Swansea District Line for faster Cardiff-West Wales (and How) service

[70014IronDuke]

At suggestion of mods, I have created a new thread for the subject of developing/opening the Swansea District Line for a new, regular passenger service to radically improve South Wales - West Wales & How connections.

An older, locked thread which also discusses this theme is available here.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76324&page=3

This kicks off with a thoughtful, entertaining video by Rhydgaled.

I have copy-pasted the following posts from this (absurdly long, and some would say absurd) thread on a reopening study for the long-closed Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109071

Please continue to use that thread for any on-topic subject matter.

Now, to further discuss unlocking the potential of the SDL >>>>>>

Not that I am biased or anything - but a package which accelerated Carmarthen to Cardiff trains by using the largely underused Swansea District line (at least 2 hourly) , and saving the slowish journey into Swansea High Street and the reverse ,direct to Port Talbot with calls only at Bridgend and maybe extended to Bristol would give an excellent option for the M4 corridor ( yes - I know the M4 ends at Pont Abraham, a brick throw from Ammanford with a good arm) - coupled with a better service from Carmarthen - Swansea via Llanelli and Gowerton. (maybe need a signaling upgrade from Pembrey to Carmarthen to better the headways and maybe also some line speed improvements)

Put this into a package with a "world class" bus / comfy coach connection from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - and the job can be done for a pittance compared to rebuilding a lost line through the Welsh hills . (Oh yes - provide good road connections from the urban zone of Tregaron to both Lampeter and Aberystwyth)

Small capex , better use of an underused ex GWR cut off line , and more rail jobs at Carmarthen and some bus jobs at Aber / Carmarthen.

I do think that the topic of reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is now pretty much exhausted. no doubt the subject will raise it's head in the media before the election, so i don't think it would be wise to close this thread, but please start another one for further discussions about the M4.

Well said, ChiefPlanner, though, for those most excellent proposals on the Swansea District line and further investment in the coach link between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen.

It would be brilliant to get the Swansea District Line up and running with regular services - and a Parkway station near Morriston with bus links to the hospital and up the valley to Dan-Y-Ogof Caves. Such buses could start from Swansea bus station.

Another possibility could be for Heart of Wales trains to use this line and therefore provide faster links to/from SE Wales and thus shorten the journey for those doing The Circuit of Wales (south).

..

I think having more than one station on the SDL would defeat the object of speeding up Carmarthen-Cardiff journeys. The only way you could have more stops is if you put in a new Swansea Docks station (with a tram from there to High Street station and Quadrant bus station) with a circular service between Swansea Docks and High Street stations via the SDL. That would serve all SDL stops, the Cardiff-Carmarthen only Morriston Parkway.

My thinking has long been that the recast would be as follows:

1. Swansea - Carmarthen all-stops hourly, extending to Pembroke Dock every 2hrs (with talk of a St. Clears station, maybe revise this to hourly as far as Whitland)
2. Swansea - Clarbeston Road hourly calling at Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Carmarthen, Whitland and Clunderwen
3. Cardiff - Camarthen hourly calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Swansea Valley Parkway and Llanelli only

In general, services 2 and 3 would continue every 2 hours to Milford Haven (the Cardiff service calling at Whitland then non-stop to Haverfordwest), providing approximately hourly service. In the other hours, service 2 would run to Fishguard BUT:

• both ferry services at Fishguard should be met, in both directions, with a fast service from Cardiff
• the morning services from Fishguard should remain at 10-to the even hours and the evening services at 10-to the odd hours

These two will require some shuffling of services 2 and 3 between Milford and Fishguard, with a 3hr gap in the Fishguard timetable at some point. The express being hourly means Carmarthen and Haverfordwest retain their present level of through trains to and from Cardiff. In summer, depending on availability of rolling stock, the express Cardiff service could run to Pembroke Dock as the new Pembroke Coast Express when GWR withdraws.

