Super Off-Peak validity early Monday morning

[thewaistcoat]

I was looking at GreatNorthern planning a Sunday return trip from Welwyn Garden City to Finsbury Park and noticed that their site wants to sell me a Super Off-Peak ticket if I return before midnight and only an Off-Peak ticket if after.
However I thought both Off-Peak and Super Off-Peaks tickets valid until 04:29 the next day.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Chances are I'll be on a train before midnight, but have they made a mistake in their planner or come up with a new restriction?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Super Off Peak is only valid Saturday and Sunday. The way this is implemented blocks all times on weekdays. Not sure if it's meant to be OK until close of service or if it's correct.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=WGC&dest=FPK&rte=1000&tkt=CBA

 

[Saperstein]

As it’s valid on Sunday it should be valid coming back if your return journey commences before 0429 as that is the end of the railway day AFAIK.

Others should be able to confirm.

 

[Silverdale]

Yet another instance where implementation by journey planners is more restrictive than the actual restriction??

If retailers are obliged to offer the most appropriate ticket for the journey requested, why isn't this kind of implementation, forcing the OP to purchase a more expensive ticket, a breach of the rules/code of practice?

 

[alistairlees]

Yet another instance where implementation by journey planners is more restrictive than the actual restriction??

If retailers are obliged to offer the most appropriate ticket for the journey requested, why isn't this kind of implementation, forcing the OP to purchase a more expensive ticket, a breach of the rules/code of practice?

What is the journey planner doing wrong though?

 

[Silverdale]

What is the journey planner doing wrong though?

The online document from the NRE site, linked to in the OP states: "Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on your ticket and until 04:29 on the following day."

It also states: "Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used – simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on."

However the journey planner is telling the OP that, should they be returning after midnight on the Sunday but before 04:29 the following day, they need to purchase the more expensive Off-Peak ticket, rather than the Super Off-Peak.

The OP came here to ask for advice, but the average customer won't question the journey planner and just shell out for the more expensive ticket they don't actually need.

 

[alistairlees]

I was looking at GreatNorthern planning a Sunday return trip from Welwyn Garden City to Finsbury Park and noticed that their site wants to sell me a Super Off-Peak ticket if I return before midnight and only an Off-Peak ticket if after.
However I thought both Off-Peak and Super Off-Peaks tickets valid until 04:29 the next day.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Chances are I'll be on a train before midnight, but have they made a mistake in their planner or come up with a new restriction?

Your ticket is indeed valid until 04.29 on Monday, but the data supplied to the journey planner by the rail industry is not sufficiently granular to enable this to be easily implemented by the journey planner. So not really the fault of the journey planner, and I can understand your desire to clarify. You should not have any issues using it.

 

[alistairlees]

The online document from the NRE site, linked to in the OP states: "Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on your ticket and until 04:29 on the following day."

It also states: "Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used – simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on."

However the journey planner is telling the OP that, should they be returning after midnight on the Sunday but before 04:29 the following day, they need to purchase the more expensive Off-Peak ticket, rather than the Super Off-Peak.

The OP came here to ask for advice, but the average customer won't question the journey planner and just shell out for the more expensive ticket they don't actually need.

You missed the point. Journey planners are required to use data supplied by the industry. In this case the data says the ticket is not valid on Mondays. So the journey planner is correct. Journey planners are not supposed to change rsp data.

(Though there are circumstances where there is no choice, eg with railcards, as much of this data is not correct for online journey planners).

 

[Joe Paxton]

You missed the point. Journey planners are required to use data supplied by the industry. In this case the data says the ticket is not valid on Mondays. So the journey planner is correct. Journey planners are not supposed to change rsp data.

(Though there are circumstances where there is no choice, eg with railcards, as much of this data is not correct for online journey planners).

Re the last point - I wonder if you might be able to expand on that, perhaps with an example or two?

Re the OP's problem - from the point of view of the prospective passenger, the situation is daft regardless of who's at fault (it's a bit like Joe Public not being wildly concerned whether their delayed journey was specifically the fault of a TOC, FOC or Network Rail).

 

[Silverdale]

You missed the point. Journey planners are required to use data supplied by the industry. In this case the data says the ticket is not valid on Mondays. So the journey planner is correct. Journey planners are not supposed to change rsp data.

I think you've missed the point. It's the data supplied to the journey planner which is incorrect. If the date shown on the Super Off-Peak Day Return ticket is a Sunday, the ticket is valid for travel up to 04:29, the following day. There is nothing in the terms and conditions of that ticket which make an exception when the following day is a Monday.

