Summons by TIL on behalf of Chiltern and a lying ticket enforcer

[ainsworth74]

This is how i see it.

Absolutely and I don't feel qualified to comment on how likely or otherwise such a defence would be to succeed! But just so that you can hopefully appreciate the importance of still needing to be able to evidence the defence that someone is relying on even though they have the benefit of the presumption of innocence.

 

[CarrotPie]

Defendandt: You are looking for a conviction here. you first accused me of short ticketing and thought this was one of multiple offences, once proved this wasn't the case you changed your offence you wanted to convict me under. We followed advice. As a gesture we are prepared to share our trainline accounts to prove we also buy tickets. this was the first time we couldn't and followed your staff members advice
Let's talk about your witness. His bodycam footage will prove he said, by us giving us our details we can pay for the ticket and we won't recieve a fine or any convinctions. he must of known this wasn't the case and lied. So how can we be sure his witness statmenet is honest

That seems very provocand and aggressive - not what you want in court. Also, the law is in their favour here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can my partner settle out of court when TIL never replied to her through email or letter. She was wanting to settle out of court but was waiting for their reply to her email which she never received.

Anecdotally from postings on here this can be achieved by finding the prosecutor on the day of the trial and requesting to settle in person. The Court will probably tell you who it is.

That seems very provocand and aggressive - not what you want in court. Also, the law is in their favour here.

Certainly if tried it'd need to be in far more Parliamentary language than the example given.

I too can't formally comment on its likely success as I'm not a legal professional - but as a layman I'd not give it much chance and would be seeking to settle if at all possible.

 

[simonw]

That's a great way to see it.

Prosecution: We believe the defendant is guilty because they failed to produce a valid ticket, here is the signed witness statement of our revenue officer saying that they did not have a valid ticket and they are available to come and give oral testimony and answer questions if required.
Defendant: Ah but I was authorised to travel without a ticket!
Prosecution: Authorised by who?
Defendant: an agent working on the ticket machine, so we asked him for advice he said to board the train and eithier buy from the guard or at the next station, this advice is also backed on chilterns website. So we followed advice by the agent and chiltern's website
Prosecution: Here are our maintenance records for the time in question which show that there no maintenance being done at the applicable time.
Defendant: Well we certainly spoke with someone who was working on the machines, the machine was open and thus we couldn't buy a ticket. Maybe he was refilling the tickets, CCTV will prove my verisoin of events
Prosecution: Even if that is true contractors working on Ticket Machines are not authorised to give permission to travel and so would not do this. However what was the name of this person so we can check our own records and those of our contractors?
Defendant: Someone working on an offical ticket machine with a id badge, this means it would be reasonable for a member of the public to assume this person was authoirsed. So going forward everytime i get advice from a member of your staff do you recomened i take their name and even take a photo of them for a description.
Prosecution: A description?
Defendant: Well they were male...
Prosecution: So all you can tell us is that someone, whose name you don't know, was working on a the TVMs, which we have no record of, told you that you could travel without a valid ticket, something that they wouldn't have done anyway as they know not to, whilst we have a witness statement demonstrating that you had no valid ticket and no other reason for not having a valid ticket?

Defendandt: You are looking for a conviction here. you first accused me of short ticketing and thought this was one of multiple offences, once proved this wasn't the case you changed your offence you wanted to convict me under. We followed advice. As a gesture we are prepared to share our trainline accounts to prove we also buy tickets. this was the first time we couldn't and followed your staff members advice
Let's talk about your witness. His bodycam footage will prove he said, by us giving us our details we can pay for the ticket and we won't recieve a fine or any convinctions. he must of known this wasn't the case and lied. So how can we be sure his witness statmenet is honest

This is how i see it. i am at work typing this fast. so spelling mistake there may be


How can my partner settle out of court when TIL never replied to her through email or letter. She was wanting to settle out of court but was waiting for their reply to her email which she never received.

Well you can try that approach but: the railway company have proof you travelled without a ticket, you have no proof that you were given permission to do so. It's for you to prove you had permission or at the very least establish in the mind of the court that you had reasonable grounds to think you had such permission.
I don't think you can do so, esp with the way you word things on here. Perhaps your partner will have a better way with words.

 

[benjamin11111]

Anecdotally from postings on here this can be achieved by finding the prosecutor on the day of the trial and requesting to settle in person. The Court will probably tell you who it is.



