Swanage Railway - trains to Wareham 2024

[341o2]

So am I, and I would not have visited the Swanage Railway otherwise, but fully understand the cost and complications of operating the trains. I doubt that even if the service was more frequent, and ran for more of the day, it would be more useful for local people than the buses.

(What a pity BR, or the SR, did not provide an independent third line between Wareham and Worgret Junction, as was done at Brockenhurst for the Lymington branch!)

In steam days, the Lymington branch was not separate, and trains ran over the mainline between Lymington Junction and Brockenhurst.
As Worgret is in a cutting, and there is the bridge as well, having the Swanage branch line train run on the mainline and into one of the bay platforms was the easy solutiom..
Would NR allow mainline and heritage trains on adjacent tracks? I recall that the West Somerset Railway had this issue regarding running into Taunton

There is this video https://www.facebook.com/swanagerailway/videos/1119123862427144

 

[paul1609]

I am not sure that Cross Country even want to serve Bournemouth.

I think that Bournemouth is only a convient place to turn the trains back. If there were Suitable turn back facilities at Southampton I doubt they would go further.

In steam days, the Lymington branch was not separate, and trains ran over the mainline between Lymington Junction and Brockenhurst.
As Worgret is in a cutting, and there is the bridge as well, having the Swanage branch line train run on the mainline and into one of the bay platforms was the easy solutiom..
Would NR allow mainline and heritage trains on adjacent tracks? I recall that the West Somerset Railway had this issue regarding running into Taunton

The Spa Valley does between Birchden Junction and Eridge as does (did?) the Barry Island set up.

 

[Titfield]

I think that Bournemouth is only a convient place to turn the trains back. If there were Suitable turn back facilities at Southampton I doubt they would go further.

Yes I appreciate that. I have been on cross country to / from bmth quite a few times and the services arent that well patronised south of basingstoke.

 

[paul1609]

Yes I appreciate that. I have been on cross country to / from bmth quite a few times and the services arent that well patronised south of basingstoke.

I understand that Southampton Central /Airport Parkway are one of the most lucrative destinations (lots of special first class fares) on the xc network because of the Southampton/ Portsmouth cruise terminals and the wealthy individuals /channel islands government traffic from the Blue Islands flights at Southampton Airport.

 

[TrainBoy98]

I feel like in summer at least XC must do well out of Bournemouth? I seem to remember them doubling up Voyagers down there a few summers back

 

[Invincible]

I feel like in summer at least XC must do well out of Bournemouth? I seem to remember them doubling up Voyagers down there a few summers back

Last year XC and the Branchline Society ran a special Manchester to Bournemouth and Swanage Farewell to the HST 125/ Pines Express charter.
Obviously will not run again with the HST 125 this year. But could use Voyagers for specials to Swanage

The Branchline Society have announced a special 33/4TC charter from London to the Swanage Diesel and Beer Gala in May.

There is also a RTC Bahamas Steam charter from Swanage to Bristol, plus 2 RTC London to Swanage charters in June and another 2 RTC London to Swanage charters in September.

It could be more 33/4TC cost effective "seaside special" charters from London to Swanage could be run (as in previous years) if XC don't run any?.

 

[JonathanH]

It could be more 33/4TC cost effective "seaside special" charters from London to Swanage could be run (as in previous years) if XC don't run any?.

That depends on who the £100 or so it would cost each passenger is cost effective for.

 

[43096]

Last year XC and the Branchline Society ran a special Manchester to Bournemouth and Swanage Farewell to the HST 125/ Pines Express charter.
Obviously will not run again with the HST 125 this year. But could use Voyagers for specials to Swanage

There are HSTs available for charter hire that could be used.

 

[nanstallon]

All a long way from the original aim of restoring a day to day service over a branch that should not have closed - it wasn't even on Beeching's list. But (a) it is hopelessly complicated to restore a service if it involves using the main line for any distance, and (b) times change. Had the Swanage branch not been closed in 1972, while BR were still in the grip of retrenchment for its own sake, it would probably still be running as part of the regular network, just like lines such as Looe or Blaenau Ffestiniog. But there we are; the ship has left the port.

 

[Invincible]

That depends on who the £100 or so it would cost each passenger is cost effective for.

The cost per passenger of the 33/4TC for the gala is £49 single. Likely to be sold out quick,

If run as a day return from London , like the previous 4TC seaside specials, which used partly electric powered 2x 73 locos, will be less (£80 to 90 per passenger?).

The Bahamas return is £115 to £305 per passenger, depending on class or food, has the advance of longer trains, also likely to sell out.

 

[yorksrob]

All a long way from the original aim of restoring a day to day service over a branch that should not have closed - it wasn't even on Beeching's list. But (a) it is hopelessly complicated to restore a service if it involves using the main line for any distance, and (b) times change. Had the Swanage branch not been closed in 1972, while BR were still in the grip of retrenchment for its own sake, it would probably still be running as part of the regular network, just like lines such as Looe or Blaenau Ffestiniog. But there we are; the ship has left the port.