It isn't that much of a departure from the topic since the TrawsLinkCymru campaign did at one point include their Aberystwyth services running through to Cardiff over the SDL. And another benifit of my proposed hourly SDL service to Carmarthen is that there would be a service terminating there in some hours which could go to Aberystwyth if we ever get that far down the To-Do list .....

A lot of passenger potential is being missed by going via Llanelli & Swansea as so many more people might use a service that went from the HoW to Port Talbot and Cardiff.

Anybody from the Llanelli area who really wanted to use the HoW could easily drive to Pontarddulais - or use a bus link. A fast bus link using the A48 could also connect Pontarddulais with Cross Hands and neighbouring villages. Anybody wishing to get to/from the HoW trains using the SDL to Swansea, could easily do so by taking the short bus journey from a new station at Morriston - which should also have a P&R facility.

It would be interesting if someone could sound out the views of residents of the Ammanford, Llandeilo and Llandovery areas about such a proposal.

 

[edwin_m]

I wouldn't have thought it was sensible to divert the HoWL to avoid Llanelli and Swansea, as this would leave stations on that route with no direct or connecting service to their local centres. This is unlike the situation with West Wales under the service pattern proposed earlier, where everyone has a train to Llanelli and the choice (by through service or connection) of a train into Swansea or direct to Cardiff. With some timetabling ingenuity and probably another crossover at Llanelli the HoWL could continue to run into Swansea, with one of the District trains passing during the turnaround at Lanelli so as to provide connections between Carmarthen and Swansea and between the HoWL and Cardiff.

 

[Envoy]

I wouldn't have thought it was sensible to divert the HoWL to avoid Llanelli and Swansea, as this would leave stations on that route with no direct or connecting service to their local centres. This is unlike the situation with West Wales under the service pattern proposed earlier, where everyone has a train to Llanelli and the choice (by through service or connection) of a train into Swansea or direct to Cardiff. With some timetabling ingenuity and probably another crossover at Llanelli the HoWL could continue to run into Swansea, with one of the District trains passing during the turnaround at Lanelli so as to provide connections between Carmarthen and Swansea and between the HoWL and Cardiff.

The places that would miss out having the HoW services running to/from the east are Bynea & Llangennech - both of which have local buses into Llanelli.

Have you been to Llanelli centre? Firstly, it is a fair old walk from the station and not particularly attractive. Just to the east, at Trostre, is an out of town retail park - which most people seem to favour. Swansea is going to be redeveloped which should make it far more attractive. That said, using the SDL with a stop at Morriston, would mean a relatively short bus link into the centre.

 

[Greenback]

As with many smalelr stations, the real benefit of the stations at Bynea and Llangennech is to allow local residents the chance to travel further afield. You are right that the locals will likely use a bus to get into Llanelli, but the prospect of taking a bus with luggage in order to change to a train ay Llanelli, pontardulais or Swansea, is likely to be a disincentive to rail travel.

That's a small market, perhaps, but since the main focus of communities such as Llandeilo and Llandovery is going to be Swansea over Cardiff, then I would question how much appeal diverting the trains away from their traditional southern terminus, is going to have. I can't see there being a huge demand for Llangadog to Port Talbot, for example.

 

[Envoy]

As with many smalelr stations, the real benefit of the stations at Bynea and Llangennech is to allow local residents the chance to travel further afield. You are right that the locals will likely use a bus to get into Llanelli, but the prospect of taking a bus with luggage in order to change to a train ay Llanelli, pontardulais or Swansea, is likely to be a disincentive to rail travel.

That's a small market, perhaps, but since the main focus of communities such as Llandeilo and Llandovery is going to be Swansea over Cardiff, then I would question how much appeal diverting the trains away from their traditional southern terminus, is going to have. I can't see there being a huge demand for Llangadog to Port Talbot, for example.

