Swanage Railway - trains to Wareham 2024

[Titfield]

I believe that the freeholder of the majority of the Swanage Branch is Dorset CC or its successor who will be a statutory authority. I'm uncertain that Network Rail can actually compulsory purchase the property of a statutory authority. In reality these sort of things would be agreed between Network Rail and the CC. If you were able to progress the compulsory purchase you'd need planning permission, a Transport & Works Order which assuming there were objections to would require a public enquiry, engineering and enviromental assessments. Either way it would take years to progress and require £ millions up front before a wheel ever turned.

Yes Dorset Council is the freeholder of the majority of the branch (up to Northbrook Road Bridge Swanage) and Swanage Town Council are the freeholder of the remaining section in Swanage.

I can see no reason why there couldnt be a TOC operating a diesel "normal" service year round and Swanage railway operating a steam heritage service as and when it wishes say daily from end of March to end of September and then Not Monday Friday in October.

Obviously there are issues to be resolved (signalling, dispatch, customer service, fares and ticketing etc etc) but the greater good should prevail.

There is no reason why Network Rail would have to purchase the freehold. They could simply agree some form of access agreement with the freeholder.

 

[paul1609]

Yes Dorset Council is the freeholder of the majority of the branch (up to Northbrook Road Bridge Swanage) and Swanage Town Council are the freeholder of the remaining section in Swanage.

I can see no reason why there couldnt be a TOC operating a diesel "normal" service year round and Swanage railway operating a steam heritage service as and when it wishes say daily from end of March to end of September and then Not Monday Friday in October.

Obviously there are issues to be resolved (signalling, dispatch, customer service, fares and ticketing etc etc) but the greater good should prevail.

There is no reason why Network Rail would have to purchase the freehold. They could simply agree some form of access agreement with the freeholder.

The obvious reason why it won't happen is that nobody is going to pay the subsidy for mainline stock to come to operate at a maximum of 25 mph over 9 miles and 77 chains of exheritage railway. The losses on the service of a year round service would be eye watering and make the SRCs loss look peanuts

 

[Titfield]

The obvious reason why it won't happen is that nobody is going to pay the subsidy for mainline stock to come to operate at a maximum of 25 mph over 9 miles and 77 chains of exheritage railway. The losses on the service of a year round service would be eye watering and make the SRCs loss look peanuts

I dont doubt that for one moment the subsidy required would be huge which is why I have consistently argued that if there is any money available to improve public transport in and to / from the Isle of Purbeck it should be spent on enhancing the Purbeck Breezer bus service.

As regards a subsidy I am a heritage railway volunteer and therefore follow the mantra of the late Viv Nicholson "spend spend spend".

 

[paul1609]

I dont doubt that for one moment the subsidy required would be huge which is why I have consistently argued that if there is any money available to improve public transport in and to / from the Isle of Purbeck it should be spent on enhancing the Purbeck Breezer bus service.

As the crow flies Swanage Pier is only 7 miles from Poole Station. I'd go for the Poole Harbour Emirates Airway with intermediate stations at Brownsea Island and Studland Bay, be a huge tourist attraction in its own right, environmentally friendly and generate local employment.

 

[Invincible]

The obvious reason why it won't happen is that nobody is going to pay the subsidy for mainline stock to come to operate at a maximum of 25 mph over 9 miles

It's possible if the service returns then the section between Norden and Worgret Junction (where currently there are no steam or freight trains) could allow the DMMU to run at 40 mph.

At a recent public meeting it was announced that the report on the 2023 trial has been completed but was being shared with the significant stakeholders first before being made public. It was also announced that the 2023 trial made a loss of £100,000.

It should be noted that there is still strong and significant support for a future Wareham service from some influential quarters.

We shall see what the report suggests, if it ever gets published.
The footfall in 2017 was 13,020 and most were connections from mainline trains https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-41656613 so will be interesting to see what it was in 2023? Would have some visitors who would not otherwise have visited the Swanage railway and would have helped boost tourism, also could have reduced road traffic by encouraging some to use rail instead. Possible there may be some way to reduce or eliminate the loss to the Swanage railway, the buses got a subsidy, the 2023 trail did not.