Certainly if tried it'd need to be in far more Parliamentary language than the example given.

I too can't formally comment on its likely success as I'm not a legal professional - but as a layman I'd not give it much chance and would be seeking to settle if at all possible.

i'm just getting all of your opinions which i really do appreciate so thank-you everyone for the time taken.

the cost to settle will be very high, i'm assuming. For the time being there's not much more to say. My partner is down this evening and i'll look through the documents and update everyone as it unfolds.

If we go to court i'll keep updating as it progresses as it might help someone down the line.

If anyone has any question let me know

 

[AndroidBango]

Hi all it's me again,

There is a massive update.

The situation is still the same but now it concerns my partner. My partner received the intial letter from TIL and she replied via email. She never received a reply by email or post. PLEASE NOTE: she lives at student halls in University and letters can easily go missing. Today after being away for a while, due to the the Easter break, she found a letter. It was a court summons. Basically TIL had sent replies to my partner but since she never received she didn't reply hence they went down the route to prosecute.

Am I barking up the wrong tree, or would any problems have stemmed from the OP's partner replying to the initial letter by email rather than letter?

 

[AlterEgo]

@benjamin11111 Please, listen to people who are giving you the benefit of their advice. You wisely chose to settle after Chiltern completely blasted open your defence, after they had taken the very rare step of outlining exactly why they would be able to prove you weren’t being truthful.

For whatever reason, your girlfriend received no correspondence until the court summons. It’s extremely unlikely Chiltern didn’t *send* any correspondence and you yourself even say her post is unreliable as she is in halls. It was unwise for her to assume that Chiltern might just forget about her case.

You did not want the risk and hassle of going to court and risking an almost certain criminal record. I don’t know why you are entertaining the idea of putting your partner through it instead.

 

[benjamin11111]

Am I barking up the wrong tree, or would any problems have stemmed from the OP's partner replying to the initial letter by email rather than letter?

it says on the letter to reply via email or post.

@benjamin11111 Please, listen to people who are giving you the benefit of their advice. You wisely chose to settle after Chiltern completely blasted open your defence, after they had taken the very rare step of outlining exactly why they would be able to prove you weren’t being truthful.

For whatever reason, your girlfriend received no correspondence until the court summons. It’s extremely unlikely Chiltern didn’t *send* any correspondence and you yourself even say her post is unreliable as she is in halls. It was unwise for her to assume that Chiltern might just forget about her case.

You did not want the risk and hassle of going to court and risking an almost certain criminal record. I don’t know why you are entertaining the idea of putting your partner through it instead.

at the end of the day, it's not my partners job to seek TIL. She replied to them via email, and if they sent letters which didn't arrive that is out of our control. For the time being there's nothing more to be said. I'll keep you all updated.

My partner is willing to settle, but i know their new price to settle would be far to high to afford. Once they give us a price to settle i'll update.

I understand people's advice and i appreciate it a-lot, it just seems depending on their new settle price, it will most likely go to court. I'm only dealing with this as it comes.

 

[CarrotPie]

at the end of the day, it's not my partners job to seek TIL. She replied to them via email, and if they sent letters which didn't arrive that is out of our control.

It is if you want to settle with them! If you don't care about the punishment, it isn't.

 

[WesternLancer]

If it's not possible to get a settlement before the court date (or the new court date) then the advice a few posts before about seeking out the prosecutor in person ahead of the case hearing on the day, to agree a settlement if at all possible at the 11th hour, does seem a good option to try and pursue, in my opinion.
as per post #273

 

[skyhigh]

Have you heard from the court?

If the hearing went ahead in your absence (with your knowledge it was happening) any talk of settlement is pointless.

 

[Llanigraham]

on the definitions of the bylaws it says an authorized person is
“authorized person” means:

1.a person acting in the course of his duties who:

(a) is an employee or agent of an operator

Surely someone working on the ticket machines. then it is reasonable to assume that he is authorized, as he an agent of the operator

So a "mechanic" who was working on a ticket machine to service or repair it, is an authorised person? They probably don't even work for the ToC.

 

[AlterEgo]

So a "mechanic" who was working on a ticket machine to service or repair it, is an authorised person? They probably don't even work for the ToC.

