politics on this thread.

Eventually HS2 ought to benefit Scottish travellers to the south, though (more on-topic) I wouldn't bet on a connection to Hawick and the Waverley route. Not sure I'll still be around to see it though...

 

[Highland37]

No problem at all .

I think HS2 should some come to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I don't want to pay for it otherwise but recognise that I will have to subsidise it under the current constitutional arrangements.

I have not had time to read the work regarding extending the route. Does it include the long tunnel in the south?

 

[Altnabreac]

Whilst the Borders Railway led to the end of a parallel bus route, as has happened elsewhere, the lessons learnt are the buses have to become feeders to the railway as they did to the trunk bus route.

With the railway carrying many more passengers than the lost bus route it actually makes feeder buses more viable, especially when Station car parks are full so early in the day.

This is no more than a transition stage from the old bus route network to a new one.

Manchester Trams resulted in the bus network of Manchester being totally recast, but that took years!

Except that no routes have been discontinued, just the residents of the Borders will no longer have the pleasure of being served by First Bus:
http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.u...ecures-future-of-borders-bus-routes-1-4410556

 

[DelW]

No problem at all .

I think HS2 should some come to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I don't want to pay for it otherwise but recognise that I will have to subsidise it under the current constitutional arrangements.

I have not had time to read the work regarding extending the route. Does it include the long tunnel in the south?

I agree entirely. A few years ago I used to be a part-week commuter to Glasgow from south-west of London - flying was the only way it was feasible, but a full HS route *might* have made rail competitive - time rather than cost was the issue. If it could eliminate even a proportion of Edinburgh & Glasgow flights from LHR and LGW there would be a benefit in that alone.

I've lost track of the current route proposals down here - for my part I think it would have been better to follow existing motorway or rail corridors rather than using extensive tunnelling to get under the Chilterns. That way the route could have been built and commissioned in bite-sized chunks as well, but it's probably too late for that approach now, unless the post-Brexit economy really tanks and the whole scheme is deferred for a decade or two. Oops, getting political again .

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Except that no routes have been discontinued, just the residents of the Borders will no longer have the pleasure of being served by First Bus:
http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.u...ecures-future-of-borders-bus-routes-1-4410556

On the face of it that looks like good news. Though it begs the question: why are West Coast Motors reasonably confident about being able to retain a similar network in the area when First were not?

 

[Altnabreac]

On the face of it that looks like good news. Though it begs the question: why are West Coast Motors reasonably confident about being able to retain a similar network in the area when First were not?

Because First were rubbish?

More seriously there will be some benefits from integrating the former First and Perrymans routes together under one operation. I also suspect there will be some changes to the frequency and operation of the X95 to reflect the new reality of the railway line.

Looking at the Perrymans route map it's clear that St Boswells is a bit of a hub for all the bus services.

An extension of train services to Newtown St Boswells could be very useful for improving integration with the bus network.

I'll be interested to see what station locations are proposed between Tweedbank and NSB as well. There are at least 4 possible station locations within a fairly short stretch. Choices around best serving the BGH, Melrose town centre etc will not be easy.

In Hawick I suspect a new station location would be logical as well, sticking to the north side of the Teviot.

Beyond that the study will conclude Hawick - Carlisle is not viable, reconfirm the new stations at Reston and East Linton and the new platform at Dunbar.

On the roads there will be some A1 dualling at Ayton, some more WS2+1 on the A68 and maybe a revival of the Pathhead Bypass with vaguer discussions of bypasses for Lauder and Earlston.

 

[route:oxford]

Beyond that the study will conclude Hawick - Carlisle is not viable, reconfirm the new stations at Reston and East Linton and the new platform at Dunbar.

Perhaps.

HS2, if it reaches Scotland, might end up being what results in the full re-opening of the Borders route.

Upgrading the operational West Coast mainline was horrendously expensive and time consuming.

The accountant in me wonders if the cost of:-

Re-opening of Hawick-to-Carlisle
+
Closure, then total rebuild of Carlisle-Carstairs to HS2 standards

Would take less time and considerably less money than by upgrading and improving the WCML between Carlisle & Carstairs on a bitty basis.

 

[JohnR]

No problem at all .

I think HS2 should some come to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I don't want to pay for it otherwise but recognise that I will have to subsidise it under the current constitutional arrangements.

I have not had time to read the work regarding extending the route. Does it include the long tunnel in the south?

According to Scottish Government figures, Scotland is allocated 2% of the cost of HS2, while HS2 Ltd's figures suggest Scotland will receive approximately 6% of the economic benefits.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps.

HS2, if it reaches Scotland, might end up being what results in the full re-opening of the Borders route.

Upgrading the operational West Coast mainline was horrendously expensive and time consuming.

The accountant in me wonders if the cost of:-

Re-opening of Hawick-to-Carlisle
+
Closure, then total rebuild of Carlisle-Carstairs to HS2 standards

Would take less time and considerably less money than by upgrading and improving the WCML between Carlisle & Carstairs on a bitty basis.

Maybe. But the trouble is, that would only work if you upgrade/improve Edinburgh-Tweedbank first: As a minimum, in that scenario, the existing route would probably need to become double-track all the way to cope with all the diverted Edinburgh-England trains while Carlisle-Carstairs is closed (that'll mean rebuilding several bridges). Then you'd need to sort out the junction with the main line in Edinburgh. By the time you've done that, would you really have less cost/disruption than upgrading Carlisle-Carstairs?