 

[joncombe]

Sad to hear because I'm sure I remember Swanage Railway saying that the passenger numbers of the 2017 trial exceeded predictions. I know a few commented here that the 2023 timetable seemed designed to fail with poor connections and quite a short time in Swanage. I don't know what constrains they were under, but I do agree the timetable was far from ideal. I also find it odd that it is only the DMU that runs through to Wareham I suspect steam is a bigger draw on a heritage railway than a DMU and that might also be a factor (I wonder how passenger numbers compare on the trains between Norden and Swanage that are DMUs vs Steam). For example the NYMR services through to Whitby are steam hauled.

I've been travelling on the line since the 1980s when it only went a mile or so and the intention was always stated to be restore the link to Wareham - something which it appears they Swanage railway is now trying to distance itself from.

I'm glad to hear the line is owned by the local authorities and not the Swanage Railway because it does make it easier for someone else to run a through service as they don't have to get the permission of the Swanage Railway by the sounds of it. I also wonder if there might be a reluctance to renew the existing lease when it ends or apply conditions (like services to Wareham). I know SWR did experiment with through services to Corfe Castle but sadly know more (though I think in their 2nd year of running it seemed to be cancelled more often than it ran which can't have helped build a business case).

Certainly the Swanage Railway seem to have got a lot of public money to restore the DMUs and the signalling to Wareham which it appears they get a lot of benefit from. The public not so much it seems.

 

[30907]

I also find it odd that it is only the DMU that runs through to Wareham I suspect steam is a bigger draw on a heritage railway than a DMU and that might also be a factor (I wonder how passenger numbers compare on the trains between Norden and Swanage that are DMUs vs Steam). For example the NYMR services through to Whitby are steam hauled.

And that required a certain amount of NR infrastructure investment, on a line that otherwise had 4tpd (at the time). Wareham is a tad busier, not to mention the fact that NR would require main line certification for the locos and stock.
Shame, but no chance - unless NR could be persuaded to single their line between Worgret and Wareham and hand the other over to Dorset (along with reinstating the down bay etc etc.). If there was serious interest in a service, that might be worth pursuing, but it wouldn't come cheap!

 

[paul1609]

It's possible if the service returns then the section between Norden and Worgret Junction (where currently there are no steam or freight trains) could allow the DMMU to run at 40 mph.

The current regulations under Rogs for heritage railways restricts the operation of passenger trains to 25 mph. This applies to the safety management system which includes the vehicles as well as the infrastructure, including its maintenance. It's possible that the ORR might agree to a derogation for this section but personally I think that's unlikely. Okehampton was transferred to the National rail network and most of the ex freight/heritage rail was completely relaid to get higher speeds. Like I say however you go about it you would be looking at £ millions of funding upfront and £ millions in ongoing subsidy.

 

[Titfield]

Swanage Railway cant run heritage steam on its own to Wareham (using for example 31806 which is mainline certified) as there is no run around facility at Wareham. The sidings are out of use because of issues with the foot crossing. It could of course top and tail with a Class 33 (mainline certified) but that becomes quite an expensive operation.

The down bay is now the station car park. The up bay has network rail infrastructure (an electrical cabinet on it). I note that the edge of the up bay platform now has a fence on it to prevent incidents.

IMHO the local authority should purchase the rather run down industrial estate which backs on to the up bay platform, demolish it and build a much larger station car park. (The current car park had capacity for 69 vehicles but i think a couple of parking spaces have been lost to the new cycle storage racks).

Yes Swanage Railway is trying to distance itself from the grand talk of reinstating the service to Wareham. Whilst they make the point about the bus company receiving a subsidy for fares (and the railway doesnt) they fail to mention just how much public money SR has had: for the refurb of the dmus, the inclusion of the branch in the wool - poole resignalling scheme, the cost of upgrading the top section of the line between Worgret Jct and Norden so it can be brought back into use, the grant from BP / Perenco to pay for the level crossing at Norden and the donation from a local trust to pay for the dmu servicing centre at Corfe Castle Station. Whilst not in the scope of Project Wareham they were gifted the T3 locomotive but admittedly had to raise the funds for its restoration (which was less than the cost of refurbing the Class 117 and 121 DMUs).