Ammanford to Swansea by train takes 50 minutes. Ammanford to Swansea by bus X13 takes 1 hour 7 minutes and the buses are every 20 minutes. So the train wins - but not by much despite the fact that the bus does not take a short hop along the M4. It would not appear to be a great loss if the rare direct trains were sent along the SDL - though, obviously, the ideal choice would be to have both direct services to Cardiff yet retain trains to Swansea as well.

When I checked for the timings of these journeys, I noted that the Traveline Cymru website =https://www.traveline.cymru - does not even say that a train service links various towns/cities - it only gives the bus services - even when you select Train Only. The Uk www.Traveline.info website does give both buses and trains. Further investigation reveals that on the Wales version, if you don’t state that you wish to go from a railway station, it will completely ignore the trains. This is absolutely appalling. Best to stick to the UK version! Another confusing thing for foreigners is the Welsh version uses the term ‘Cymru’ - goodness knows why it could not be ‘Wales’ .

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ammanford to Swansea by train takes 50 minutes. Ammanford to Swansea by bus X13 takes 1 hour 7 minutes and the buses are every 20 minutes. So the train wins - but not by much despite the fact that the bus does not take a short hop along the M4. It would not appear to be a great loss if the rare direct trains were sent along the SDL - though, obviously, the ideal choice would be to have both direct services to Cardiff yet retain trains to Swansea as well.

A problem with the idea of running HOWL to Cardiff trains, as well as Carmarthen to Cardiff ones, over the district line is that it would add further to the congestion on the main line east of Port Talbot, unless the HOWL was implemented as a portion of the Swanline stopper, join/split at Briton Ferry (but ideally the Swanline would be electric or a bi-mode 319 making that idea a non-starter in the medium term). Unfortunately there is no sensible place for an interchange station allowing passengers to get off a HOWL to Swansea service and onto a Carmarthen-Cardiff express. Maybe the best answer is a bus link between Pontarddulais station on the HOWL and the proposed Morriston Parkway.

When I checked for the timings of these journeys, I noted that the Traveline Cymru website =https://www.traveline.cymru - does not even say that a train service links various towns/cities - it only gives the bus services - even when you select Train Only. The Uk www.Traveline.info website does give both buses and trains. Further investigation reveals that on the Wales version, if you don’t state that you wish to go from a railway station, it will completely ignore the trains. This is absolutely appalling. Best to stick to the UK version! Another confusing thing for foreigners is the Welsh version uses the term ‘Cymru’ - goodness knows why it could not be ‘Wales’ .

I just tested it on St. Davids, Pembrokeshire to Cardiff Central and it does include a train leg, although for some reason it thinks 'Cardiff Central' is next to the University Hospital Of Wales so it adds a bus trip out there from the train station to the end of the journey.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Being from Ammanford area myself (you probably worked that one out !) - I suspect keeping the HoW as it is makes sense (though ideally at a better frequency for say the area south of Llandovery) - passengers wishing a quicker journey to the Cardiff area could therefore change at Llanelli for the SDL services.

A West Wales modified "Taktfahrplan" (sic) or an improved standard pattern seems to make much sense.

Like the idea though of an Ammanford - Ynysforgan Parkway bus via Pontardulais - removing the trek into Swansea that the present bus does - can be a bit torrid in the peak - though this would in my ideal planning world , be in addition to the present Ammanford (and beyond) service to Swansea City Centre.

There is a dearth of jobs in this area - but generally quite decent and affordable housing and environment so (as in the Valleys) , commuting is forced on people , but without the rail infrastructure and services some of the Valleys have.

 

[MarkyT]

I just measured the two routes on Google Earth and the District line is only 1 km shorter from Briton Ferry to Llanelli than the mainline via the Swansea avoiding leg of the Landore triangle. The main line looks like it should be able to maintain higher speeds too, especislly at the west end where the SDL is much more sinuous. A Swansea urban stop could be added on the mainline at the A483 Carmarthen Road bridge in Cwmbwrla, a busy road and major bus artery that could prove popular for a lot of people in the north of Swansea. Going via the mainline would allow the direct Cardiff - Carmarthen trains to also call at Neath's well established central station. I can appreciate the benefits of a regular direct Carmarthen - Cardiff limited stop fast services, and setting up a network of express buses to connect with these at Carmarthen, but I can't see much point in routing these along the SDL. That strikes me as a solution looking for a problem.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Being from Ammanford area myself (you probably worked that one out !)

