Swanage Railway announce 2023 Wareham service

[yorksrob]

Although Tories are down to 12 out of 76 seats on Bournemouth, Poole Christchurch council!


There's just a bit of a bad smell about the whole thing. I'm not sure if it is lack of competence or something worse.

Well, from the reports on here, there seem to be plenty of passengers using it. That's the key point to my mind.

 

[Dai Corner]

Although Tories are down to 12 out of 76 seats on Bournemouth, Poole Christchurch council!

An entirely different unitary authority to the post-2019 Dorset, where they have 43 of the 82 seats and the Lib Dems have 29, and the pre-2019 Dorset which made the grants that enabled the Wareham service.

 

[Djgr]

An entirely different unitary authority to the post-2019 Dorset, where they have 43 of the 82 seats and the Lib Dems have 29, and the pre-2019 Dorset which made the grants that enabled the Wareham service.

Point I was making was that it is probably naive to assume that Dorset will always be true blue when neighbouring "blue till I die" councils have fallen

Well, from the reports on here, there seem to be plenty of passengers using it. That's the key point to my mind.

It is relevant but barely key

 

[Dai Corner]

Well, from the reports on here, there seem to be plenty of passengers using it. That's the key point to my mind.

The key point is that the SR haven't found that there are plenty of passengers and can't afford to continue the service.

Point I was making was that it is probably naive to assume that Dorset will always be true blue when neighbouring "blue till I die" councils have fallen

Mine was that it's hard to say whether the current Dorset Council would be prepared to pay SR an operating subsidy.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Somewhat off topic but why are they running 33s on the back of steam services the last week?

Save time on the run round at Norden in high summer (what might be termed a service resilience measure elsewhere)

 

[Titfield]

Somewhat off topic but why are they running 33s on the back of steam services the last week?

Believe that 6 carriage trains running so required motive power at both ends to enable shunt and release (so that all 6 carriages could be on the platform).

 

[yorksrob]

The key point is that the SR haven't found that there are plenty of passengers and can't afford to continue the service.

Mine was that it's hard to say whether the current Dorset Council would be prepared to pay SR an operating subsidy.

No, there are plenty of passengers, just not enough to run a commercial service.

At this point, let us remind ourselves how many TOC's there are requiring subsidy. Lots.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Swanage railway was less "inefficient" than most of the passenger network.

 

[tumbles]

Save time on the run round at Norden in high summer (what might be termed a service resilience measure elsewhere)

Believe that 6 carriage trains running so required motive power at both ends to enable shunt and release (so that all 6 carriages could be on the platform).

Thanks both, makes sense. Would love to see a complete rake of Maunsell coaches being hauled up the line. Anyway going off topic!

 

[railfan99]

...although I spent money in Swanage, it was entirely at the station which I did not leave! I did however pay full fare on the Swanage Railway, in order to support them and the Wareham service...

You indirectly support local employment (at Swanage Railway) by using the station cafe/shop even if latter has volunteers. No need for 'although'. Well done for paying full fare.

If finances permit (not everyone's do), we can donate on top of buying a full fare ticket, and/or follow your lead and patronise station bars/cafes/shops.

I feel privileged to be able to travel on so many restored heritage railways including shortly this one. England is the world leader.

 

[paul1609]

Thanks both, makes sense. Would love to see a complete rake of Maunsell coaches being hauled up the line. Anyway going off topic!

The lines accountants wouldn't, Maunsell Coaches are notoriously low capacity.

 

[30907]

The lines accountants wouldn't, Maunsell Coaches are notoriously low capacity.

Depends which, surely? If you put the armrests up they seat 4-a-side in 2nd. A SO is a compartment shorter than a Mk1, but CK/SK are the same and a Brake seats more.... Restriction 4 of course

Edited after visit to model railway room

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The lines accountants wouldn't, Maunsell Coaches are notoriously low capacity.

However, in particular the droplight thirds, they are far more attractive than most of the "stuff" most visitors get given to ride in. I fear though that there is not too much of the good stock left.

 

[Djgr]

No, there are plenty of passengers, just not enough to run a commercial service.