I am a strong supporter of Swanage Railway but from day one I had concerns that Project Wareham would devour a considerable amount of money (mainly taxpayers but also the railways) time and effort for little result but perhaps more importantly damage the railways reputation. Whilst I acknowledge they were legally obliged to operate the two trial years IMHO they should have operated them as soon as possible with hired in stock and in consecutive years. If it had been a rip roaring success then no problem, but this long drawn out saga - operationally successful but financially disastrous - has damaged the railways reputation and leaving it in limbo - it wont operate in 2024 but may do in the future - simply means there is a strong likelihood of another negative statement in a years time. PW should be declared finished and a line drawn under it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Rail Advent seem to be reporting an announcement by Swanage Railway that the proposed regular service has been abandoned:

The Swanage Railway has withdrawn its plans for a train service to connect Swanage with the mainline at Wareham.

Trial services ran in 2017 and 2023 and saw a train service connect Swanage and Wareham via the mainline connection at Worgret Junction.

Frank Roberts, chairman of the Swanage Railway Trust, says that whilst the trials were operationally a success, they did not deliver commercially.

Frank also said that any future service would need to be subsidised to allow it to be commercially viable.

Swanage Railway withdraws plans for Wareham train service

The Swanage Railway has withdrawn its plans for a train service to connect Swanage with the mainline at Wareham.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[Jan Mayen]

I wonder why the North York Moors service to Whitby seems to work. Presumably, the volume of passengers travelling Grosmont to Whitby makes it worth while.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder why the North York Moors service to Whitby seems to work. Presumably, the volume of passengers travelling Grosmont to Whitby makes it worth while.

Whitby is a destination in itself, and adds to the attraction of the railway.

If someone is going to Swanage, they don't really gain much by going from Wareham instead of Norden or Corfe Castle. The through service to Wareham is never going to be viable just on people connecting out of mainline trains. The demand for people travelling from Swanage to Wareham is limited, as attractive as the heathland is north of Norden.

 

[paul1609]

T

I wonder why the North York Moors service to Whitby seems to work. Presumably, the volume of passengers travelling Grosmont to Whitby makes it worth while.

The physical risk of the North York Moors operation over a single track non electrified line with 6 national rail trains per day is very much lower than Wareham.
The Nymr company has a turnover of 4 to 5 times that of the Swanage Railway so is much better equipped to cover set up costs and any financial loss.

 

[Djgr]

Swanage Railway cant run heritage steam on its own to Wareham (using for example 31806 which is mainline certified) as there is no run around facility at Wareham. The sidings are out of use because of issues with the foot crossing. It could of course top and tail with a Class 33 (mainline certified) but that becomes quite an expensive operation.

The down bay is now the station car park. The up bay has network rail infrastructure (an electrical cabinet on it). I note that the edge of the up bay platform now has a fence on it to prevent incidents.

IMHO the local authority should purchase the rather run down industrial estate which backs on to the up bay platform, demolish it and build a much larger station car park. (The current car park had capacity for 69 vehicles but i think a couple of parking spaces have been lost to the new cycle storage racks).

Yes Swanage Railway is trying to distance itself from the grand talk of reinstating the service to Wareham. Whilst they make the point about the bus company receiving a subsidy for fares (and the railway doesnt) they fail to mention just how much public money SR has had: for the refurb of the dmus, the inclusion of the branch in the wool - poole resignalling scheme, the cost of upgrading the top section of the line between Worgret Jct and Norden so it can be brought back into use, the grant from BP / Perenco to pay for the level crossing at Norden and the donation from a local trust to pay for the dmu servicing centre at Corfe Castle Station. Whilst not in the scope of Project Wareham they were gifted the T3 locomotive but admittedly had to raise the funds for its restoration (which was less than the cost of refurbing the Class 117 and 121 DMUs).

I am a strong supporter of Swanage Railway but from day one I had concerns that Project Wareham would devour a considerable amount of money (mainly taxpayers but also the railways) time and effort for little result but perhaps more importantly damage the railways reputation. Whilst I acknowledge they were legally obliged to operate the two trial years IMHO they should have operated them as soon as possible with hired in stock and in consecutive years. If it had been a rip roaring success then no problem, but this long drawn out saga - operationally successful but financially disastrous - has damaged the railways reputation and leaving it in limbo - it wont operate in 2024 but may do in the future - simply means there is a strong likelihood of another negative statement in a years time. PW should be declared finished and a line drawn under it.