Yeah, the bit in your profile that says 'Location: Herts' next to all your posts definitely gives that one away

 

[Rhydgaled]

I can appreciate the benefits of a regular direct Carmarthen - Cardiff limited stop fast services, and setting up a network of express buses to connect with these at Carmarthen, but I can't see much point in routing these along the SDL. That strikes me as a solution looking for a problem.

The problem can be found on page 8 of SWWITCH's 2013 Rail Strategy, which I have uploaded here since SWWITCH was shut down (I think). In my opinion, that road journey time of 75 minutes from Carmarthen to Cardiff is the problem.

I just measured the two routes on Google Earth and the District line is only 1 km shorter from Briton Ferry to Llanelli than the mainline via the Swansea avoiding leg of the Landore triangle. The main line looks like it should be able to maintain higher speeds too, especislly at the west end where the SDL is much more sinuous.

Supprises me that the two are so similar in length, since the SDL barely has a linespeed above 50mph yet the mainline to Swansea doesn't fall below 65 between Briton Ferry and the Landore viaduct, with some sections at 90mph. The current fastest journey time possible is around 1hr 23min if you avoid Swansea, possibly by either route. Where the SDL comes in is trying to reduce that further, with 90mph stretches already in place there is unlikely to be much scope for improving linespeeds on the mainline, but on the SDL that could be a different story.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The problem can be found on page 8 of SWWITCH's 2013 Rail Strategy, which I have uploaded here since SWWITCH was shut down (I think). In my opinion, that road journey time of 75 minutes from Carmarthen to Cardiff is the problem.

Supprises me that the two are so similar in length, since the SDL barely has a linespeed above 50mph yet the mainline to Swansea doesn't fall below 65 between Briton Ferry and the Landore viaduct, with some sections at 90mph. The current fastest journey time possible is around 1hr 23min if you avoid Swansea, possibly by either route. Where the SDL comes in is trying to reduce that further, with 90mph stretches already in place there is unlikely to be much scope for improving linespeeds on the mainline, but on the SDL that could be a different story.

Ill have to dig out my Track Atlas at home on the length issue.

The theoretical road journey time of course does not take account of peak congestion on the M4 and the difficulty of getting in and out of Cardiff. And of course horror of horrors what happens if theirs a tail back because of breakdown or road works- queue some people arguing for a duplicate Motorway

 

[Envoy]

The 2 lanes (each way) sections of the M4 around Port Talbot and westward, frequently jam up. Surely, if a faster rail service can be offered to communities near the SDL as well as further west & north (HoW) to SE Wales, then we could get a shift from road to rail. As has already been mentioned, jams also occur in the Cardiff area - particularly at J33 just NW of the city. This junction is not fit for purpose as the flow coming from the west & wishing to take the A4232 into Cardiff or down to Barry / Airport has to cross the flow coming off the A4232 and wishing to go east on the M4. The present elevated roundabout with traffic lights is going to become even more congested as Cardiff Council in cahoots with the Welsh Government, plan to put a business park & Park and Ride on the northern side. If you think things are bad at this junction now, just think what it will be like when this crazy scheme is implemented. (Last night, traffic was jammed on the A4232 all the way back to Culverhouse Cross and beyond. This was because of high flow of day trippers coming from Barry Island combined with commuters leaving Cardiff).

Anyway, back to the Port Talbot section. Anyone who wishes to see the traffic flows in this area should click this clink and bookmark it. Return to it at various times and you will see the M4 turn red during the peaks -indicating congestion. All the more reason to improve the rail services.https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6152045,-3.8340592,23768m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[Greenback]

The beneift of fast services along the SLD, along with line speed improvements and one or two strategically sited stations, is that connectivity between Cardiff and the lowe Swansea Valley would be much improved.