The question is whether the data supplied to journey planners is incorrect through a lazy (not valid on Mon-Fri) interpretation of the actual ticket restriction, or a deliberately more restrictive implementation, in order to force the purchase of the more expensive ticket.

The way restriction code BT is implemented by journey planners for Off-Peak Return (SVR) tickets is another case in point. The actual, published, restriction sates that the ticket is not valid for outward or return travel by any train timed to depart before 04:30, also that where travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London, restriction codes CI and CJ also apply.

So, restriction codes CI and CJ should not apply to such SVR tickets, where travel is not to/from or via Luton or London, e.g. from Tamworth to Loughborough, using the SVR, which has a BT restriction.

But check out a journey planner for a return journey from Tamworth to Loughborough with early morning outward itineraries. Even though the trains don't depart before 04:30 and it's valid for travel, the SVR (£21.60) isn't offered. Instead, you get the more expensive option of single tickets (£45.30) because the journey planner is using incorrect, unpublished restrictions, which lazily (or intentionally?) implement restriction codes CI and CJ more restrictively, to apply to all travel on trains arriving at Bedford or London in the morning peak, not just travel to/from or via Luton or London on them. The early morning itineraries from Tamworth to Loughborough involve use of such trains between Derby and Loughborough.

So the punter shells out the £45+ to purchase the singles which they believe are the cheapest option, as that's what the journey planner tells them, yet it's double the price of the ticket they should be being offered. In other retail environments, this would be called price gouging.

 

[Starmill]

It's the data supplied to the journey planner which is incorrect.

A very significant proportion of the data supplied is either insufficient or unsuitably formatted for the purpose that it purportedly serves with regards to the actual presentation of results from an online journey planner. This is by no means an unusual example.

The question is whether the data supplied to journey planners is incorrect through... a deliberately more restrictive implementation, in order to force the purchase of the more expensive ticket.

This seems exceptionally unlikely, to me. However, I think the consequences of the data presentation are likely to be what you suggest.

 

[Paul Kelly]

In this case the data says the ticket is not valid on Mondays.

It does, but the issue date for the ticket would still be a Sunday, so that is not why it is showing as invalid for a return journey on a Monday morning.

The problem is rather the "belt and braces" approach taken by the TOC (First Capital Connect it was I think, who first introduced these fares) who additionally added a set of time restrictions barring any departures between 0001 and 2359, Monday to Friday. That is the real problem, as I see it. I think GTR (who now maintain the fare) could remove these time restrictions with no adverse effects on journey planners, since the date-based "calendar restriction" would still prevent issuing the ticket on Mondays-Fridays.

 

[Starmill]

In other retail environments, this would be called price gouging.

It could certainly be called inherently unfair trading against consumers. Some people might even call it a breach of competition law on the part of a trade organisation, the suppliers of the data. I would not go so far myself.

 

[Silverdale]

This seems exceptionally unlikely, to me.

Unlikely, perhaps, but if a lazy implementation was costing train operators, they would be pulling their fingers out more sharply to fix it or have it fixed. As the only consequence is to hit their customers in the pocket, it's no big deal.

 

[trainophile]

Is the OP and the replies only relevant to the specific journey, or a general rule about Super Off Peak Returns? I ask because only last weekend a family member used a Super Off Peak Return to travel from Liverpool to Birmingham on Sunday, returning on Tuesday (yesterday). Curiously Virgin trains were allowed on the Sunday but only LNWR on the Tuesday. I have just recreated a similar itinerary for next weekend, and again getting return journey allowed on Tuesday. This doesn't seem to tie in to my understanding of the replies above that Super Off Peak Returns are only valid at weekends, or am I misunderstanding?

 

[alistairlees]

It does, but the issue date for the ticket would still be a Sunday, so that is not why it is showing as invalid for a return journey on a Monday morning.

The problem is rather the "belt and braces" approach taken by the TOC (First Capital Connect it was I think, who first introduced these fares) who additionally added a set of time restrictions barring any departures between 0001 and 2359, Monday to Friday. That is the real problem, as I see it. I think GTR (who now maintain the fare) could remove these time restrictions with no adverse effects on journey planners, since the date-based "calendar restriction" would still prevent issuing the ticket on Mondays-Fridays.

Thanks. I hadn’t actually got round to looking at the data in detail, but that sounds plausible. My general point was that journey planners are not necessarily in themselves at fault, or even wrong according to the rules laid down by the rail industry. Yet, because of badly thought out data and / or data structures, this can lead to poor (wrong) outcomes for customers. The way to fix this might be in the journey planner, but is at least as likely to be in the data or data structure as your point suggests.