Does have a little feel of a PPE on wheels regarding the public funding

 

[antharro]

I'm just thinking out loud here so don't take this seriously.

I do wonder if once DMUs used elsewhere in the country start to come up for replacement (150, 153, 156, maybe even a 158 or 159) if one could find its way into the hands of the Swanage Railway. Running a longer service to Bournemouth on non-heritage stock might bring in more local traffic. As well as being "open access" from Bournemouth to Wareham, it would give a good additional option for people in the local area to get to Swanage. Given the alternatives are the 50 bus or driving, and given the roads down to Swanage aren't exactly the best especially in rush hour, it might be a viable option. Especially if it's run regularly enough during the day with plenty of advertising, so that it becomes known in the local common knowledge that "there's a train from Bournemouth to Swanage".

I'm pretty sure there's more than enough space in the timetable to allow a 1tph service, or even 2tph. Put it in Bournemouth after the down fast. So the down fast arrives (10x444), splits, the front five head off for Weymouth, the rear five go to the sidings. The DMU comes in to platform 3, driver changes ends while people get on, and off it goes. All stations to Wareham, where it picks up people who have gotten off the up from Weymouth, before heading down the branch. Mainline speed (as far as the DMU is rated anyway), then slow down once on the Swanage line.

Anyway, thinking out loud here as I said. None of this is serious and I'm sure it's all been considered before. I'm also sure there are 1000 reasons why this is absolutely impractical (driver training and competence, stock maintenance, setting up of an open access operator, gauging issues, etc etc). I'm sure I'll be told most of them in short order.

 

[yorksrob]

Whitby is a destination in itself, and adds to the attraction of the railway.

If someone is going to Swanage, they don't really gain much by going from Wareham instead of Norden or Corfe Castle. The through service to Wareham is never going to be viable just on people connecting out of mainline trains. The demand for people travelling from Swanage to Wareham is limited, as attractive as the heathland is north of Norden.

But the whitby line has passengers travelling from Middlesborough and the wider network to a popular tourist resort.

The same could potentially be true of Bournemouth (and beyond) to Swanage ?

The line would have to be maintained to NR standards with the Swanage Railway having the surrounding paths and the main line services would have to be part of the National fares system.

Perhaps this is the way forward - Swanage even has two platforms, the shorter bay could be used for the national network trains.

 

[JonathanH]

But the whitby line has passengers travelling from Middlesborough and the wider network to a popular tourist resort.

Yes, and a huge subsidy for each one of those travellers, because of the imbalance between fares and the use and cost of the infrastructure.

The same could potentially be true of Bournemouth (and beyond) to Swanage ?

It isn't very direct.

The line would have to be maintained to NR standards with the Swanage Railway having the surrounding paths and the main line services would have to be part of the National fares system.

In other words, it would require a substantial subsidy.

 

[Titfield]

One could write a book on the pros and cons of such a service but any rail service from Bournemouth Poole or Wareham to Swanage has to compete with the bus service (which is actually good) and the free travel for NCTS pass holders.

If Dorset Council or others wishes to spend money on improving public transport on the Isle of Purbeck then either support an enhanced bus service or buy the Sandbanks Ferry.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, and a huge subsidy for each one of those travellers, because of the imbalance between fares and the use and cost of the infrastructure.


It isn't very direct.


In other words, it would require a substantial subsidy.

Yes, well if you want a decent public transport system, you need a subsidy. The link to Whitby is well worth it. The same could probably said for Swanage.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, well if you want a decent public transport system, you need a subsidy. The link to Whitby is well worth it. The same could probably said for Swanage.

Yes, and no one would suggest that Swanage should be cut off by a lack of subsidy. However, it is somewhere that can be reached by bus, and maybe in this case, the subsidy spend is better on a frequent and well run bus service.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, and no one would suggest that Swanage should be cut off by a lack of subsidy. However, it is somewhere that can be reached by bus, and maybe in this case, the subsidy spend is better on a frequent and well run bus service.

