Sunday a ATW train free day again

[merlodlliw]

So, Bob, does ATW only have a binding contract to only run 3 trains on a Sunday outside their initial franchise agreement?

correct, ATW is only obliged to run the trains (3) as a result of it winning the 15 year contract, the other 3 *(2 pre noon, one late p.m.) are paid for by Wrexham County Council.

Similar payment is made by Powys/Carmarthen/Gwynedd Councils to run the Sunday Pwlhelli/Mach and the 2 trains on the HOWL, I presume a similar may occur in West Wales,

All these costings would have to be taken up by WAG, if the County Councils pulled out. Gwynedd Council BTW pays for buses on Sunday between Llandudno & Bleanau in place of trains

in the Autumn/ Winter & spring. It only pays for the Sunday trains on this line in Summer.

 

[Pacerpilot]

and it's no longer just Sundays that are affected.....This direct from ASLEF's Twitter pager...

"Arriva Trains Wales #ASLEF members vote for strike action by 92% on an 89% return #ATW"

"#ATW #ASLEF strike dates are 19, 26 and 27th November"

http://twitter.com/aslefunion

I hope no one intended to catch the train to Watch the Rugby at the Millennium Stadium...

 

[merlodlliw]

and it's no longer just Sundays that are affected.....This direct from ASLEF's Twitter pager...

"Arriva Trains Wales #ASLEF members vote for strike action by 92% on an 89% return #ATW"

"#ATW #ASLEF strike dates are 19, 26 and 27th November"

http://twitter.com/aslefunion

I hope no one intended to catch the train to Watch the Rugby at the Millennium Stadium...

This another nail in the coffin from any support the public may give to support the Drivers, it is the public who pay for the trains, ATW I know are not a clever Company and some fault lies with them, but no one gives a dam any more for the travelling public who are paramount.

I had support for the Post Office workers on a £15K wage,

 

[Failed Unit]

This another nail in the coffin from any support the public may give to support the Drivers, it is the public who pay for the trains, ATW I know are not a clever Company and some fault lies with them, but no one gives a dam any more for the travelling public who are paramount.

I had support for the Post Office workers on a £15K wage,

I know that it is never a good time to take industrial action, but I wonder what annoys the general public more, if the action is on a working day or on a leisure day. For me personally I would prefer a work day as you have got alternatives (work from home if you are lucky enought, book the day off), but picking a date when you have international rugby is going to annoy the public at large more considing if they can't get to Cardiff they have wasted a lot of money.

 

[Greenback]

The problem here is now that ATW are in the DB group the ATW drivers are looking at what the other divisions get, this has been brewing for a while when Arriva took over XC, an example here for instance, a driver from TOC "A" drives from a to b for 44k a year, a driver from TOC "B" drives the same route for 32k a year, it isn't rocket science why the ATW drivers are in dispute.

ASLEF say that ATW pay the lowest rates in the UK. The pay for station staff is certainly lower than anywhere else I've seen. I think TDK is right that now that DB has taken over, drivers want pay that is more in line with their colleagues.

As a rail user, I hope that this is a bit of sabre rattling and the ballot and announcement of strikes will be sufficient to bring a better offer on to the table. It is often the case that once a company sees that the staff are serious about taking action, and it;s not just the hardliners on the negoptiating team, it will come up with a slightly better final offer. I think the drivers also need to be realistic, particularly as they are on very godo rates of pay for some of the areas where there are depots.

 

[CarterUSM]

Whilst i'm not against parity of pay with other TOC's, i'm sure ATW staff have had previous pay deals to negotiate themselves a similar salary to their peers, and thus i find the argument they should get a pay rise because other companies pay better, a little shaky. Having said that, i hope they get a result regardless.

 

[Greenback]

I find it a little shaky as well, which is why I hope they remain realistic given the economic climate and the low pay that is prevalent in most parts of Wales. I thought it was worth pointing out what ASLEF had said, and how it tied in with TDK's earlier observations!