At this point, let us remind ourselves how many TOC's there are requiring subsidy. Lots.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Swanage railway was less "inefficient" than most of the passenger network.

Feels like a Reston to me, when both capital and revenue support are taken into account.

 

[Titfield]

The lines accountants wouldn't, Maunsell Coaches are notoriously low capacity.

The Passenger Service Manager doesnt like it because he has to manage group bookings and also deal with any (negative) feedback.

 

[Brush 4]

yorksrob is on the right track as it were... There is no reason why heritage lines should be treated differently to the TOC's. They require subsidies for most of their services, so then should heritage line public services to the nearest main line towns. Swanage - Bournemouth, Minehead - Taunton/Bristol for example. Either with their own units or, a TOC running through to the terminus. Early and late trains won't interfere with the steam timetable and their are 4 loops at Swanage and 4 or 5 at Minehead. The termini count as loops because a DMU can tuck in to the bay while a steam train departs from the main platform.
These and other lines must look outward not inward, pulling up the drawbridge and repelling all invaders.

As a matter of interest, how much of the network would remain if all subsidies were withdrawn? Has any such study been done?
Public service overrides financial concerns or at least it should. Trains mostly don't pay, accept that and run them anyway, with the subsidies.

 

[railfan99]

Your Rail/HS2Minister The Hon Huw Merriman MP travelled on the Swanage Railway DMU on Tuesday 22 August, accompanied by a local MP, and met many volunteers. I assume it's a marginal seat.

Is there any chance this excellent DMU will run up and down on the preserved section (not the mainline connection) on Wednesday 13 September 2023 when The Railway Touring Company operates a through train day tour from London Victoria?

 

[Titfield]

Your Rail/HS2Minister The Hon Huw Merriman MP travelled on the Swanage Railway DMU on Tuesday 22 August, accompanied by a local MP, and met many volunteers. I assume it's a marginal seat.

Is there any chance this excellent DMU will run up and down on the preserved section (not the mainline connection) on Wednesday 13 September 2023 when The Railway Touring Company operates a through train day tour from London Victoria?

Unlikely for the DMU to be out as it is a one loco in steam day. (Blue Timetable).

It hasnt been a marginal seat previously but who knows what will happen at any subsequent election.

yorksrob is on the right track as it were... There is no reason why heritage lines should be treated differently to the TOC's. They require subsidies for most of their services, so then should heritage line public services to the nearest main line towns. Swanage - Bournemouth, Minehead - Taunton/Bristol for example. Either with their own units or, a TOC running through to the terminus. Early and late trains won't interfere with the steam timetable and their are 4 loops at Swanage and 4 or 5 at Minehead. The termini count as loops because a DMU can tuck in to the bay while a steam train departs from the main platform.
These and other lines must look outward not inward, pulling up the drawbridge and repelling all invaders.

As a matter of interest, how much of the network would remain if all subsidies were withdrawn? Has any such study been done?
Public service overrides financial concerns or at least it should. Trains mostly don't pay, accept that and run them anyway, with the subsidies.

IMHO having TOC operated services and HR operated services running on the same track on the same day would create insurmountable issues.

For example:
1) on heritage railways the stations are staffed by volunteers who "work a short day" - who would staff the stations early and late (and for that matter on the full days when the HR was not operating*) for the TOC operated services?
* Swanage Railway for example doesnt operate Mondays and Fridays in September.
2) The same issues applies to the signalling staff.
3) The heritage stations would have to display all the current signage legally mandated for TOCs. This would hardly fit with the heritage ambience and there may be conflicts between mainline Ts and Cs and heritage railways TS and Cs.
4) The fare differentials between TOC fares and heritage railway fares are considerable. What happens if a TOC ticket holding passenger wishes to travel on an HR service? HRs do not accept railcards or offer delay repay or have the same standards for providing assistance for some passengers. How would this be managed?

I could go on but I suspect that the HR would decline and wither if a TOC provided services.