I still think it's worth looking at ways of sharing tracks with national rail and preserved railways.

Indeed, Whitby shows that this can be done, although NR has control of the line.

 

[JonathanH]

The cost per passenger of the 33/4TC for the gala is £49 single. Likely to be sold out quick,

Indeed, basically £100 return then.

 

[Titfield]

I still think it's worth looking at ways of sharing tracks with national rail and preserved railways.

Indeed, Whitby shows that this can be done, although NR has control of the line.

I dont think it is "the ways" per se but the costs incurred (mainline insurance premium, track access charges, station access charges).

 

[yorksrob]

I dont think it is "the ways" per se but the costs incurred (mainline insurance premium, track access charges, station access charges).

Indeed. The experiment, whilst useful, suggests that the service needs to be run from the TOC as a normal service. The preserved railway could carry on being just that.

This wouldn't abstract revenue from the preserved railway business because hardly anyone goes to a preserved railway to get on a current multiple unit.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. The experiment, whilst useful, suggests that the service needs to be run from the TOC as a normal service. The preserved railway could carry on being just that.

This wouldn't abstract revenue from the preserved railway business because hardly anyone goes to a preserved railway to get on a current multiple unit.

Sorry but that's not my view on my last Scotrail trip out to Arisaig on the Mallaig line there were two coach parties booked for a "Jacobite" experience as well as a guided Chinese Party. The guard made announcements telling passengers to get their cameras ready because we were approaching the harry potter viaduct and then again to tell them that we would be waiting at the next station where they had time to step on the platform to take pictures of the steam train. A national rail TOC operating trains to Swanage at National Rail Fares would effectively kill the Swanage Railway as is.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry but that's not my view on my last Scotrail trip out to Arisaig on the Mallaig line there were two coach parties booked for a "Jacobite" experience as well as a guided Chinese Party. The guard made announcements telling passengers to get their cameras ready because we were approaching the harry potter viaduct and then again to tell them that we would be waiting at the next station where they had time to step on the platform to take pictures of the steam train. A national rail TOC operating trains to Swanage at National Rail Fares would effectively kill the Swanage Railway as is.

I guess it depends on how many passengers are primarily on the railway or there for the scenery. If the majority are there for a heritage railway experience, they're not going to be tempted by a 158. The WHL attracts a lot of people primarily for the scenery/Harry Potter

Also, NR services could potentially bring in a lot of passing trade to the Swanage Railways buffets and shops.

Put it another way. If someone started running an electrostar service along the K&ESR, how many of its existing clientele would choose it over a steam train ?

 

[paul1609]

I guess it depends on how many passengers are primarily on the railway or there for the scenery. If the majority are there for a heritage railway experience, they're not going to be tempted by a 158. The WHL attracts a lot of people primarily for the scenery/Harry Potter

Also, NR services could potentially bring in a lot of passing trade to the Swanage Railways buffets and shops.

Put it another way. If someone started running an electrostar service along the K&ESR, how many of its existing clientele would choose it over a steam train ?

As I understand it from an insider source the first trial of MK1 coaches on the Swanage to Wareham through service caused 7000 passengers to be extracted from the core heritage operations.
I think the ORRs ban on new third rail and the weird and wonderful legacy DNO electricity supplies in the Tenterden area probably means that a competing Electrostar wouldn't make it as far as the mainline connection at Robertsbridge.

 

[yorksrob]

As I understand it from an insider source the first trial of MK1 coaches on the Swanage to Wareham through service caused 7000 passengers to be extracted from the core heritage operations.
I think the ORRs ban on new third rail and the weird and wonderful legacy DNO electricity supplies in the Tenterden area probably means that a competing Electrostar wouldn't make it as far as the mainline connection at Robertsbridge.

Well indeed, a mk1 carriage feels like a heritage carriage nowadays. A modern train wouldn't have the same draw.

Ok, how about a 171?

 

[paul1609]

Well indeed, a mk1 carriage feels like a heritage carriage nowadays. A modern train wouldn't have the same draw.

Ok, how about a 171?

171s Lovely Jubbly, 15 miles of route clearance for 23 metre stock at network rail prices plus signal resighting to meet ASLEF sighting requirements shall we say £50 million? obviously subject to the normal network rail 500 % over project budget taxpayer bailout clause. Can we employ consultants for a report to prove this is on topic?

 

[yorksrob]

171s Lovely Jubbly, 15 miles of route clearance for 23 metre stock at network rail prices plus signal resighting to meet ASLEF sighting requirements shall we say £50 million? obviously subject to the normal network rail 500 % over project budget taxpayer bailout clause. Can we employ consultants for a report to prove this is on topic?

It's not really about the cost of conversion. The question is, if such a modern train service appeared on your preserved line, would it abstract your clientele. I strongly suspect not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not really about the cost of conversion. The question is, if such a modern train service appeared on your preserved line, would it abstract your clientele. I strongly suspect not.

