SuperExpress timings?

[TheWalrus]

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of how the all-electric SuperExpresses will perform. Including things like station dwell times, and savings in time between stations. Basically what will be in rules of the plan when they come into service.

Any ideas anyone?

 

[rail-britain]

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of how the all-electric SuperExpresses will perform

I was under the impression the original specification was for a dual power train?

Equally the performance will probably be zero, or stuck in memos and postal deliveries
From 06 June 2010 the project is "under review"

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

No, do we care? Not particularly because it'll never get off the blueprint stage.
Besides IEP has been scrapped, HS2 still a pipe-dream & it's at least 10 years before anything gets done about it anyway, which in real terms is 2 changes of government.

Why don't I care about it, because I know that down here in the West, we'll never see OHL.

 

[TheWalrus]

No, do we care? Not particularly because it'll never get off the blueprint stage.
Besides IEP has been scrapped, HS2 still a pipe-dream & it's at least 10 years before anything gets done about it anyway, which in real terms is 2 changes of government.

Why don't I care about it, because I know that down here in the West, we'll never see OHL.

It hasn't been scrapped...

 

[ukrob]

No, do we care? Not particularly because it'll never get off the blueprint stage.
Besides IEP has been scrapped, HS2 still a pipe-dream & it's at least 10 years before anything gets done about it anyway, which in real terms is 2 changes of government.

Why don't I care about it, because I know that down here in the West, we'll never see OHL.

The person who asked the question obviously does, so why not say 'I don't know', instead of speaking on behalf of everyone.

 

[The Planner]

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of how the all-electric SuperExpresses will perform. Including things like station dwell times, and savings in time between stations. Basically what will be in rules of the plan when they come into service.

Any ideas anyone?

A big fat no, considering nothing has been sorted for 172s yet.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The person who asked the question obviously does, so why not say 'I don't know', instead of speaking on behalf of everyone.

He like I won't see them, because the core route of GWE is Paddington-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea, with the possibility of Newbury as well. So anything West of Bristol/Newbury won't see anything of it; So why worry, I definitely won't see it (HS2 or GWE) within my lifetime, in fact there's a greater chance of the rail network being tarmacked over with this bunch of loons that we have running this country.

 

[ukrob]

I think you rather missed the point - by your logic, we shouldn't care about anything which doesn't run on our local line. The question had nothing to do with politics either.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was under the impression the original specification was for a dual power train?

No - there were 5 variants called for in the ITT as published:

Full length Electric,
Half length Electric
Full length Bi-mode
Half length Bi-mode
Full length self powered (diesel).

There was no half length diesel - probably because it would have less capacity than a bog standard Voyager.

Internal layouts included commuter, interregional and intercity variants...

From 06 June 2010 the project is "under review"

Being swept under the nearest carpet, I reckon...

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I think you rather missed the point - by your logic, we shouldn't care about anything which doesn't run on our local line. The question had nothing to do with politics either.

All you need to worry about is whether your train arrives at your station on time, leaves on time & ultimately arrives at its destination on time, not whether it's a super duper electric train, which goes at 260kph, has 1st Class, etc.

What you should be worried about is the clowns in DaFT, who would rather tarmac the whole lot over if they & their chums at the RHA had their way, perhaps you'd like another round of "Beeching" style closures, because if they spend all of the money on HS2 & other drivel like it then there'll be sod all left for any other infrastructure projects.

 

[rail-britain]

No - there were 5 variants called for in the ITT as published

That was in the original specification to which the original contract was offered
However the latest revision only shows a dual-powered version, one option only
I suspect this option has been kept open so that it is in place when the East Coast franchise is offered again
*cough, from memory this was also the specification Virgin Rail Group had requested

 

[ukrob]

All you need to worry about is whether your train arrives at your station on time, leaves on time & ultimately arrives at its destination on time, not whether it's a super duper electric train, which goes at 260kph, has 1st Class, etc.

What you should be worried about is the clowns in DaFT, who would rather tarmac the whole lot over if they & their chums at the RHA had their way, perhaps you'd like another round of "Beeching" style closures, because if they spend all of the money on HS2 & other drivel like it then there'll be sod all left for any other infrastructure projects.

I give up.

That might be all YOU care about and want to know about, but there are other people in the world besides you who would like to know different information to you, hence people asking questions. Whether it is relevant to their local line or not makes no difference.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Do we need to worry about acceleration/braking curves, no we need to worry about power doors opening/closing times, dwell times and all of the technical jargon for something that won't happen in the next 10 years or more? NO.

 

[ukrob]

Do we need to worry about acceleration/braking curves, no we need to worry about power doors opening/closing times, dwell times and all of the technical jargon for something that won't happen in the next 10 years or more? NO.

1) Nobody was worrying about it.

2) Best not discuss (or even think about) the future in anything in life huh.

Jeez. I will let you have the last nonsensical word if you want it. I'm done.

 

[TheWalrus]

ukrob THANKYOU!!!!!!

