Surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

[Jetglo]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tavistock-re-opening-news.252662/

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

 

[irp]

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

Isn't the big concern the Maldon Viaduct ? [I'd love to see it myself!]

 

[uglymonkey]

Another viaduct alongside, for about a million ( going by HS2 and GWML accounting methods, made from solid gold, imported from China via Antarctic penguins and paper clips.

 

[DDB]

I don't think mention has been made of a Dawlish coast diversion. I think resilience in this case is not a diversionary route but more sea defences or similar.

 

[uglymonkey]

750 million that should have been!

 

[irp]

I don't think mention has been made of a Dawlish coast diversion. I think resilience in this case is not a diversionary route but more sea defences or similar.

Agreed. I was more thinking it would give passengers an alternate route if needed. Would make Plymouth->Tavistock->Okehampton->Exeter at least a possibility - whether that would be practical with timings etc is an entirely different question

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think mention has been made of a Dawlish coast diversion. I think resilience in this case is not a diversionary route but more sea defences or similar.

I agree. I’ve long been convinced that if they were at all serious about an alternative route they’d have been trumpeting it as a new line. They’ve always been consistent in referring to a resilience project, not a new route. I doubt they’ve ever seriously viewed Tavistock in terms of sea wall resilience.

 

[BrianW]

Agreed. I was more thinking it would give passengers an alternate route if needed. Would make Plymouth->Tavistock->Okehampton->Exeter at least a possibility - whether that would be practical with timings etc is an entirely different question

Sorry <irp> but West of Dawlish only warrants Rail Replacement Buses when 'resilience' has failed. And I imagine the Network North listing is only indicative of existing resilience works to be completed.

Isn't the big concern the Maldon Viaduct ? [I'd love to see it myself!]

Enjoy the youtube:

meldon viaduct youtube - Google Search

!!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

How would the Gunnislake and Calstock section of the line fit in to the Tavistock extention?

Would the line at Bere Alston be remodeled so that the station sees one platform in use with two lines passing through but treat as two seperate lines? This inclues the crossover that is currently located at the west of the Bere Alston station, would this be reloacted at Tavistock as I can't see any point serving Bere Alston twice?

I'm guessing that the calling pattern for when Tavistock finally opens would run as Plymouth, Devonport, Dockyard, Keyham, St Bueaux Victoria Road, Bere Ferres, Bere Alston, Tavistock, Calstock and Gunnislake.

 

[Irascible]

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

Where's this "Dawlish coast diversion"? it mentioned the resilience plan, which is basically stabilising the coast like has been happening already. I'm not sure why it needs extra funding, I thought it was already, so I suspect that's just spin.

They can't even get the right line out of Tavistock on the map, so expect nothing that isn't already underway ( is Cullompton technicallly underway? ). No mention of anything for the West of England line which has been asking for enough for some extra loops for donkeys years. Or Exeter area remodelling. It's just puff.

 

[21C101]

Where's this "Dawlish coast diversion"? it mentioned the resilience plan, which is basically stabilising the coast like has been happening already. I'm not sure why it needs extra funding, I thought it was already, so I suspect that's just spin.

They can't even get the right line out of Tavistock on the map, so expect nothing that isn't already underway ( is Cullompton technicallly underway? ). No mention of anything for the West of England line which has been asking for enough for some extra loops for donkeys years. Or Exeter area remodelling. It's just puff.

A lot of marginal seats with regard to the Lib Dems in that part of the world.

But agree most is puff. Anything where contracts won't be let before a general election is best regarded as puff unless proven otherwise (as was the case with road upgrades in the mid 90s).

 

[D Williams]

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton

There's no realistic business case for Tavistock to Okehampton simply because there's no business to be had. Have a look at a map.

 

[Irascible]

A lot of marginal seats with regard to the Lib Dems in that part of the world.

But agree most is puff. Anything where contracts won't be let before a general election is best regarded as puff unless proven otherwise (as was the case with road upgrades in the mid 90s).

I live in that supposedly safe seat that overtthrew their 18,000 majority ( and won't exist from the next election, as is the way ). None of them are safe. Labour was 2nd place in this seat for quite some time until we all decided the LDs were the tactical vote ( I don't know wh y) so don't rule out anything.

Is the developer money there at Tavistock now? after the Euston statement you can see what this is contingent on.

 

[21C101]

There's no realistic business case for Tavistock to Okehampton simply because there's no business to be had. Have a look at a map.

There was just as little business case for Bathgate to Drumgelloch.

 

[zwk500]

There was just as little business case for Bathgate to Drumgelloch.

That had the advantage of being between Edinburgh and Glasgow, sensibly. Connecting the commuter belt to the two largest cities in Scotland is rather a large amount of business. But there's very little commuter belt between Tavistock and Okehampton and it wouldn't offer a clear alternative.

Leicestershire to Leicester is where the demand is, however simply that's not a flow the railway can serve.

Is this backed up by the Travel to Work data?