It’s already been established that Chiltern have good evidence that no such person was there. As soon as it was made clear in the thread it was in fact up to the OP to substantiate their claim they apparently immediately and miraculously found a voice recording of said encounter, which eviscerated their credibility.

 

[benjamin11111]

Have you heard from the court?

If the hearing went ahead in your absence (with your knowledge it was happening) any talk of settlement is pointless.

court hearing adjourned to 1st of May

 

[Bletchleyite]

court hearing adjourned to 1st of May

Good news. Now your efforts need to go to settling like you did for yourself.

Don't let a personal desire to play legal hero cause your other half to get a much higher financial penalty and potentially a criminal record.

 

[benjamin11111]

It’s already been established that Chiltern have good evidence that no such person was there. As soon as it was made clear in the thread it was in fact up to the OP to substantiate their claim they apparently immediately and miraculously found a voice recording of said encounter, which eviscerated their credibility.

i can't prove for certain there was someone working on the machine, but i know there was as i saw it with my own eyes and was told to get a ticket at the next stop. The only way to prove he was working on the machine is cctv, which has most likely been deleted by now.

Right now is it cheaper to be found guilty and get a fine then pay TIL's new settlement price.

Also in terms of finding the prosecutor i'll attempt to do that and try and convince him to let my partner settle, i'll update you if i find him or not.

Also does anyone know is it even possibile to settle, even though their is a court date

Good news. Now your efforts need to go to settling like you did for yourself.

Don't let a personal desire to play legal hero cause your other half to get a much higher financial penalty and potentially a criminal record.

i'll see what i can do.

Not my intention to play legal hero, just to get advice from everyone which i'm thank-full for.

I think the penalty of being found guilty can't be that high. As the judge wouldn't let a massive fine cause someone to not be able to afford rent. That's just my logical brain there

 

[skyhigh]

Right now is it cheaper to be found guilty and get a fine then pay TIL's new settlement price.

You can't say that, you don't know what TIL would be willing to settle for.

Also does anyone know is it even possibile to settle, even though their is a court date

Yes, you can theoretically arrange a settlement right up until the point that the case is heard in court.

I think the penalty of being found guilty can't be that high. As the judge wouldn't let a massive fine cause someone to not be able to afford rent. That's just my logical brain there

You are probably looking in the region of £400 for a court fine plus the associated criminal record, though it is usually possible to arrange to pay in instalments (which is very unlikely with a settlement offer from TIL).

 

[WesternLancer]

i can't prove for certain there was someone working on the machine, but i know there was as i saw it with my own eyes and was told to get a ticket at the next stop. The only way to prove he was working on the machine is cctv, which has most likely been deleted by now.

Right now is it cheaper to be found guilty and get a fine then pay TIL's new settlement price.

Also in terms of finding the prosecutor i'll attempt to do that and try and convince him to let my partner settle, i'll update you if i find him or not.

Also does anyone know is it even possibile to settle, even though their is a court date

Yes, I think they do settle even when on course for a set court date (can't guarantee it for TIL but there is a chance and thus you should pursue it constructively) - others will correct me if needs be but if you get offered a settlement but can't afford it that does not preclude turning down the settlement and seeing what the court does - but they would not then offer another settlement, I doubt, if you changed your mind and wanted to pay it after all.

Your girlfriend should be aware that a guilty verdict in court might result in other costs that affect her in due course however, which could ultimately cost more - eg potential hassle getting jobs with the criminal record, maybe possible impact on getting credit in future for example, higher costs for car insurance, that sort of thing.

 

[Titfield]

Yes, I think they do settle even when on course for a set court date (can't guarantee it for TIL but there is a chance and thus you should pursue it constructively) - others will correct me if needs be but if you get offered a settlement but can't afford it that does not preclude turning down the settlement and seeing what the court does - but they would not then offer another settlement, I doubt, if you changed your mind and wanted to pay it after all.

Your girlfriend should be aware that a guilty verdict in court might result in other costs that affect her in due course however, which could ultimately cost more - eg potential hassle getting jobs with the criminal record, maybe possible impact on getting credit in future for example, higher costs for car insurance, that sort of thing.

It is a brave person who would choose the uncertainty of a court case and all its associated implications versus the certainty of an out of court settlement.