Also, that only helps the England-Edinburgh trains. You'd still need to find some arrangements for the England-Glasgow ones (I don't know how viable routing via Kilmarnock would be).

 

[Highland37]

According to Scottish Government figures, Scotland is allocated 2% of the cost of HS2, while HS2 Ltd's figures suggest Scotland will receive approximately 6% of the economic benefits.

And if you believe "Scotland" will get 6% of the economic benefits I would suggest you are living in a parallel reality. Why do people still believe in the trickle down approach? It doesn't work.

 

[Altnabreac]

Perhaps.

HS2, if it reaches Scotland, might end up being what results in the full re-opening of the Borders route.

Upgrading the operational West Coast mainline was horrendously expensive and time consuming.

The accountant in me wonders if the cost of:-

Re-opening of Hawick-to-Carlisle
+
Closure, then total rebuild of Carlisle-Carstairs to HS2 standards

Would take less time and considerably less money than by upgrading and improving the WCML between Carlisle & Carstairs on a bitty basis.

You can't improve Carlisle - Carstairs to High Speed. Too windy.

A new line is needed and it has to serve Edinburgh and Glasgow. Hawick - Carlisle is entirely pointless to all except nostalgic enthusiasts. Never going to happen.

 

[snowball]

You can't improve Carlisle - Carstairs to High Speed. Too windy.

It took me a while to realise that Altnabreac means "windy" not in the sense of the Beaufort scale, but winding.

 

[edwin_m]

And if you believe "Scotland" will get 6% of the economic benefits I would suggest you are living in a parallel reality. Why do people still believe in the trickle down approach? It doesn't work.

With HS2 phases 1 and 2 as currently proposed, London to Glasgow and Edinburgh are about 45min quicker and Glasgow's hourly service would be doubled. Birmingham to Scotland trains would also be quicker. So I think it's entirely understandable that 6% of the benefits of HS2 would accrue to Scotland.

 

[47802]

Hawick - Carlisle is entirely pointless to all except nostalgic enthusiasts. Never going to happen.

Indeed Might you also say the same about Tweedbank - Hawick, does it really have a strong business case?

 

[oldman]

Indeed Might you also say the same about Tweedbank - Hawick, does it really have a strong business case?

Probably not, but it may have a bit of a political case.

 

[47271]

Political maybe, but to be more constructive about it, Hawick has a regeneration case.

There's nothing to regenerate south of there.

 

[oldman]

That's really what I meant. Regeneration can be presented as a political justification for what may be economically unjustifiable. In my view, Hawick falls into that category.

 

[fegguk]

Maybe. But the trouble is, that would only work if you upgrade/improve Edinburgh-Tweedbank first: As a minimum, in that scenario, the existing route would probably need to become double-track all the way to cope with all the diverted Edinburgh-England trains while Carlisle-Carstairs is closed (that'll mean rebuilding several bridges). Then you'd need to sort out the junction with the main line in Edinburgh. By the time you've done that, would you really have less cost/disruption than upgrading Carlisle-Carstairs?

Also, that only helps the England-Edinburgh trains. You'd still need to find some arrangements for the England-Glasgow ones (I don't know how viable routing via Kilmarnock would be).

There is only about 1 train and hour from Edinburgh to Carlisle. So it might not need that much infrastructure to accommodate. Just replace alternate stopping trains with a fast and tweak the exiting track and time table to accommodate. Probably not that simple but certainly possible.

 

[D1009]

Surely it would be the same trains as now, travelling further. Not extra trains.

I was responding to a comment about the use of the route for diversions. I agree the scheduled service would be an extension of the existing services.

 

[Kettledrum]

Personally, I can see a case for extending the line south from Tweedbank to Hawick. Beyond there, (as has been discussed many times on this forum & elsewhere), the population density is very low & there's relatively little potential for passenger traffic.

It may be nice to have an additional route as a diversionary option, but as mentioned earlier, wishes don't make a business case.

Business cases are notoriously difficult to predict the latent demand there is for rail travel....and often err on the wildly pessimistic side. The re-opening of the Borders route has wildly surpassed expectations in terms of passenger numbers. without the red herring of whether it could be used as a diversionary route.

I expect any further re-opening to do the same. I would also expect that should it be rebuilt or extended, it will be as a single line. We just have to make sure that there is plenty of scope for adding long and dynamic passing loops if demand keeps growing.

 

[Altnabreac]

Indeed Might you also say the same about Tweedbank - Hawick, does it really have a strong business case?

As others have said it won't have a great business case because it is too far from Edinburgh to attract many daily commuters.

Hawick does however have a population of 15,000 or so which is far in excess of anywhere else in the Borders except Gala and it has suffered from the decline of the Textile industry so has a decent regeneration case.

If rail can make a decent fist of serving the BGH (local hospital) and the Council HQ in Newtown St Boswells then it may perform a useful Intra Borders role as well as Edinburgh commuting thus helping the Hawick business case.

I suspect it still won't be a fantastic BCR but with Wider Economic Benefits (WEB) it may just be viable to Hawick.