Suggestions for XC routes post EWR and other projects

[Robert Taggart]

Nottingham - Cardiff via Northampton and Bristol !

Never mind the reopening of the Varsity Line - what about the completely forgotten Welland / Brampton Valley (Market Harborough - Northampton) Line ?

This would provide a most useful link between the growing towns of the 'South Midlands' (Milton Keynes, Northampton) with the already well established towns of the East Midlands AND Yorkshire and the North East ultimately.

Ergo - the Railways own M1 !

Methinks the Welland Valley Line be far too precious to leave to 'peddle power' not to mention those hapless enthusiasts who have gone nowhere beyond Pitsford in over a generation !

 

[martynbristow]

I'm confused as to why the current situation needs to be changed.
What are the passenger flows between Liverpool and Norwich?
When I've been on it most people change every major station and its basically a big shuttle between lots of cities and NOT an IC service.
If you want to go to Cambridge its quicker to go via London and Norwich is equivalent.
If you want to move this train somewhere it should go to TP which already have the operations in the area to facilitate it.

How would these services benefits XC as they operate 2 fleets currently are you proposing XC taking on 158's or reshuffling the stock?

 

[swt_passenger]

As has been discussed in a recent 'GW based' thread, there is no inherent need for the XC franchise to be involved in EWR at all.

Yes, NR are referring to a 'cross country' type of service from Manchester to Basingstoke via EWR (in the Western route study draft) - but that doesn't automatically imply that anything else about the core routes of the present XC franchise (i.e. via New St) will be altered at all.

 

[The Planner]

More likely to see IR's call at Winslow than Bicester Town.

Wouldn't put money on that if I were you....

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I personally would like to see a second service per hour between Leeds and Birmingham.

One of which should be extended to Bradford, Britain's 10th biggest city.

Heathrow Airport should also be on the XC network.

 

[Philip Elliott]

its basically a big shuttle between lots of cities and NOT an IC service

Please get a dictionary.:-x

 

[PHILIPE]

We have a XC topic with differently worded titles cropping every so often and which are just full of pipe dreams and pie in the sky ideas without any thought of issues such as funding, pathing or resourcing and which seem to want to run over all parts of the UK and also re-instating routes which have been abandoned usually for very good reasons.

 

[work-traveller]

Wouldn't put money on that if I were you....

It's somewhat woolly at the moment, but if I was a betting man, I would likely go with the DfT and EWR Consortium and have a wager on Winslow

 

[Andyjs247]

It's somewhat woolly at the moment, but if I was a betting man, I would likely go with the DfT and EWR Consortium and have a wager on Winslow

I don't see any logic in stopping at Winslow but not at Bicester (unless you're talking about services between MK and Marylebone not operated by XC?). Apart from anything else, Bicester is better connected being one of the fastest growing towns in the country at the moment (it is set to become the second biggest town in Oxfordshire). Winslow has a bit of catching up to do!

XC services post EWR opening are very much TBC. The service pattern would also depend on what stock would operate it. 125mph stock would be nice but not necessarily ideal for a semi fast service. I'd anticipate all services would probably be stopping at Bicester but places like Winslow and Bletchley may not get fast services on EWR.

I believe there is 1tph path for XC services pencilled in for EWR. Presumably this is a fast service, extra to that planned to link Reading with MK/Bedford which is likely a semi-fast. My thinking is that this semi-fast Reading - MK/Bedford could be extended at each end - say starting back at Northampton or Corby and running through to Heathrow or Basingstoke. The fast service might be something like Manchester or Sheffield/Nottingham to Southampton. As a long distance service it should be 125mph stock ideally. But I don't think it makes any sense to run a fast XC from Manchester or Sheffield through to Bristol via EWR. It's too much of a detour on a journey which should be quicker via Birmingham. Whilst I would like to see fast services from Bristol via EWR, I do think semi-fast is more sensible.

Whilst FGW do stop HSTs at various smaller stations now, it is not really the best use of IC stock. If say Corsham had a station open now I daresay it would be an HST that stopped but this ought to be EMU territory.

As jimm says, a semi-fast EMU could be the service to link those places like Corsham, Wootton Bassett, Grove/Wantage which don't yet have stations with Swindon, Oxford and beyond. It should also serve Didcot with a reversal there. Running as far as MK/Bedford is fine for now, but going forward the optimum destination on this axis would eventually be Cambridge or Norwich -when the central section of EWR gets built. Some trains could maybe start back at Cardiff.

 

[The Planner]

Id pay up now then, the IRs (depending on your definition of them), won't stop at Winslow. 125mph stock doesn't matter as it won't be more than 100mph linespeed as south of Bicester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I don't think it makes any sense to run a fast XC from Manchester or Sheffield through to Bristol via EWR. It's too much of a detour on a journey which should be quicker via Birmingham. Whilst I would like to see fast services from Bristol via EWR, I do think semi-fast is more sensible.