As ChifPlanner rightly said, there are not many jobs in the area now, but there is good housing. At the minute, anyone with access to a car is going to take the fast road down to the M4 and drive to Cardiff, even though the M4 can jam up and access into the city of Cardiff can be terribly slkow by road. There simply is no viable alternative.

I don't really see a lot of benefits in sending the HoWL services down that way, though. Towns like Llandeilo and Llandovery are a little way outside what I'd call a reasonable commuting distance of the Welsh capital. That's why I think that although there will be some demand, it won't amount to much and would be far less than the demand from Llanelli, Burry Port and Carmarthen.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The beneift of fast services along the SLD, along with line speed improvements and one or two strategically sited stations, is that connectivity between Cardiff and the lowe Swansea Valley would be much improved.

As ChifPlanner rightly said, there are not many jobs in the area now, but there is good housing. At the minute, anyone with access to a car is going to take the fast road down to the M4 and drive to Cardiff, even though the M4 can jam up and access into the city of Cardiff can be terribly slkow by road. There simply is no viable alternative.

I don't really see a lot of benefits in sending the HoWL services down that way, though. Towns like Llandeilo and Llandovery are a little way outside what I'd call a reasonable commuting distance of the Welsh capital. That's why I think that although there will be some demand, it won't amount to much and would be far less than the demand from Llanelli, Burry Port and Carmarthen.

Commuting "breaks" at around an hour/ hour and a quarter mark and only a few do longer often dependent on salary obtained. 95% of mine go to Welshpool (14 mins) and Shrewsbury (36 minutes) the few i have that go to Aberystwyth (73 mins) are all relatively well paid for the area.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I just measured the two routes on Google Earth and the District line is only 1 km shorter from Briton Ferry to Llanelli than the mainline via the Swansea avoiding leg of the Landore triangle. The main line looks like it should be able to maintain higher speeds too, especislly at the west end where the SDL is much more sinuous. A Swansea urban stop could be added on the mainline at the A483 Carmarthen Road bridge in Cwmbwrla, a busy road and major bus artery that could prove popular for a lot of people in the north of Swansea. Going via the mainline would allow the direct Cardiff - Carmarthen trains to also call at Neath's well established central station. I can appreciate the benefits of a regular direct Carmarthen - Cardiff limited stop fast services, and setting up a network of express buses to connect with these at Carmarthen, but I can't see much point in routing these along the SDL. That strikes me as a solution looking for a problem.

a) See Greenback's post: a station, or two, on the SDL will make the whoe project that much more attractive.

b) I don't know for sure, but even if it were theoretically possible to equal the running times by running via Landore north curve (I don't know the official name), I imagine the number of free paths that way, coupled with the conflicting movements at Landore, would make timetabling much more difficult, both theoretically and in practice.

That is part of the beauty of routing via the SDL

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

I don't really see a lot of benefits in sending the HoWL services down that way, though. Towns like Llandeilo and Llandovery are a little way outside what I'd call a reasonable commuting distance of the Welsh capital. That's why I think that although there will be some demand, it won't amount to much and would be far less than the demand from Llanelli, Burry Port and Carmarthen.

As I've posted before, IMO the HoWL services really need a strategic review with or without any development of the SDL.

The current service is miserably inadequate from Ammanford (needs to be hourly to Swansea) and arguably inadequate from Llandeilo, if not Llandovery (needs to be two-hourly).

If the current HoW service is not enhanced, I agree that what there is should be kept as now, heading for Swansea. However, if a Carmarthen - Cardiff - Somewhere (Bristol? Worcester?) service were introduced over the SDL, surely the possibility of a limited service - possibly in the Peaks - to the HoW, eg Llandeilo might be considered.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Llanelli will be at the edge of commuting distance from Cardiff over the SDL however with the Monthly season @ £226.60 its not call centre workers who will be doing it.