I suspect not too. If it would, then I expect the Conwy Valley would do a lot better than the Ffestiniog - the scenery is easily as good (if not better) and it's about a third of the price.

But what people want from preserved lines, mostly, is a steam train.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect not too. If it would, then I expect the Conwy Valley would do a lot better than the Ffestiniog - the scenery is easily as good (if not better) and it's about a third of the price.

But what people want from preserved lines, mostly, is a steam train.

Or at the very least, a compartment carriage with bouncy cushions !

 

[norbitonflyer]

The cost per passenger of the 33/4TC for the gala is £49 single. Likely to be sold out quick,

Top & tail with a 69, apparently

 

[Titfield]

As I understand it from an insider source the first trial of MK1 coaches on the Swanage to Wareham through service caused 7000 passengers to be extracted from the core heritage operations.
I think the ORRs ban on new third rail and the weird and wonderful legacy DNO electricity supplies in the Tenterden area probably means that a competing Electrostar wouldn't make it as far as the mainline connection at Robertsbridge.

I think it would be helpful if Swanage Railway actually released the passenger numbers, revenues and costs and how they have been calculated.

One very big difference between 2017 (first trial) and 2023 (second trial) was that the 2017 trial service was effectively overlaid onto the existing service (giving 3 "trains in service") whereas in 2023 the Wareham services were part of the core service (giving 2 "trains in service"). The question therefore has to be asked if someone travelled on a Swanage - Corfe castle - Wareham service but only travelling between Swanage and Corfe Castle how is that revenue allocated and equally how is the cost allocated.

As I have tried to explain at length one of the problems of the Wareham service was that if it simply encouraged passengers who would have joined at Norden to join at Wareham instead that was no extra revenue but extra cost. Only passengers who joined at Wareham and otherwise would not have travelled on Swanage Railway can be counted as Wareham revenue.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it would be helpful if Swanage Railway actually released the passenger numbers, revenues and costs and how they have been calculated.

One very big difference between 2017 (first trial) and 2023 (second trial) was that the 2017 trial service was effectively overlaid onto the existing service (giving 3 "trains in service") whereas in 2023 the Wareham services were part of the core service (giving 2 "trains in service"). The question therefore has to be asked if someone travelled on a Swanage - Corfe castle - Wareham service but only travelling between Swanage and Corfe Castle how is that revenue allocated and equally how is the cost allocated.

As I have tried to explain at length one of the problems of the Wareham service was that if it simply encouraged passengers who would have joined at Norden to join at Wareham instead that was no extra revenue but extra cost. Only passengers who joined at Wareham and otherwise would not have travelled on Swanage Railway can be counted as Wareham revenue.

To be fair, they did have a rather splendid heritage DMU service which attracted me to the line (even in the off peak season where trains didn't run through).

Norden passengers presumably wouldn't join at Wareham if it was just a boring NR service.

 

[Titfield]

To be fair, they did have a rather splendid heritage DMU service which attracted me to the line (even in the off peak season where trains didn't run through).

Norden passengers presumably wouldn't join at Wareham if it was just a boring NR service.

Thats the £1.4M tax payer funded DMU refurbished to mainline standards. It should be splendid for that money.

 

[Mainline421]

Indeed, basically £100 return then.

Less than the cost of normal tickets during the trial https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=WAT&dest=SGE&period=20230611

As I understand it from an insider source the first trial of MK1 coaches on the Swanage to Wareham through service caused 7000 passengers to be extracted from the core heritage operations.

I don't really think that's fair description. From its inception Swanage Railway is charity set up to restore services from Wareham to Swanage, it's not just something on the side.

 

[Titfield]

Less than the cost of normal tickets during the trial https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=WAT&dest=SGE&period=20230611

I don't really think that's fair description. From its inception Swanage Railway is charity set up to restore services from Wareham to Swanage, it's not just something on the side.

Well yes but Swanage Railway Trust is trying to row back on that and talks about re-establishing the link rather than operating services,

 

[norbitonflyer]

As I have tried to explain at length one of the problems of the Wareham service was that if it simply encouraged passengers who would have joined at Norden to join at Wareham instead that was no extra revenue but extra cost. Only passengers who joined at Wareham and otherwise would not have travelled on Swanage Railway can be counted as Wareham revenue.

People like me, who used it to visit Corfe Castle from London. (And to get the rare track!) As I recall the price to travel only to Corfe Castle was much cheaper than all the way to Swanage, to encourage use whilst not taking revenue away from the core Corfe Castle/Swanage operation.

 

[Falcon1200]

People like me, who used it to visit Corfe Castle from London. (And to get the rare track!)

And me! I used the Wareham link, (also) for the rare track, to travel on the DMU, and of course to visit the Swanage Railway; My only previous trip there was on a family holiday (by car) 25 years ago. Having to use the bus to get there is, for me, off-putting.