Whitby has a decent bus service to Middlesbrough (yes, I've used it) but there is a benefit to the community from having both.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect the reasoning for the retention of the mainline rail link to Whitby, ie bad winter conditions, wouldn’t be at all relevant to Swanage. Anyway, Wareham-Swanage now seems to be a ‘dead parrot’, now matter how many straws are being clutched.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect the reasoning for the retention of the mainline rail link to Whitby, ie bad winter conditions, wouldn’t be at all relevant to Swanage. Anyway, Wareham-Swanage now seems to be a ‘dead parrot’, now matter how many straws are being clutched.

Reasons for retention in the 1960's usually bear little relation to how rail services are used today.

 

[paul1609]

One of the problems with Swanage is that if you're coming from the East (London &The South coast) It's better to change at Bournemouth and get the attractive bus ride along Bournemouth sea front and Poole Harbour at Sandbanks with the novelty of the chain ferry and then sweeping views of Purbeck to Swanage itself where if you want you can cover the most attractive section of the Swanage Railway on a steam train to Norden. Ive done the through connection twice on charters but wouldn't bother with a through train from Wareham.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes, and a huge subsidy for each one of those travellers, because of the imbalance between fares and the use and cost of the infrastructure.


It isn't very direct.


In other words, it would require a substantial subsidy.

I think it has already been heavily subsidised - a huge figure (around £5 million) has already been spend on this project. From https://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/ne...ew-signalling-scheme-for-main-line-connection

"In February, 2013, the Swanage Railway was awarded a £1.47 million grant by the Government's Coastal Communities Fund – followed by a further £390,000 'top-up' award in August, 2014 – to introduce a trial passenger train service between Wareham, Corfe Castle and Swanage. That trial train service is set to start during the first half of 2016 and run on 140 selected days over two years.

It was in 2010 that Dorset county and Purbeck district councils pledged to invest £3.2 million, over three years, to pay for a new signalling system to enable passenger trains between Wareham and Corfe Castle – £2.85 million going to Network Rail and £350,000 to the Swanage Railway for the work."

Money well spent?

 

[yorksrob]

Money well spent?

The infrastructure could have been - depending on what its now used for.

Really, I think it needs to be run as an extension of the main line railway with proper fares integration.

 

[tumbles]

£25 return (I think?) versus a whole week of parking at any of the Swanage long stay car parks (£31). So yeah a family of 4 forking out over £70 for a trip to the seaside.. it was never going to be appealing.

As many others have stated.. a separate line from Worgret Jnc might have been a better idea.. OR building some sort of second station/P&R by the Wareham bypass.

 

[Titfield]

£25 return (I think?) versus a whole week of parking at any of the Swanage long stay car parks (£31). So yeah a family of 4 forking out over £70 for a trip to the seaside.. it was never going to be appealing.

As many others have stated.. a separate line from Worgret Jnc might have been a better idea.. OR building some sort of second station/P&R by the Wareham bypass.

It is a very unfortunate set of circumstances really: (1) the branch line from Swanage didnt have a completely dedicated line all the way to Wareham Station (in a similar way that the Lymington branch has at Brockenhurst) thus enabling a full separation of branch and mainline trains. (2) the traffic congestion in Purbeck starts at the Bakers Arms roundabout (the end of the Upton by Pass) which is well before Wareham and thus a service between Swanage and Wareham doesnt solve the problem in its entirety. (3) building a second station or park and ride by the Wareham by pass would be horrendously expensive and there are land flood plain issues. Though as i have said earlier one idea would be to compulsory purchase the rather grotty industrial estate by the station and build a new station car park to free up the current station car park to be returned to being the down bay platform.

If there was the money then in reality Network Rail (or whatever it now is) should buy out the lease from Swanage Railway and operate a normal service. I can not see how heritage rail and non heritage rail could operate side by side. Ironically Swanage railway Trust could hardly argue with this as it is actually what their predecessors actually campaigned for, it only becoming a heritage railway project when it was known that BR would not change its plans to close.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps Cross Country could extend beyond Bournemouth to Corfe Castle?

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps Cross Country could extend beyond Bournemouth to Corfe Castle?

I am not sure that Cross Country even want to serve Bournemouth.