Swansea to Cardiff monthly season is £161.70 so assuming similar price from a Swansea Valley Parkway with journey time under an hour that's where any commuting will be from.

Price is large part of the equation not just service. Aberdare for instance is only £106.00.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As I've posted before, IMO the HoWL services really need a strategic review with or without any development of the SDL.

The current service is miserably inadequate from Ammanford (needs to be hourly to Swansea) and arguably inadequate from Llandeilo, if not Llandovery (needs to be two-hourly).

If the current HoW service is not enhanced, I agree that what there is should be kept as now, heading for Swansea. However, if a Carmarthen - Cardiff - Somewhere (Bristol? Worcester?) service were introduced over the SDL, surely the possibility of a limited service - possibly in the Peaks - to the HoW, eg Llandeilo might be considered.

Agree on all counts - quoting another example - in the early 1970's , you could virtually buy a house in Hebden Bridge for a few hundred pounds (see book called "Millstone Grit" - now it is a thriving little town and a great commuting place for both Leeds / Bradford and Manchester. Local jobs were gone but others moved in and commuted. I could see the West Wales railway rebirth doing similar for some of these places we mentioned. Cardiff in any case - for the more desirable suburbs has always been expensive. You can get a decent house in the catchment we describe (new build or older build) for what I think are very reasonable prices, and certainly not Cowbridge of Cyncoed rates.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The theoretical road journey time of course does not take account of peak congestion on the M4 and the difficulty of getting in and out of Cardiff.

Off-peak such journey times are possible; I have a brother who gets driven to Cardiff to play/coach/get-coached-at squash every so often and apart from the distance I've not heard him and whoever drives him complain much about it being a difficult journey.

As ChifPlanner rightly said, there are not many jobs in the area now, but there is good housing. At the minute, anyone with access to a car is going to take the fast road down to the M4 and drive to Cardiff, even though the M4 can jam up and access into the city of Cardiff can be terribly slkow by road. There simply is no viable alternative.

There is an alternative, at least from the Carmarthen area and points west, which is what my mother, grandmother and the same brother do when they go to watch Rugby in Cardiff; drive to Port Talbot Parkway and board an IC125 into Cardiff (and try to get in first class). Stephen Crabb MP (north Pembrokeshire) also described Port Talbot Parkway as an important gateway station for south-west Wales when he welcomed news that the station was being refubished. There might be a fair bit of road traffic between Carmarthen and Port Talbot that could be cut down if pepole could be pursuaded to join the train in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthen rather than driving to Port Talbot.

b) I don't know for sure, but even if it were theoretically possible to equal the running times by running via Landore north curve (I don't know the official name), I imagine the number of free paths that way, coupled with the conflicting movements at Landore, would make timetabling much more difficult, both theoretically and in practice.

The running times I think are similar at the moment, but there's more potential for speeding up the SDL I think. As for capacity, the bigger problem is probably between Cardiff and Bridgend/Port Talbot with the Maesteg stoppers and freight getting in the way. West of Port Talbot on the mainline to Swansea, the signalling headways might go up by a minute, but you can still run at 5 minute intervals I think (provided everything took the same time) and you also have a lot less slow traffic to get in the way.

As I've posted before, IMO the HoWL services really need a strategic review with or without any development of the SDL.

The current service is miserably inadequate from Ammanford (needs to be hourly to Swansea) and arguably inadequate from Llandeilo, if not Llandovery (needs to be two-hourly).

Ammanford I think should have another station, on the line to Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen (is that how you spell it) with an hourly service between the latter and Swansea. The HOWL timetable I think should look somthing like this (though some tweaking might be needed.