 

[chrisp37]

Even though it's not my closest geographically, the Swanage Railway is the heritage railway that means the most to me because of all my childhood memories of going on it in summer holidays and seeing it expand beyond Harman's Cross to Corfe Castle and beyond. I still visit two or three times a year and am already looking forward to visiting again next month. I had planned to do the Wareham-Swanage return trip for a second time in July, using SWR to get to Wareham, but the rail strikes put paid to that unfortunately.

I was very excited when the Wareham service was announced and would be very sad if we don't see it continue, even though I can well understand the reasons behind it. In the unfortunate event that it does not continue in its current form, is it still possible that we could see more frequent use of that section of the track than was the case previously, i.e. prior to the current Wareham-Swanage trial? It's always a real highlight getting to travel on the section beyond Norden, and I love the fact that that section is used for gala events. I get why they don't run the trains up to the SR/NR boundary on normal running days (given you can't get off at the viaduct), but it would be a real shame if after this September we no longer see any trains (either SR or SWR) running beyond Norden, aside from during the galas (but even then the trains obviously can't run all the way into Wareham).

 

[Mainline421]

For example:
1) on heritage railways the stations are staffed by volunteers who "work a short day" - who would staff the stations early and late (and for that matter on the full days when the HR was not operating*) for the TOC operated services?
* Swanage Railway for example doesnt operate Mondays and Fridays in September.
2) The same issues applies to the signalling staff.
3) The heritage stations would have to display all the current signage legally mandated for TOCs. This would hardly fit with the heritage ambience and there may be conflicts between mainline Ts and Cs and heritage railways TS and Cs.
4) The fare differentials between TOC fares and heritage railway fares are considerable. What happens if a TOC ticket holding passenger wishes to travel on an HR service? HRs do not accept railcards or offer delay repay or have the same standards for providing assistance for some passengers. How would this be managed?

1) No one, unless SRC want to open the shop for extra revenue.
2) Token working, with no other trains there wouldn't be any switching needed and the loops are bidirectional.
3) Not an issue.
4) They're required to purchase a ticket for the heritage service, same as for The Jacobite currently.

This is all academic anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Unlikely for the DMU to be out as it is a one loco in steam day. (Blue Timetable).

It hasnt been a marginal seat previously but who knows what will happen at any subsequent election.



IMHO having TOC operated services and HR operated services running on the same track on the same day would create insurmountable issues.

For example:
1) on heritage railways the stations are staffed by volunteers who "work a short day" - who would staff the stations early and late (and for that matter on the full days when the HR was not operating*) for the TOC operated services?
* Swanage Railway for example doesnt operate Mondays and Fridays in September.
2) The same issues applies to the signalling staff.
3) The heritage stations would have to display all the current signage legally mandated for TOCs. This would hardly fit with the heritage ambience and there may be conflicts between mainline Ts and Cs and heritage railways TS and Cs.
4) The fare differentials between TOC fares and heritage railway fares are considerable. What happens if a TOC ticket holding passenger wishes to travel on an HR service? HRs do not accept railcards or offer delay repay or have the same standards for providing assistance for some passengers. How would this be managed?

I could go on but I suspect that the HR would decline and wither if a TOC provided services.

As far as I can see, point 3 is the only one which is "insurmountable", and is more of an aesthetic concern anyway.

1 & 2 are resolved by paying the railway as a mini- TOC/mini-track operator to keep the necessary staff and maintenance regime in place.

4 is solved by using boring modern stock on the main line services "if you want to travel behind the big, smelly kettle, you pay full fare". Most people who visit heritage railways do so for the traction/rolling stock, not the line in particular.

 

[Brush 4]

Even Point 3 isn't insurmountable, as this pic of Okehampton illustrates. The modern sign does sit rather uncomfortably on the railings but, it has taken second place to the green SR one above. On the platform side, it is all green signs plus a few modern ones on the canopy supports. Also, a dep/arr monitor showing next train etc. So that is how it would be at Swanage or on other lines. Heritage prevails but, modern signage as well. I think Swanage station already has a monitor anyway so, all ready for SWR to display their times alongside the SR times. As for Point 1, Okehampton is unstaffed by the TOC leaving it to the DRA volunteers to staff when they choose.
Other points have been dealt with above. It is just insularity from heritage lines in general. They must look outwards not inwards. If they won't, the outside world must be enforced. A daily public service is far more important than only an isolated pleasure ride.