 

[tbtc]

now that DB has taken over, drivers want pay that is more in line with their colleagues

one big problem with changing franchises.

A few years ago staff on the Birmingham - Stansead/ Cardiff/ Nottingham lines were on parity with staff on other Central Trains routes from Birmingham.

Now, the routes are part of XC so staff want parity with the "inter city" wages other XC staff get.

Understandable, but it's another upward cost - the "parity" is always an upward parity after all

 

[richw]

and it's no longer just Sundays that are affected.....This direct from ASLEF's Twitter pager...

"Arriva Trains Wales #ASLEF members vote for strike action by 92% on an 89% return #ATW"

"#ATW #ASLEF strike dates are 19, 26 and 27th November"

http://twitter.com/aslefunion

I hope no one intended to catch the train to Watch the Rugby at the Millennium Stadium...

i'm driving up from cornwall to see NZ game on 27th, looks like i'll be leaving early to find somewhere to park in cardiff if theres a shortage of trains

 

[Greenback]

Well no one is going to argue for a decrease in their wages!!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well no one is going to argue for a decrease in their wages!!!

Another unitended and unthought of consequence of rail privitisation. This carry one will go on as long as we have fragmentation and franchising.

 

[tbtc]

Well no one is going to argue for a decrease in their wages!!!

It'll go round in circles.

A few years ago we had GNER/ Midland Mainline paying "Top Dolllar" for drivers etc, which lead to a driver shortage at Northern Spirit/ Arriva Trains Northern...

...now we are seeing "regional" drivers have their salaries increased to parity. Then, in a few years time Inter City services will be at a separate franchise and will be rich enough to pay higher salaries to attract drivers from "cash strapped" provincial operators...

...then (repeat to fade)

 

[TDK]

Another unitended and unthought of consequence of rail privitisation. This carry one will go on as long as we have fragmentation and franchising.

You recon? The miners were on strike and that wasn't a privatised business, the postal workers striked, that wasn'tprivatised, the fire brigade stiked that wasn't privatised and so on and so on - I think you are just quoting left wing propaganda young man
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst i'm not against parity of pay with other TOC's, i'm sure ATW staff have had previous pay deals to negotiate themselves a similar salary to their peers, and thus i find the argument they should get a pay rise because other companies pay better, a little shaky. Having said that, i hope they get a result regardless.

I have heard second hand they are after 40k from 32k, I don't think ATW will bow so it looks like a long string of strikes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This another nail in the coffin from any support the public may give to support the Drivers, it is the public who pay for the trains, ATW I know are not a clever Company and some fault lies with them, but no one gives a dam any more for the travelling public who are paramount.

I had support for the Post Office workers on a £15K wage,

When you say drivers is that a generic comment Bob? It;s only the ATW drivers threatening industrial action not all drivers on the network

 

[CarterUSM]

I have heard second hand they are after 40k from 32k, I don't think ATW will bow so it looks like a long string of strikes.

That is a little ambitious to say the least mate! Of course i'm not in ASLE&F or even a driver, but going for almost 25% is suicide in my book. Perhaps there will be an overwhelming ballot for strike, but once the pay is docked for a few months i think there might be a change of heart! What was the pay increase this year anyway?

 

[merlodlliw]

To TDK, No not all drivers, the majority are excellent, I meant only those on a suicide mission.

Anyhow I am not bothered about the Rugby, I am more concerned for those travelling public many of which will be stopped from seeing those family members
very ill and many of the unemployed stopped from getting an interview for example.

As for depts, Mach is an example of pay now that is unavailable elsewhere in the area from any other semi public or private undertaking.