 

[PHILIPE]

[Ammanford I think should have another station, on the line to Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen (is that how you spell it) with an hourly service between the latter and Swansea. The HOWL timetable I think should look somthing like this (though some tweaking might be needed.[/QUOTE]

Less chance than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth

 

[PHILIPE]

Ammanford I think should have another station, on the line to Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen (is that how you spell it) with an hourly service between the latter and Swansea. The HOWL timetable I think should look somthing like this (though some tweaking might be needed.

Less chance than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth

 

[Rhydgaled]

Less chance than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth

Less chance of what? The Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen line or the HOWL fast services on my timetable proposal?

And why is less chance of it? Most of the necessary infrustructure is already there.

 

[PHILIPE]

Less chance of what? The Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen line or the HOWL fast services on my timetable proposal?

And why is less chance of it? Most of the necessary infrustructure is already there.

The G-C-G bit. Costs - bringing up to Passenger standards, finding resouces, cost of building a station and so near to another one, doubt if could be viable.

 

[daodao]

Much of the remaining rail network in much of rural Wales is heavily loss-making. The following lines should probably be closed:
The Blaenau Ffestiniog branch
The Wrexham-Bidston line
The Fishguard and Pembroke branches
The Heart of Wales line
The Swansea District line

No Welsh town with a population >10,000 would lose its rail connection if these closures went ahead.

Retaining the line from Milford Haven to Swansea would provide suitable railheads in South-West Wales, ditto the line from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury for Mid Wales. Lack of suitable estuarial road bridges, particularly across the Mawddach, could justify retaining the Cambrian coast line to Pwllheli.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
There is an alternative, at least from the Carmarthen area and points west, which is what my mother, grandmother and the same brother do when they go to watch Rugby in Cardiff; drive to Port Talbot Parkway and board an IC125 into Cardiff (and try to get in first class). Stephen Crabb MP (north Pembrokeshire) also described Port Talbot Parkway as an important gateway station for south-west Wales when he welcomed news that the station was being refubished. There might be a fair bit of road traffic between Carmarthen and Port Talbot that could be cut down if pepole could be pursuaded to join the train in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthen rather than driving to Port Talbot.

A new station in north Morriston, replete with adequate car parking facilities and hourly service to Cardiff/Newport would create an even better alternative - of course.

The running times I think are similar at the moment, but there's more potential for speeding up the SDL I think.

Yes.

As for capacity, the bigger problem is probably between Cardiff and Bridgend/Port Talbot with the Maesteg stoppers and freight getting in the way. West of Port Talbot on the mainline to Swansea, the signalling headways might go up by a minute, but you can still run at 5 minute intervals I think (provided everything took the same time) and you also have a lot less slow traffic to get in the way.

The last time i was in the area it was 47/4s on all the Paddington workings and scores of Cl 37s on coal traffic, so I accept what you say about capacity, and restrictions east of Bridgend. Nonetheless, any new SDL service, once it was on that section, would enjoy largely clear roads all the way to Llanelli, from what has been posted on here. (bar random stuff like Tesco trolleys dropped onto the tracks etc).

Ammanford I think should have another station, on the line to Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen (is that how you spell it) with an hourly service between the latter and Swansea. The HOWL timetable I think should look somthing like this (though some tweaking might be needed.

Re your HoW timetable proposals. The problems with it IMO - apart from some very short dwell times at passing loops - is twofold (and assuming, that is, you could somehow get the subsidy to run it).

a) Your 'semi-fast' service - the xx.52s from Shrewsbury and xx.21s from Swansea - serve what you might call all "Class A"* stations on the line, but they miss out nearly all what you might call "Class B" stations. I think the latter could not and should not be ignored in terms of potential traffic growth.

* To explain my classification

Class A stations - those with current usage figures in or around the 20,000 per annum level. ie Ammanford, Llandeilo, Llandovery, Knighton, along with Llandrindod, which at 40,000 per annum, makes it a Class A+

Class B stations - those with current (or recent past) usage figures in the 5,000 - 10,000 range, namely Pontadulais, Pantyfynnon (at a stretch), Llandybie, Llangadog, Llanwrytd, Knucklas and Bucknall. There is also Builth Rd, but I'm not sure how many of that station's 8,000+ annual usage figure comes in the week of the Welsh Show.