Wouldn't be so sure about that, depending on what they do stop wise on the Trent Valley, they should be quicker north of Oxford as they don't have the slog from New St to Wolves. They wouldn't be put in as an alternative to the existing anyway, it is to do with opening more journey opportunities elsewhere.

 

[HowardGWR]

I can't help noting that this discussion has often been about what XC or some other franchise would be prepared to promote (including contribution from people working in the industry). See foregoing.

Are we to accept that what services are to be run in future should be left to what private companies feel like running, or do we have a government that is supposed to be in charge of strategic planning and implementation of transport through DfT and Network Rail?

This point in no way detracts from the initiatives from enterprising companies such as Chiltern and SWT, and the Route Study work of NR, but it does make one wonder whether the tail is wagging the dog in this discussion.

 

[martynbristow]

I don't see any logic in stopping at Winslow but not at Bicester (unless you're talking about services between MK and Marylebone not operated by XC?). Apart from anything else, Bicester is better connected being one of the fastest growing towns in the country at the moment (it is set to become the second biggest town in Oxfordshire). Winslow has a bit of catching up to do!

XC services post EWR opening are very much TBC. The service pattern would also depend on what stock would operate it. 125mph stock would be nice but not necessarily ideal for a semi fast service. I'd anticipate all services would probably be stopping at Bicester but places like Winslow and Bletchley may not get fast services on EWR.

I believe there is 1tph path for XC services pencilled in for EWR. Presumably this is a fast service, extra to that planned to link Reading with MK/Bedford which is likely a semi-fast. My thinking is that this semi-fast Reading - MK/Bedford could be extended at each end - say starting back at Northampton or Corby and running through to Heathrow or Basingstoke. The fast service might be something like Manchester or Sheffield/Nottingham to Southampton. As a long distance service it should be 125mph stock ideally. But I don't think it makes any sense to run a fast XC from Manchester or Sheffield through to Bristol via EWR. It's too much of a detour on a journey which should be quicker via Birmingham. Whilst I would like to see fast services from Bristol via EWR, I do think semi-fast is more sensible.

Whilst FGW do stop HSTs at various smaller stations now, it is not really the best use of IC stock. If say Corsham had a station open now I daresay it would be an HST that stopped but this ought to be EMU territory.

As jimm says, a semi-fast EMU could be the service to link those places like Corsham, Wootton Bassett, Grove/Wantage which don't yet have stations with Swindon, Oxford and beyond. It should also serve Didcot with a reversal there. Running as far as MK/Bedford is fine for now, but going forward the optimum destination on this axis would eventually be Cambridge or Norwich -when the central section of EWR gets built. Some trains could maybe start back at Cardiff.

Whats the objective of any EWR service. XC has a clear link between the North, Birmingham and the South linking key destinations.
If you look at Transpenine now the Liverpool-Newcastle via Victoria shaves off like 60 minutes of the total journey all the way. It makes it much more friendly to long distance passengers but some people object to the idea that it doesn't serve piccadilly and doesn't stop everywhere. The point is everyone has there own preference where the train should stop.
Is there any demand for passengers from Winslow and Bicester going East West longer distance, otherwise there will be slow services.
I don't see any purpose in diverting the CORE XC services away from Birmingham because it completely defeats the object of changing at Birmingham.

I can't help noting that this discussion has often been about what XC or some other franchise would be prepared to promote (including contribution from people working in the industry). See foregoing.

Are we to accept that what services are to be run in future should be left to what private companies feel like running, or do we have a government that is supposed to be in charge of strategic planning and implementation of transport through DfT and Network Rail?

This point in no way detracts from the initiatives from enterprising companies such as Chiltern and SWT, and the Route Study work of NR, but it does make one wonder whether the tail is wagging the dog in this discussion.

Why should the railways be dictated by politicians in central government and the commercial benefit completely ignored. The railway should run itself independently without excessive interference, the government should regulate not micromanage.

 

[Martin_1981]

When the EWL is open, as far as XC services go, I would say the current Newcastle-Reading/Southampton service should be re routed to run via Leicester and the EWL to Oxford and maybe extend the service to Bournemouth. This could run on alternative hours with a Sheffield/Nottingham- Bristol service via EWL, Oxford, Swindon and Bath, with possibly one or two trains extended to run to Exeter/Plymouth and maybe Paignton on summer Sats. This would give an hourly service between Sheffield and Oxford, so could be something like:-
Newcastle-Bournemouth (every 2 hours)
Newcastle
Durham
Darlington
York
Doncaster
Sheffield
Nottingham
Leicester
Bedford
Oxford
Reading
Basingstoke
Winchester
S'ton Airport
S'ton
Brockenhurst
Bournemouth
Possible extension to Weymouth on Summer Sats

Sheffield-Bristol (every 2 hours)

Sheffield
Chesterfield
Nottingham
Leicester
Bedford
Oxford
Swindon
Bath Spa
Bristol Temple Meads

1 or 2 trains a day extended to Plymouth calling at Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter, Newton Abbot, Totnes & Plymouth.