 

[yorksrob]

That had the advantage of being between Edinburgh and Glasgow, sensibly. Connecting the commuter belt to the two largest cities in Scotland is rather a large amount of business. But there's very little commuter belt between Tavistock and Okehampton and it wouldn't offer a clear alternative.

Brighton is also a big city and local employer (albeit 270k pop to Edinburgh's 520k. London is, of course much bigger than either).

By your logic, would it not also make sense to connect the commuter belts of these two cities between Uckfield and Lewes ?

 

[21C101]

That had the advantage of being between Edinburgh and Glasgow, sensibly. Connecting the commuter belt to the two largest cities in Scotland is rather a large amount of business. But there's very little commuter belt between Tavistock and Okehampton and it wouldn't offer a clear alternative.

It still ran 20 miles through the middle of nowhere between a glasgow satellite and edinburgh satellite, and to an extent duplicated the four other Glasgow to Edinburgh lines.

If that can justify a double track electrufied railway, then a single track non electrified railway a similar distance between the satellite towns of Devons two largest cities. Especially as, meldon viaduct aside the formation is exceptionally intact and well mapntained with the principal structures made of virtually indestructable granite.

 

[yorksrob]

It still ran 20 miles through the middle of nowhere between a glasgow satellite and edinburgh satellite, and to an extent duplicated the four other Glasgow to Edinburgh lines.

If that can justify a double track electrufied railway, then a single track non electrified railway a similar distance between the satellite towns of Devons two largest cities. Especially as, meldon viaduct aside the formation is exceptionally intact and well mapntained with the principal structures made of virtually indestructable granite.

You're quite right of course. The central section should come back, linking Okehampton and Tavistock into a better regional network, rather than dead-end branches.

The route unfortunately suffers from NBOE (not being outside England).

 

[D Williams]

It still ran 20 miles through the middle of nowhere between a glasgow satellite and edinburgh satellite, and to an extent duplicated the four other Glasgow to Edinburgh lines.

If that can justify a double track electrufied railway, then a single track non electrified railway a similar distance between the satellite towns of Devons two largest cities. Especially as, meldon viaduct aside the formation is exceptionally intact and well mapntained with the principal structures made of virtually indestructable granite.

"made of virtually indestructable granite."

When was the last time you looked at Meldon viaduct?

 

[21C101]

When was the last time you looked at Meldon viaduct?

Which part of "meldon viaduct aside" did you miss?

 

[Basil Jet]

Is Meldon Viaduct even necessary? While the original line was built for steam trains and climbed westward from Okehampton at 1 in 77, I see no reason why a modern line from Okehampton to Tavistock couldn't have a lower bridge over the river about halfway between Okehampton and Meldon, with a level line east of the new bridge and a 1 in 40 gradient climb west of the bridge until rejoining the old line west of Meldon, leaving the heritage viaduct unspoiled.

 

[D Williams]

Which part of "meldon viaduct aside" did you miss?

Unfortunately , Meldon can't be "left aside" as it's the lynchpin of the route. The cost of dealing with this would be more than the rest of the project put together. An engineering survey about twenty years ago ( yes, this is how long Devon CC has been dabbling with this ) also cast doubts on the stability of some of the embankments between Bere Alston and Tavvy. The attached link throws a different light on the subject. There is also a major problem with flooding at the Exeter end.

Riding the ‘Dawlish avoiding line’

Friday 26th November 2021 As explained in Wednesday’s blog when the violent storm caused the railway track at Dawlish to collapse in 2014 there was much talk at the highest political level (Prime M…

busandtrainuser.com

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately , Meldon can't be "left aside" as it's the lynchpin of the route. The cost of dealing with this would be more than the rest of the project put together. An engineering survey about twenty years ago ( yes, this is how long Devon CC has been dabbling with this ) also cast doubts on the stability of some of the embankments between Bere Alston and Tavvy. The attached link throws a different light on the subject. There is also a major problem with flooding at the Exeter end.

Riding the ‘Dawlish avoiding line’

Friday 26th November 2021 As explained in Wednesday’s blog when the violent storm caused the railway track at Dawlish to collapse in 2014 there was much talk at the highest political level (Prime M…

busandtrainuser.com

It would take one viaduct, probably a slimline concrete structure alongside the original (these sort of structures are expected in road building)

Would the flooding problem at the Exeter end be the Cowley junction issue where culverts have recently been constructed to enable water to pass through the embankment ?

 

[stuu]

You're quite right of course. The central section should come back, linking Okehampton and Tavistock into a better regional network, rather than dead-end branches.

The route unfortunately suffers from NBOE (not being outside England).

The route is in the middle of nowhere. There is literally no settlement of any note between Okehampton and Tavistock. Okehampton has a population of 6,000, it would have been miles down the list of places that need a railway if there hadn't been the freight line already.

Why the obsession with rebuilding that line? Tiverton is much bigger and doesn't have a railway, as is Sidmouth.

 

[yorksrob]

The route is in the middle of nowhere. There is literally no settlement of any note between Okehampton and Tavistock. Okehampton has a population of 6,000, it would have been miles down the list of places that need a railway if there hadn't been the freight line already.