 

[alistairlees]

Is the OP and the replies only relevant to the specific journey, or a general rule about Super Off Peak Returns? I ask because only last weekend a family member used a Super Off Peak Return to travel from Liverpool to Birmingham on Sunday, returning on Tuesday (yesterday). Curiously Virgin trains were allowed on the Sunday but only LNWR on the Tuesday. I have just recreated a similar itinerary for next weekend, and again getting return journey allowed on Tuesday. This doesn't seem to tie in to my understanding of the replies above that Super Off Peak Returns are only valid at weekends, or am I misunderstanding?

In this example the super off peak return is only valid at the weekend. Other super off peak returns may be valid on weekdays. Depends on the journey. It’s a shame it isn’t consistent!

 

[alistairlees]

I think you've missed the point. It's the data supplied to the journey planner which is incorrect. If the date shown on the Super Off-Peak Day Return ticket is a Sunday, the ticket is valid for travel up to 04:29, the following day. There is nothing in the terms and conditions of that ticket which make an exception when the following day is a Monday.

The question is whether the data supplied to journey planners is incorrect through a lazy (not valid on Mon-Fri) interpretation of the actual ticket restriction, or a deliberately more restrictive implementation, in order to force the purchase of the more expensive ticket.

The way restriction code BT is implemented by journey planners for Off-Peak Return (SVR) tickets is another case in point. The actual, published, restriction sates that the ticket is not valid for outward or return travel by any train timed to depart before 04:30, also that where travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London, restriction codes CI and CJ also apply.

So, restriction codes CI and CJ should not apply to such SVR tickets, where travel is not to/from or via Luton or London, e.g. from Tamworth to Loughborough, using the SVR, which has a BT restriction.

But check out a journey planner for a return journey from Tamworth to Loughborough with early morning outward itineraries. Even though the trains don't depart before 04:30 and it's valid for travel, the SVR (£21.60) isn't offered. Instead, you get the more expensive option of single tickets (£45.30) because the journey planner is using incorrect, unpublished restrictions, which lazily (or intentionally?) implement restriction codes CI and CJ more restrictively, to apply to all travel on trains arriving at Bedford or London in the morning peak, not just travel to/from or via Luton or London on them. The early morning itineraries from Tamworth to Loughborough involve use of such trains between Derby and Loughborough.

So the punter shells out the £45+ to purchase the singles which they believe are the cheapest option, as that's what the journey planner tells them, yet it's double the price of the ticket they should be being offered. In other retail environments, this would be called price gouging.

The point I was making was indeed that the data supplied by the rail industry is at odds with the stated validity of the ticket. Journey planners though must use that data.

I really don’t think this is a deliberate attempt to extort more money from customers; rather just a poor use of data where the consequences are not thought through. It can be fixed and hopefully will be shortly.

 

[alistairlees]

Re the last point - I wonder if you might be able to expand on that, perhaps with an example or two?

Re the OP's problem - from the point of view of the prospective passenger, the situation is daft regardless of who's at fault (it's a bit like Joe Public not being wildly concerned whether their delayed journey was specifically the fault of a TOC, FOC or Network Rail).

I agree that the OP should not need to be concerned whose fault it is; I was just suggesting some of the possible reasons behind the issue.

Re the railcard issue, the railcard data has something like this for (eg) senior railcards
Min adults 0
Max adults 8
Min passengers 0
Max passengers 8

Clearly this is not correct for one senior railcard!

It exists like this in order to enable station TIS to do more complex things face to face than would be allowed online.

The one example I can think of right now is that, at a station with a family and friends railcard, there is no need to buy an adult ticket for a journey if you already possess another ticket (such as a season); you can just buy a FAM discounted child ticket by itself.

 

[Silverdale]

The point I was making was indeed that the data supplied by the rail industry is at odds with the stated validity of the ticket. Journey planners though must use that data.

I appreciate that journey planners apply the restriction data supplied by the rail industry, but where that is at odds with the actual published restrictions, retailers who sell tickets through the journey planners on their sites also bear some responsibility for the consequences. Retailers operate under the code of practice which is supposed to ensure that customers aren't exploited.

Where customers are being misled into paying more than necessary for their travel, to shrug and point to data and an implementation which was not thought through (oops!), is totally inadequate as a response.

It can be fixed and hopefully will be shortly.

Many of these unpublished restrictions have been implemented in this way for years. I'm afraid I don't see the issue being resolved unless and until the ORR comes down on the industry like a ton of bricks and orders them to do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You missed the point. Journey planners are required to use data supplied by the industry. In this case the data says the ticket is not valid on Mondays. So the journey planner is correct. Journey planners are not supposed to change rsp data.