 

[The Planner]

So the existing service to New St is cut from 2 to 1? Not going to happen.

 

[Martin_1981]

So the existing service to New St is cut from 2 to 1? Not going to happen.

I suppose this doesn't need to happen, as the service could run as separate services between Newcastle and Birmingham, and between Birmingham and Reading/Southampton. Or keep the service as is, as a supplementary service.

 

[DarloRich]

I suppose this doesn't need to happen, as the service could run as separate services between Newcastle and Birmingham, and between Birmingham and Reading/Southampton. Or keep the service as is, as a supplementary service.

god! for the millionth time: XC will not reduce service provision to Birmingham. It is the centre of their network and the source of much revenue! They want to INCREASE the number of trains forced through New Street.

You are right it doesn't need to happen and it wont!

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree and I just don't get the constant proposals for completely different XC routes.

We know from the various RUSs and more recent route studies, published over at least 5 years or more, that NR and XC actually want to extend the second hourly Reading service to Southampton (not e.g. Brighton, or Heathrow), they want to run both NE services via Leeds, and both SE services via Coventry, and the only official version (so far) of a possible 'cross country' via EWR appears to be a Manchester > Trent Valley > Bletchley > Reading > Basingstoke.

Nothing I've seen anywhere suggests they are considering reducing services through New St, or altering the core network, so why do so many threads/posts want to completely re-invent the XC route pattern?

 

[Rich McLean]

Providing there is enough stock at the time,

Penzance/Plymouth-Edinburgh/Glasgow C/Aberdeen (No change) - 1tph
Manchester - Bristol (plus existing extensions) via New Street (as now)
Bournemouth - Manchester via New Street (no change) - 1tph
Southampton(1tp2hr)/Reading - Newcastle via New Street & Doncaster - (no change) 1tph
Nottingham - New Street (loses 1tph Cardiff extension)


New Services:
Heathrow - Manchester
1tph calling at Heathrow, Reading, Oxford, Bicester Village, Milton Keynes, Crewe, Stockport & Manchester Picc.

1tph Cardiff - York via Leeds calling at Cardiff Central, Newport, Caldicot (1tp2hr), Chepstow (1tp2hr), Lydney (1tp2hr), Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, University, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds & York.

The above keeps the status Quo, plus adding an extra train per hour to Manchester from the Thames Valley avoiding Birmingham and adding that Extra needed 1tph through the core via Leeds to York.

Extra Paths required (maximum timing load)
1tph New Street - York via Leeds (125mph)
1tph Heathrow - Reading - Oxford (125mph)
1tph Milton Keynes - Manchester Picc via Crewe (110mph or 125mph with tilting stock)

The big sticking point is the last one. Pointless sending another tph away from Manchester and up the MML, plus the extra tph to Leeds needs to go via New Street. Paths are scarce.
If paths are an issue between Birmingham and Derby, then a bit of splitting maybe in order for a Cardiff - York/Nottingham splitting at Derby, and calling at Tamworth & Burton-on-Trent) with the other Brum - Nottingham all shacks as of now

However, I feel the above seems more realistic, without too many drastic changes to the network as a whole

 

[backontrack]

When will this stop at University, Ashchurch and Chester-Le-Street?

I would like to see one service, that instead of going York-Darlington-Durham/Newcastle, goes York, Stockton, Durham/Newcastle along an upgraded Stillington line. This would then give Middlesbrough, Stockton & Hartlepool better connections and a rail service that is useful to "ALL" areas of Teesside.

Yes.

 

[life210]

I would like to see double voyagers cater for peak times across the whole route, not just Birmingham new street

Also 2 trains per hour leeds to birmingham... maybe via Leicester if it is feasible.

 

[43074]

When will this stop at University, Ashchurch and Chester-Le-Street?

No need:
University is served by a frequent CrossCity service from New Street, every 10 minutes plus CrossCountry services between Nottingham and Cardiff.

Ashchurch is served by local services and with the new Worcestershire Parkway station there will be less reason to stop the main XC services there.

Chester-le-Street is served adequately by TPE, and there is one service a day from XC.

 

[TheWalrus]

I Would have a Birmingham to Hull service so the Doncaster calls can be taken out of the Edinburgh-Plymouths and diverted via Leeds. I would also bring back West Coast to South Coast/South West every two hours either as an additional service or taking back the VWC service. I also think Liverpool should be served and maybe Blackpool during the summer.