 

[starrymarkb]

As I understood it the bi-mode was designed for a 90mph speed off the wires. Certainly the DfT crib sheet that was floating around when it was published stated that.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DfT_IEPQand AFinal2008.pdf

 

[RobShipway]

The problem for the government on super express or IEP whatever you want to call it is that per carriage is is almost twice the price being paid per carriage for the extra Pendo carriages.

However, is that cost worth it when you consider that it will bring a manufactoring base for Hitachi for their trains for Europe to be built and bring jobs as well which would help lower the unemployment of this country within the next 5 to 10 years?

Is there a cheaper answer to IEP that could provide anything up to 2,000 plus jobs in the same way?

Back to the original question, the dwell timings from details I have seen of IEP would only be slightly better than the current HST trains due to the fact they would have electric doors where the HST doors are manual.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

HST doors could be converted to power operation, just use the same parts as on a 442.

Which maybe a good option as the HSTs seem to be pencilled in for a further life extension, the parts are readily available too.

 

[RobShipway]

If the change of plan to putting in OHLE on the Midland Mainline instead of GW goes to plan, I can see the fact of changing the HST MK3 coaches to be like the class 442 coaches. But I also see a need then for trains to replace the HST's on the Midland Mainline and the class 221 trains given pantograph to work as electric trains with an order for more going to Bombardier for class 220/221 tilt version trains maybe rather than buying into IEP??

Then I could then see the Voyagers working using a pantograph as far as Crewe, then changing to their Diesel engine for the run to Holyhead. Not sure why this is not being done now in fact, unless their is not enough electrical juice in the network?

 

[Geezertronic]

Then I could then see the Voyagers working using a pantograph as far as Crewe, then changing to their Diesel engine for the run to Holyhead.

If you're on about Virgin's service from Euston to Holyhead, you're affectively adding another stop at Crewe (they don't currently stop there on weekday services) which could have a knock on effect on timings. It's only weekend services that seem to stop at Crewe which is why they only seem to do Pendolino drags at the weekend.

Not sure why this is not being done now in fact, unless their is not enough electrical juice in the network?

Because the 221s don't have a pantograph coach?

 

[Philip Elliott]

If you're on about Virgin's service from Euston to Holyhead, you're affectively adding another stop at Crewe (they don't currently stop there on weekday services) which could have a knock on effect on timings. It's only weekend services that seem to stop at Crewe which is why they only seem to do Pendolino drags at the weekend.

Try reading the timetable again, all the Chester/North Wales services stop at Crewe without exception.

 

[Geezertronic]

Try reading the timetable again, all the Chester/North Wales services stop at Crewe without exception.

I stand very much corrected, apologies... don't know what I was looking at when I made the statement?

 

[tbtc]

I stand very much corrected, apologies... don't know what I was looking at when I made the statement?

Were you thinking of the London - Liverpool services which had their Crewe stop cut (since Crewe - London is additionally served by the third Manchester service)?

 

[Geezertronic]

Were you thinking of the London - Liverpool services which had their Crewe stop cut (since Crewe - London is additionally served by the third Manchester service)?

I don't honestly know For what it is worth, Virgin also offer the 1843hrs EBW service which extends to Stafford and Crewe.

 

[swt_passenger]

That was in the original specification to which the original contract was offered...

Exactly - so why imply in your reply to the original question (post #2) that the original spec was for full length bi-modes only - AFAICS the ITT is still the original spec, whatever happened behind the scenes subsequently...

However the latest revision only shows a dual-powered version, one option only

Have you a link to that? Or a date? That was never made explicit publicly IIRC.

Roger Ford's last attempted detailed explanation in his March column, (as it turned out published only a few days before the wheels fell off IEP completely), referred to five packages of revised orders, of which package one was to be full length bi-modes for ECML HST replacement. Although he mentioned that there would be no full length diesels, there would still be all-electric versions. Further, both bi-mode and electric would come in a number of different lengths. So there was still a number of different power/length variants, which were explained as follows (in a table in the April Modern Railways):

P0 - 10 car bi-mode ECML HSTreplacement
P1 - 5 car electric and bimode - ECML stoppers and Cambridge
P5 - 10 car electric ECML 225 replacements

All a bit academic really of course, and I guess DfT will never explain it all publicly.

PS - this bit described the 'current proposal' as shown in the Foster report:

The current proposal for IEP is somewhat different in terms of the make-up of
the fleet:
5 carriage length electric: 46
8 carriage length electric: 20
5 carriage length bi-mode: 33
7 carriage length bi-mode: 14
9 carriage length bi-mode: 11
10 carriage length bi-mode: 13.
Wholly diesel trains are no longer required following the decision announced
in July last year to electrify the route from London to Bristol, Cardiff and
Swansea. The longer bi-mode trains now have a second transformer on
another passenger carriage because without this the diesel generator would
be running for significant periods of time under the wires. Other elements of
the specification such as flexibility and the small diesel generator required on
the electric trains remain unaltered and are key features of the proposed IEP
design.