Once an out of court settlement is paid that is it but a guilty verdict in court could have repercussions which could reverberate for a long time. You may think that you would be clear of the implications after x years but just when you have forgotten about it.......

and at the risk of being melodramatic how much value does your partner put on her reputation? how much value do you put on her reputation?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Now that court has been put back to 1 May, you and your partner have the chance to see whether an out of court settlement can be offered. If one is offered but your partner doesn't like the terms, it remains open to them to take their chance in court.

So to my mind your partner has nothing to lose by trying for an out of court settlement. So it would make sense to start the process of getting in touch with TIL and seeing what (if anything) they will offer.

Also, try to price what a fine would amount to. You've already been advised that a minimum income of £120 per week is assumed for calculating the fine: you also need to consider that there will also be a surcharge, court costs and prosecution costs to add on. Someone may well be along shortly to say how much these are likely to be - but it's our general experience that almost any out of court settlement is cheaper than almost any fine.

 

[Fredtheshred]

You settled to avoid a criminal record. Why the deja-vu?

 

[benjamin11111]

i'll see what we can do about a settlement price and will update when i hear back

You settled to avoid a criminal record. Why the deja-vu?

i settled to avoid the hassle of going to court. Days missed out on work would of cost me more eventually. That's why i settled

 

[Llanigraham]

i can't prove for certain there was someone working on the machine, but i know there was as i saw it with my own eyes and was told to get a ticket at the next stop. The only way to prove he was working on the machine is cctv, which has most likely been deleted by now.

Therefore the CCTV is immaterial.

Right now is it cheaper to be found guilty and get a fine then pay TIL's new settlement price.

Are you sure about that?
And don't forget the Criminal Record

Also in terms of finding the prosecutor i'll attempt to do that and try and convince him to let my partner settle, i'll update you if i find him or not.

Good luck.,

Not my intention to play legal hero, just to get advice from everyone which i'm thank-full for.

I think the penalty of being found guilty can't be that high. As the judge wouldn't let a massive fine cause someone to not be able to afford rent. That's just my logical brain there

This will be heard at a Magistrates Court so it is unlikely to be a Judge but 3 Magistrates, who are "your peers" and the fine will be set according to the Rules, and whether the rent can be paid or not will have nothing to do with it.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It is a brave person who would choose the uncertainty of a court case and all its associated implications versus the certainty of an out of court settlement.

OP wasn't brave enough for his own case to proceed to court but seems willing to risk his partner's finances and criminal record to prove a point, with a seemingly slim chance of success, even to the extent of proposing defending his partner himself.

I don't want to be too blunt, but anything other than coming to an administrative settlement now, to put it behind them and get on with life, is foolhardy. It seems the OP has seen the light through more recent posts, and it's both unfortunate that the court proceedings were learned of with almost no notice, and fortunate enough that this letter arrived and was opened just in time to have it postponed.

 

[AlterEgo]

i can't prove for certain there was someone working on the machine

Despite your earlier assertion - immediately after being told it was up to you to substantiate your side of the story - that you had a voice recording of explicit permission to travel (how very convenient!) which you doubled and tripled down on. One might think that was outstanding and compelling evidence, but it obviously does not exist. You did not even post in in the thread. All you have done is waste everyone's time and now you are mulling whether it is worth risking your partner's clean record and reputation, as well as her finances. You now need to tackle the issue head on.

Also does anyone know is it even possibile to settle, even though their is a court date

Yes it is - you can settle up to the actual court date itself, so I strongly urge your partner to contact Chiltern to settle in the same manner you did.

I think the penalty of being found guilty can't be that high. As the judge wouldn't let a massive fine cause someone to not be able to afford rent. That's just my logical brain there

You would be wrong, and naive, and frankly not a very good partner to let her go through the rigamarole of court, with the strong possibility of a criminal record. You don't even seem to realise there is no judge involved here; cases are heard at the magistrates' court. You have been given good advice about the level of fine which will be a certainty for your partner, given she will declare "no income". It is possible to pay in instalments but it will be a criminal punishment and will have to be paid. It takes priority over all other debts and obligations - even rent, even student fees.

The level of fine is not negotiable, and remember that on top of this, your partner will need to pay Chiltern's costs, as well as a (victim) surcharge. It is not cheaper at all, and she will end up with a criminal record.

 

[Hadders]

Now that the court case has been adjourned there's nothing more we can add at the moment.

@benjamin11111 please report this post when you have an update (by clicking the 'report' button in the bottom left of this post) and the Moderating Team will re-open the thread for you.