 

[Titfield]

Even Point 3 isn't insurmountable, as this pic of Okehampton illustrates. The modern sign does sit rather uncomfortably on the railings but, it has taken second place to the green SR one above. On the platform side, it is all green signs plus a few modern ones on the canopy supports. Also, a dep/arr monitor showing next train etc. So that is how it would be at Swanage or on other lines. Heritage prevails but, modern signage as well. I think Swanage station already has a monitor anyway so, all ready for SWR to display their times alongside the SR times. As for Point 1, Okehampton is unstaffed by the TOC leaving it to the DRA volunteers to staff when they choose.
Other points have been dealt with above. It is just insularity from heritage lines in general. They must look outwards not inwards. If they won't, the outside world must be enforced upon them. A daily public service is far more important than only an isolated pleasure ride.

ok some fair responses to the points I raised.

I think what may be a bigger issue would be the attitude of the volunteers who may decide they no longer wish to volunteer. Any form of compulsion or enforcement tends to drive volunteers away.

I think it may also be worth mentioning in the case of Swanage Railway that the volunteers did not take over a mothballed branch but a totally derelict branch from Norden to Swanage and have rebuilt the section literally from the trackbed upwards. Signal boxes have been built, Swanage Station was virtually derelict, the halt at Herston and Harmans Cross Cross and Norden Stations built from scratch...the list goes on.

 

[zwk500]

1) on heritage railways the stations are staffed by volunteers who "work a short day" - who would staff the stations early and late (and for that matter on the full days when the HR was not operating*) for the TOC operated services?
* Swanage Railway for example doesnt operate Mondays and Fridays in September.

Staffed stations are not critical to TOC operations.

3) The heritage stations would have to display all the current signage legally mandated for TOCs. This would hardly fit with the heritage ambience and there may be conflicts between mainline Ts and Cs and heritage railways TS and Cs.

Plenty of heritage signage around, with sympathetic modern signage possible with a little effort.

4) The fare differentials between TOC fares and heritage railway fares are considerable. What happens if a TOC ticket holding passenger wishes to travel on an HR service? HRs do not accept railcards or offer delay repay or have the same standards for providing assistance for some passengers. How would this be managed?

As others have said, this is little different to the Jacobite/Scotrail situation or indeed any charter heading back on roughly the same route as a service train.

2) The same issues applies to the signalling staff.

2) Token working, with no other trains there wouldn't be any switching needed and the loops are bidirectional.

This issue is the killer. Even a 'One train in steam' principle may still need signalling staff to accept the train from NR. And if you do that you're limited to 1tp2h which is hardly worth it, so you'll need at least one crossing point staffed to allow an hourly service (the minimum that's worth doing). @Brush 4 was suggesting multiple trains in operation so certainly would be needing minimum of 3 boxes staffed for a full day (fringe with NR, crossing loop halfway down, and Swanage). You'd really struggle to justify the cost of NSTR to bring the need for signalling down, especially as that could have major impact on the Swanage Railway's operations depending on the setup.

1 & 2 are resolved by paying the railway as a mini- TOC/mini-track operator to keep the necessary staff and maintenance regime in place.

Local government won't have the resources to do this, and central government would never sanction the level of funding required to maintain a fully competent railway capable of operating a public service from 0600 to 2200 for a private line.
If the public workings are only desired at weekends then it is quite feasible for SWR to essentially just arrange for paths as a visiting TOC to the Swanage, and to limit themselves to the Swanage's hours of operation. However if the public service is wanted throughout the week at 1tph minimum then things escalate in cost and complexity *very* quickly. None of it is unsolvable, but the present political environment is fairly clear that the money required won't be forthcoming.

 

[yorksrob]

ok some fair responses to the points I raised.