Why the obsession with rebuilding that line? Tiverton is much bigger and doesn't have a railway, as is Sidmouth.

Because the route would be a useful interregional through route. Okehampton has already proved that there is demand in the area - this would likely be greater for a route via Tavistock to Plymouth.

For what it's worth I've always thought that Tiverton got a raw deal with its parkway. If there were decent local support for reinstatement (as there is for Tavistock) I would absolutely support it (same goes for the South Dorset/Devon branches).

 

[The Ham]

Because the route would be a useful interregional through route. Okehampton has already proved that there is demand in the area - this would likely be greater for a route via Tavistock to Plymouth.

For what it's worth I've always thought that Tiverton got a raw deal with its parkway. If there were decent local support for reinstatement (as there is for Tavistock) I would absolutely support it (same goes for the South Dorset/Devon branches).

It also allows trains from Waterloo to be extended to Plymouth.

Whilst not the best way of increasing capacity on the face of it, there's little other choice (OK you'd need Crossrail 2, Woking & Basingstoke junctions and redoubling of the WofE line - but that's more achievable than extra capacity into Paddington).

In a post Crossrail 2 world of should be possible to speed up the journey time (first off your save a bit by bit having to wait for the oncoming trains), a fair amount of that time saving would be a new limited stop service (Waterloo, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton, Exeter Central, Exeter St David's and then through to Plymouth with limited stops) which whilst probably wouldn't match the B&H line on the on the train time but would be able to leave London later and arrive to Plymouth sooner (only just).

Whilst that's not likely to attract a lot of new passengers, there's likely to be a fair few added from SWML stations (it's not always very quick to get from them to Reading, so a direct service from Basingstoke would be fairly popular).

Places like Southampton and Portsmouth would be 1 change (Salisbury) from Plymouth and probably quicker than currently (even using the XC services to get to Reading)..

The potential of long distance services using the route want included in the cost estimates (most likely due to the fact that they required other investment - which is reasonable at this point, but could be a useful exercise to understand the bigger picture as to how the whole would be bigger than sum of the parts; however that would require joined to thinking and long term planning!).

 

[Gathursty]

The route is in the middle of nowhere. There is literally no settlement of any note between Okehampton and Tavistock. Okehampton has a population of 6,000, it would have been miles down the list of places that need a railway if there hadn't been the freight line already.

Why the obsession with rebuilding that line? Tiverton is much bigger and doesn't have a railway, as is Sidmouth.

Noone thinks this parochially about that re-opening. It has been said (to death) that this will be the alternative to Plymouth-Exeter.

There does need to be an inquiry on how cost-benefit ratios are worked out because I'm concerned that these can be subject to bias and are not as critical as some people think they are.

 

[yorksrob]

It also allows trains from Waterloo to be extended to Plymouth.

Whilst not the best way of increasing capacity on the face of it, there's little other choice (OK you'd need Crossrail 2, Woking & Basingstoke junctions and redoubling of the WofE line - but that's more achievable than extra capacity into Paddington).

In a post Crossrail 2 world of should be possible to speed up the journey time (first off your save a bit by bit having to wait for the oncoming trains), a fair amount of that time saving would be a new limited stop service (Waterloo, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton, Exeter Central, Exeter St David's and then through to Plymouth with limited stops) which whilst probably wouldn't match the B&H line on the on the train time but would be able to leave London later and arrive to Plymouth sooner (only just).

Whilst that's not likely to attract a lot of new passengers, there's likely to be a fair few added from SWML stations (it's not always very quick to get from them to Reading, so a direct service from Basingstoke would be fairly popular).

Places like Southampton and Portsmouth would be 1 change (Salisbury) from Plymouth and probably quicker than currently (even using the XC services to get to Reading)..

The potential of long distance services using the route want included in the cost estimates (most likely due to the fact that they required other investment - which is reasonable at this point, but could be a useful exercise to understand the bigger picture as to how the whole would be bigger than sum of the parts; however that would require joined to thinking and long term planning!).

Exactly, taken together with capacity enhancements towards Salisbury you could have a real improvement in connectivity.

 

[stuu]

Noone thinks this parochially about that re-opening. It has been said (to death) that this will be the alternative to Plymouth-Exeter.

There does need to be an inquiry on how cost-benefit ratios are worked out because I'm concerned that these can be subject to bias and are not as critical as some people think they are.

And it has been repeatedly pointed out that there is no business case for alternative, just in case routes.

South Devon is where people live, it is the sensible place for a railway line between Exeter and Plymouth, and always will be.

It also allows trains from Waterloo to be extended to Plymouth.

Or you could reverse at Exeter St D for an investment of £0 (plus rolling stock). No need to rebuild miles and miles through the middle of nowhere, all that latent demand catered for for next to nothing. Win all round surely?

 

[yorksrob]

Regardless of what the OP says, there is every reason for reopening the mid-Devon route.