Yes and no. Almost all of LNR's Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets have an easement "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" in the human-readable restriction which is the definitive one. Yet the planners actually can't implement that. Not a single one of their guards will question it, though.

 

[Starmill]

Yes and no. Almost all of LNR's Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets have an easement "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" in the human-readable restriction which is the definitive one. Yet the planners actually can't implement that. Not a single one of their guards will question it, though.

The solution to this would be so easy for WMT to implement. Just abolish all afternoon time restrictions on Super Off Peak tickets, except for trains timed to depart Birmingham New Street, London Euston or Liverpool Lime street at between x and y. I don't know why they didn't just do that in the first place, it's easier to understand as well as easier to code, and probably more effective than the current way the restrictions work, as it wouldn't restrict empty trains departing from places like Hereford ad Bedford.

 

[Silverdale]

Yes and no. Almost all of LNR's Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets have an easement "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" in the human-readable restriction which is the definitive one. Yet the planners actually can't implement that. Not a single one of their guards will question it, though.

If it's an easement, guards shouldn't be questioning it. But the fact they don't only fixes one side the problem - that of customers with Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak tickets travelling on trains which, without the easement, would be barred.

The other side of the problem is potential customers being offered Anytime tickets as the cheapest when they are planning their journeys, because the journey planners can't implement the easement.

 

[Silverdale]

The easy solution to the BT problem would be to remove it from tickets for flows which don't involve travel to/from or via Luton or London and replace it with restriction 2T.

 

[bb21]

As it’s valid on Sunday it should be valid coming back if your return journey commences before 0429 as that is the end of the railway day AFAIK.

Others should be able to confirm.

Valid as long as the journey finishes by 0429. All validity on Day tickets finish at that point.

 

[Wolfie]

The solution to this would be so easy for WMT to implement. Just abolish all afternoon time restrictions on Super Off Peak tickets, except for trains timed to depart Birmingham New Street, London Euston or Liverpool Lime street at between x and y. I don't know why they didn't just do that in the first place, it's easier to understand as well as easier to code, and probably more effective than the current way the restrictions work, as it wouldn't restrict empty trains departing from places like Hereford ad Bedford.

Your solution isn't foolproof. An example: l am travelling LNWR/WMT Euston to Telford Central, changing at Birmingham New Street. If l leave Euston at a 'valid' time l am currently perfectly entitled to change onto a train leaving Birmingham at a 'invalid' time under the connections rule. Your solution would block that.

 

[Starmill]

Your solution isn't foolproof. An example: l am travelling LNWR/WMT Euston to Telford Central, changing at Birmingham New Street. If l leave Euston at a 'valid' time l am currently perfectly entitled to change onto a train leaving Birmingham at a 'invalid' time under the connections rule. Your solution would block that.

Indeed it would. Swings and roudabouts. In my view, to block the journey you mention would be more reasonable than to block people from departing from Stoke-on-Trent, Ledbury or Ridgmont at those times. It would make Super Off Peak tickets barred for nearly the whole afternoon for some journeys to infrequently served stations, though.

The actual solution would be to re-write the restriction codes based on each route and direction. But that would take a significant amount of work that they are probably not going to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your solution isn't foolproof. An example: l am travelling LNWR/WMT Euston to Telford Central, changing at Birmingham New Street. If l leave Euston at a 'valid' time l am currently perfectly entitled to change onto a train leaving Birmingham at a 'invalid' time under the connections rule. Your solution would block that.

It would also mean no evening restrictions from MKC etc, which would all be very nice but I doubt WMT would be happy with it. You could call it the West Brompton solution

Worth noting that the system can't deal with restriction based on the origin of a train before you board it - if that is what the OP meant it doesn't do that either, if you want to achieve that you have to bar each individual train as say VTWC does the 1610 on North Wales tickets, but that's a lot of trains to code in!

The real solution is for the system to be updated to handle those two cases properly, they are hardly difficult IT problems. I think other than Break of Journey related issues that would mean all the restriction codes would work properly.

 

[Silverdale]

Worth noting that the system can't deal with restriction based on the origin of a train before you board it

By 'the system', do you mean the journey planners themselves, or the format of the data which the industry uses to define the effect of the restriction codes?

Or are we locked in stasis because, to fix the problem, both would need to be updated and there is no one body which can instigate that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

By 'the system', do you mean the journey planners themselves, or the format of the data which the industry uses to define the effect of the restriction codes?

I don't know - just that the planners can't presently do it. A bit of both, I imagine.