I think what may be a bigger issue would be the attitude of the volunteers who may decide they no longer wish to volunteer. Any form of compulsion or enforcement tends to drive volunteers away.

I think it may also be worth mentioning in the case of Swanage Railway that the volunteers did not take over a mothballed branch but a totally derelict branch from Norden to Swanage and have rebuilt the section literally from the trackbed upwards. Signal boxes have been built, Swanage Station was virtually derelict, the halt at Herston and Harmans Cross Cross and Norden Stations built from scratch...the list goes on.

I think that the company would have to employ a core of staff to run main line services, if it were subsidised as such. Nevertheless, there would still be plenty of opportunities to staff the heritage trains and station facilities. The volunteer signalman might be the only one who would have to step aside (or become a full time employee).

Local government won't have the resources to do this, and central government would never sanction the level of funding required to maintain a fully competent railway capable of operating a public service from 0600 to 2200 for a private line.
If the public workings are only desired at weekends then it is quite feasible for SWR to essentially just arrange for paths as a visiting TOC to the Swanage, and to limit themselves to the Swanage's hours of operation. However if the public service is wanted throughout the week at 1tph minimum then things escalate in cost and complexity *very* quickly. None of it is unsolvable, but the present political environment is fairly clear that the money required won't be forthcoming.

Central Government has sanctioned full reopenings of closed railways. This would provide the benefits of a full reopening for much less capital outlay

 

[zwk500]

I think that the company would have to employ a core of staff to run main line services, if it were subsidised as such. Nevertheless, there would still be plenty of opportunities to staff the heritage trains and station facilities. The volunteer signalman might be the only one who would have to step aside (or become a full time employee).

The overheads of running the HR system for this are large.

Central Government has sanctioned full reopenings of closed railways. This would provide the benefits of a full reopening for much less capital outlay

I wasn't talking about the CAPEX for reopening, but the OPEX for running the service. This service would require significant ongoing support. That's additional money to the budget at a time when Central government is very desperate to cut costs. Given how reluctant the government has been to fund additional drivers, guards and units for the existing public timetable, why would they fund a railway they don't even own?
It's not a case of 'never' but it's certainly a case of 'not until a major political earthquake happens'.

 

[williamn]

Given that the railway already has electronic screens showing departures and train formations, plus automated announcements, both just like the mainline, they're clearly not too worried about period ambience in the first place!

 

[Titfield]

Given that the railway already has electronic screens showing departures and train formations, plus automated announcements, both just like the mainline, they're clearly not too worried about period ambience in the first place!

I think it was a case of needs must where the devil drives. AFAIK Swanage Railway has ceased publishing paper timetables, doesnt want to be constrained by pre printed posters which to some extent precludes timetable changes and has therefore gone for the digital option which allows them to change timetables literally at will.

Swanage Railway is gradually losing its ambience of being a well kept and presented heritage railway and becoming scruffier and less appealing The sidings near Harmans Cross are full of very shabby stock awaiting restoration. The squint at Swanage in prime position has a very scruffy looking insulfish van and the kitchen car from the now out of service dining set looking very unloved with flat paintwork dotted with some small bits of corrosion.

 

[James H]

ceased publishing paper timetables

There's certainly a printed timetable leaflet for the Wareham service. Though to my mind it fails to make sufficiently clear the service isn't daily.

 

[Titfield]

There's certainly a printed timetable leaflet for the Wareham service. Though to my mind it fails to make sufficiently clear the service isn't daily.

Thanks. I havent seen one and certainly havent seen any material at the usual outlets I have visited.

I know some years back they produced both a full timetable (which showed all timetable variants) and individual timetables for each variant so those who wanted "todays timetable" could have a simple DL flyer rather than the full 14DL leaflet.

 

[paul1609]

Thanks. I havent seen one and certainly havent seen any material at the usual outlets I have visited.

I know some years back they produced both a full timetable (which showed all timetable variants) and individual timetables for each variant so those who wanted "todays timetable" could have a simple DL flyer rather than the full 14DL leaflet.

I think that leaflets in general in the heritage railway industry have been in decline, with such high numbers of people booking on line they're only for a niche market.