It is a pity that strike action seems the first stage of negotiation now.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Whilst the pay increase ASLEF are seeking for its member may seem like an astronomical rise, you can hardly blame the drivers for wanting a rise similar to what Arriva gave the XC drivers. The ex-Central Drivers went from circa £36k to £48723..... What's good enough for the goose. ATW drivers currently earn £34822 and yet Drive XCs 170s for them for shunting and servicing purposes at Cardiff.
The last pay award was 3%, signed off by ASLEF in an 11th hour deal without consultation of it members, which probably explains why feelings are running so high this time around.
Strike Action is not the first stage in these negotiations. The talks have been ongoing for most of the year with paltry offers being put across the table in exchange for drastic alterations to conditions.
As for the Drivers receiving less than other Drivers purely because they are Welsh.....really? Should FGW and DBS pay its Welsh Depot establishments less than their English Drivers because they are Welsh. ATW doesn't only have depots in Wales....

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit if my company paid people less for doing the same work in different offices their be an outcry so I can see the point. You can't use it is more expensive to live in city x. I am sure Cardiff isn't cheap to live in and the last time I was there beer cost the same (the most important thing in life). The only difference is it is not really that easy in Wales to go to another TOC

 

[Greenback]

It'll go round in circles.

A few years ago we had GNER/ Midland Mainline paying "Top Dolllar" for drivers etc, which lead to a driver shortage at Northern Spirit/ Arriva Trains Northern...

...now we are seeing "regional" drivers have their salaries increased to parity. Then, in a few years time Inter City services will be at a separate franchise and will be rich enough to pay higher salaries to attract drivers from "cash strapped" provincial operators...

...then (repeat to fade)

Yes, it appears that it will be an endless cycle - I think this is what gareth meant when he said it is a result of privatisation. I don't think he meant that strikes don't occur in the public sector!

That is a little ambitious to say the least mate! Of course i'm not in ASLE&F or even a driver, but going for almost 25% is suicide in my book. Perhaps there will be an overwhelming ballot for strike, but once the pay is docked for a few months i think there might be a change of heart! What was the pay increase this year anyway?

If te figure is true, it's not only ambitious but unrealistic if not ridiculous! But we all know that wild claims are put in during periods of negotiation by unions, and pathetic offers ar emade by management. It's all par tof the process.

To TDK, No not all drivers, the majority are excellent, I meant only those on a suicide mission.

Anyhow I am not bothered about the Rugby, I am more concerned for those travelling public many of which will be stopped from seeing those family members
very ill and many of the unemployed stopped from getting an interview for example.

As for depts, Mach is an example of pay now that is unavailable elsewhere in the area from any other semi public or private undertaking.

It is a pity that strike action seems the first stage of negotiation now.

As Pacerpilot ha spointed out, this is far from the first stage of negotiations. Talks have been ongoing for a long time, there are usually severl offers made before the union either recommends acceptance or rejection of an offer by its members.

 

[Gareth Marston]

All this stems from fragmentation and the churning around of franchises creating new groups every few years its nothing to do with left wing, right wing, green wing views or any public/private sector bias. Whats important is that the right structures are in place to deliver value for money (both taxpayer and passenger), passenger concerns and whats right for the nations transport and economy - none of these are in place at the moment. The ATW Drivers dispute just the latest symptom of failings in the industry. The 1993 Railways Act introduced the fragmentation and franchising hence is the underlying cause of the problem.

As I've pointed out time and time again the Treasury's Privitisation Unit failed to spot all the pitfalls and any questioning of it was dismissed as private versus public at the time. The Conservatives had generally rejected the more experimental thinking that was coming out of right wing think tanks in the 80's and had rejected earlier privatisations using the split up model applied to the railways. The thinking was that creating many private sector companies all with a profit making motive was a good thing as more wealth creation would occur. The railways were the only public sector industry that got split up in what was in effect an economic experiment with the more extreme theories of the 80's. The EU Directive on separate accounting for infrastructure and operations being used as the reason to try it.
I am not against private ownership or profit but the model chosen for the railways is so flawed it will always through up these problems. Hence it needs total reform.

 

[Greenback]

I agree Gareth, the model has turned out be very flawed, and people who tried to say this at the time were dismissed as being ideologically opposed to privatisation. This was not really the case, as quite a few people expressed their doubts at the franchise model and argued for BR to be privatisedd as a whole, with other companies to be allowed access to the network.