Suggestions for solving Dawlish problem: electrification or new route?

[JamesRowden]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/iets-not-banned-through-dawlish-during-rough-seas.194401

The sea has other ideas!!! Keeps knocking out multiple engines. Oh dear oh dear. Bring back HSTs!!!

Or electrify the route

 

[geoffk]

That's why we still need the Okehampton route!

 

[Ash Bridge]

That's why we still need the Okehampton route!

Seconded!

 

[Monty]

Or electrify the route

Not sure if OHLE is going to be anymore resilient than the IETs on diesel power to be honest. That's why a Dawlish avoiding route needs to be seriously considered.

 

[AM9]

Not sure if OHLE is going to be anymore resilient than the IETs on diesel power to be honest. That's why a Dawlish avoiding route needs to be seriously considered.

OLE can be made weatherproof, there's plenty abroad but here in the UK, the line at Saltcoats does a pretty good job, see here:

The 802s have a 25kV bus on the roof that might need a bit of protection added.

 

[Monty]

OLE can be made weatherproof, there's plenty abroad but here in the UK, the line at Saltcoats does a pretty good job, see here:

The 802s have a 25kV bus on the roof that might need a bit of protection added.

I stand corrected! Something like that would do just the job. Though rather than coughing up money for the entire route to be electrified or for an avoiding route to be built I can totally see this government paying to electrify between Exeter and Newton Abbot only.

 

[Failed Unit]

I stand corrected! Something like that would do just the job. Though rather than coughing up money for the entire route to be electrified or for an avoidibg route to be built I can totally see this government paying to electrify between Exeter and Newton Abbot only.

That line does close from time to time. But not as frequently as the Devon route. The waves can be evil in Ayrshire.

 

[delt1c]

That's why we still need the Okehampton route!

Totaly agree, but the profit before passenger brigade will never do it. Lets see at the forth coming election if we can put passenger before profit. Now retreating to my Nuclear bunker before the flack starts.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Totaly agree, but the profit before passenger brigade will never do it. Lets see at the forth coming election if we can put passenger before profit. Now retreating to my Nuclear bunker before the flack starts.

Coward!

 

[Aictos]

Not sure if OHLE is going to be anymore resilient than the IETs on diesel power to be honest. That's why a Dawlish avoiding route needs to be seriously considered.

OHLE isn’t a issue for Dawlish as it would just be a higher voltage to cope with the salt water as I’m sure there’s a line in Scotland which sees rough seas just as bad as Dawlish and that’s electrified.

IIRC it’s set at 50Kv rather then the standard 25Kv to deal with the sea there?

 

[FFFC 57]

Totaly agree, but the profit before passenger brigade will never do it. Lets see at the forth coming election if we can put passenger before profit. Now retreating to my Nuclear bunker before the flack starts.

I agree entirely...

 

[380101]

OLE can be made weatherproof, there's plenty abroad but here in the UK, the line at Saltcoats does a pretty good job, see here:

The 802s have a 25kV bus on the roof that might need a bit of protection added.

This line is generally very resilient to the waves, with an improved sea wall having been built a few years ago doing away with the railings. However 380s regularly get "taken out" by large waves there and the line is closed more often now in severe weather to avoid units being stranded without power. I've had to drop the pan and coast through a few times to ensure no pan damage.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Not sure if OHLE is going to be anymore resilient than the IETs on diesel power to be honest. That's why a Dawlish avoiding route needs to be seriously considered.

Serious question.

If the GWR and their consultants (I think Merz & McLellan) thought electrification of the main line along the South Devon coast could be done in the 1930s (at 3kv DC overhead), why can't it be done resiliently 90 years later?

 

[Master29]

Serious question.

If the GWR and their consultants (I think Merz & McLellan) thought electrification of the main line along the South Devon coast could be done in the 1930s (at 3kv DC overhead), why can't it be done resiliently 90 years later?

One word that has shown contempt of the railways in this country since Marples and his cronies. Tories.

 

[Flinn Reed]

That's why we still need the Okehampton route!

If the Okehampton route were to be restored, this would enable emergency diversions, but would not work for regular service as Newton Abbot, Paignton and Totnes would lose direct connections towards London. Could the disused route via Chudleigh work as a possible diversion route? If this line were able to be rebuilt, perhaps long distance services could permanently avoid the sea wall, with local services on the Riviera line continuing to serve Dawlish and Teignmouth?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the Okehampton route were to be restored, this would enable emergency diversions, but would not work for regular service as Newton Abbot, Paignton and Totnes would lose direct connections towards London. Could the disused route via Chudleigh work as a possible diversion route? If this line were able to be rebuilt, perhaps long distance services could permanently avoid the sea wall, with local services on the Riviera line continuing to serve Dawlish and Teignmouth?

A reopening via Okehampton would not be a replacement for the current route, at least in the short-term... eventually the Dawlish route will unfortunately be lost, but until such time as it becomes unviable it will remain the primary route towards Plymouth and beyond.

Any alternative route will need to be able to generate its' own traffic, if the only reason it exists is to provide a diversion then it won't be worth pursuing in the short-term.

 

[class26]

One word that has shown contempt of the railways in this country since Marples and his cronies. Tories.

Those dreadful Tories who have electrified far more miles of line than Labour ever have.

 

[edwin_m]

Serious question.

If the GWR and their consultants (I think Merz & McLellan) thought electrification of the main line along the South Devon coast could be done in the 1930s (at 3kv DC overhead), why can't it be done resiliently 90 years later?

A few thoughts:

3kV might have been less prone to short circuits due to lower risk of arcing.

Generally less concern about health and safety issues then - a less risk averse management might have allowed operation to continue when today it would be stopped.

Even with electrification, plenty of steam locos still around to drag the trains in the event of a loss of power.

One word that has shown contempt of the railways in this country since Marples and his cronies. Tories.

Those dreadful Tories who have electrified far more miles of line than Labour ever have.

This was a technical not a political question.

 

[Master29]

Those dreadful Tories who have electrified far more miles of line than Labour ever have.

...And also closed down more mileage of track than any other government. Seeing as labour have hardly been in power since Harold Wilson (Blairs cronies not included) of course they`ve electrified more so a pointless answer.

 

[Master29]

Any alternative route will need to be able to generate its' own traffic, if the only reason it exists is to provide a diversion then it won't be worth pursuing in the short-term.

Really, generate it`s own traffic. Have you ever used this route? You`ve already admitted that Dawlish will eventually be lost so why not start planning now? If it won`t be worth pursuing short term we`ll all just wait until Dawlish disappears from Google Earth then we`ll have a repeat of the 2014 fiasco only worse. Great idea that...

 

[class26]

...And also closed down more mileage of track than any other government. Seeing as labour have hardly been in power since Harold Wilson (Blairs cronies not included) of course they`ve electrified more so a pointless answer.

Well i seem to remember at the elections when Blair was elected the ballot papers said LABOUR. May not be what you think labour ought to be but it was labour

 

[Grumbler]

...And also closed down more mileage of track than any other government. Seeing as labour have hardly been in power since Harold Wilson (Blairs cronies not included) of course they`ve electrified more so a pointless answer.

Harold Wilson's goverment continued the programme of rail closures recommended by Beeching.

 

[twpsaesneg]

OHLE isn’t a issue for Dawlish as it would just be a higher voltage to cope with the salt water as I’m sure there’s a line in Scotland which sees rough seas just as bad as Dawlish and that’s electrified.

IIRC it’s set at 50Kv rather then the standard 25Kv to deal with the sea there?

No, the line voltage is the same, however there is greater insulation between live and earthed parts and the catenary wire is replaced with contenary (contact wire used in place of catenary wire).

 

[Master29]

Harold Wilson's goverment continued the programme of rail closures recommended by Beeching.

Indeed. Mainly Tory but Labour must perhaps share their part in this. Marples and his cronies the main culprits. Makes you wonder who actually runs the country.

 

[coppercapped]

...And also closed down more mileage of track than any other government. Seeing as labour have hardly been in power since Harold Wilson (Blairs cronies not included) of course they`ve electrified more so a pointless answer.

Dr. Beeching proposed, the Government disposed...

...and the Secretaries of State for Transport between October 1964 and June 1969 - during whose watches most of the closures proposed in the first Beeching report were approved (including some that were not) - were Tom Fraser, Barbara Castle, Richard Marsh and Fred Mulley. All of these were members of Harold Wilson's Labour government.

Still - never let facts get in the way of a good rant, huh?

 

[coppercapped]

Really, generate it`s own traffic. Have you ever used this route? You`ve already admitted that Dawlish will eventually be lost so why not start planning now? If it won`t be worth pursuing short term we`ll all just wait until Dawlish disappears from Google Earth then we`ll have a repeat of the 2014 fiasco only worse. Great idea that...

Do keep up! There are already outline plans for a diversionary route inland from Dawlish running nearly directly from Exeter to Newton Abbott. This will permit trains to continue to serve Newton Abbott and Torbay directly as well as Plymouth and Cornwall.

This has all been done to death before in other threads.

 

[Master29]

Do keep up! There are already outline plans for a diversionary route inland from Dawlish running nearly directly from Exeter to Newton Abbott. This will permit trains to continue to serve Newton Abbott and Torbay directly as well as Plymouth and Cornwall.

This has all been done to death before in other threads.

..And not acted upon it seems

 

[Master29]

Dr. Beeching proposed, the Government disposed...

...and the Secretaries of State for Transport between October 1964 and June 1969 - during whose watches most of the closures proposed in the first Beeching report were approved (including some that were not) - were Tom Fraser, Barbara Castle, Richard Marsh and Fred Mulley. All of these were members of Harold Wilson's Labour government.

Still - never let facts get in the way of a good rant, huh?

Of which I already stated. You conveniently forget Marples though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Really, generate it`s own traffic. Have you ever used this route? You`ve already admitted that Dawlish will eventually be lost so why not start planning now? If it won`t be worth pursuing short term we`ll all just wait until Dawlish disappears from Google Earth then we`ll have a repeat of the 2014 fiasco only worse. Great idea that...

My point is that diversions alone won't justify the investment in an alternative route, so the route selected for a second line will need to generate traffic of its own (rather than abstracting from the coast route) for the next 30+ years outside of the few days each year that the Dawlish route is unavailable.

 

[coppercapped]

..And not acted upon it seems

How observant!

(This is a Web Forum - it is not Planning Central of Network Rail or the DfT. What on earth are you expecting?)