Class C stations - the rest, typically attract between 1,000 - 2,000 pax per year.

b) More fundamentally, in my mind your proposals are flawed because the timetable views and seeks to develop the line as a cross-country through route. This approach inevitably gives equal weighting to all sections of the route. IMO, this is a waste/misplacement of resources

Any development should focus on exploiting the potential of:

a) Ammanford-Swansea (with new passing loop at Ammanford or Pantyfynnon)

b) Llandovery/Llandeilo - Swansea & Llandrindod-Knighton - Craven Arms/Shrewsbury

By all means keep the four trains a day between Llandovery - Llandod as a basic social service, but I suggest this section, barring the discovery of gold at Sugar Loaf, will remain a basket case for the next millenium. It is the northern and southern sections of the line which have the populations and should attract investment to develop commuter traffic.

Coming back to the development of the SDL, were it to happen, I'd have thought a peak hour Llandeilo/Ammanford - Cardiff/Newport train and evening return should be considered, if a path can be found east of Port Talbot.

One could always wish for an hourly Llandeilo - Morriston shuttle, I suppose, but the best likely outcome in practice would be decent connections to the SDL service at Llanelli throughout the day.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The G-C-G bit. Costs - bringing up to Passenger standards, finding resouces, cost of building a station and so near to another one, doubt if could be viable.

The costs for a new "Ammanford Central" station alone - I agree. No chance. But if a metro service to Swansea were extended up the valley? Is there a population up there that might justify reopening (if it ever was open to passengers?) in the future? Probably not, but let's not lift the track just yet.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As with many smalelr stations, the real benefit of the stations at Bynea and Llangennech is to allow local residents the chance to travel further afield. You are right that the locals will likely use a bus to get into Llanelli, but the prospect of taking a bus with luggage in order to change to a train ay Llanelli, pontardulais or Swansea, is likely to be a disincentive to rail travel.

That's a small market, perhaps,.....

It jolly well is, isn't it?

Bynea has annual usage figures of 1,600 (so, more or less, two people on and off each day)
Llangenech has 2,500 - so between 3 and 4 on and off per day.

Combined, that is fewer than half the passengers using at Llandybie, which last year posted 8,700 - making it a significant station by HoW standards.

I accept that both Bynea and Llangenech have a woefully inadequate service, and if an hourly service each way were created, these usage numbers would no doubt rise, but I wonder by how much compared to the time lost by stopping, or at least, allocating request stops?

 

[Greenback]

As I've posted before, IMO the HoWL services really need a strategic review with or without any development of the SDL.

The current service is miserably inadequate from Ammanford (needs to be hourly to Swansea) and arguably inadequate from Llandeilo, if not Llandovery (needs to be two-hourly).

If the current HoW service is not enhanced, I agree that what there is should be kept as now, heading for Swansea. However, if a Carmarthen - Cardiff - Somewhere (Bristol? Worcester?) service were introduced over the SDL, surely the possibility of a limited service - possibly in the Peaks - to the HoW, eg Llandeilo might be considered.

I agree that more services are needed on the southern section. I would prefer an hourly service to Llandeilo, which has become a bit of destination in itself for visitors these days, and a two hourly service to Llandovery.

Llanelli will be at the edge of commuting distance from Cardiff over the SDL however with the Monthly season @ £226.60 its not call centre workers who will be doing it.

Swansea to Cardiff monthly season is £161.70 so assuming similar price from a Swansea Valley Parkway with journey time under an hour that's where any commuting will be from.

Price is large part of the equation not just service. Aberdare for instance is only £106.00.

You're not wrong, Gareth. There are a few people who commute to Cardiff from Llanelli at the moment, which is around an hour and a quarter usually. I would agree that these will be the higher earners whose remuneration makes such a journey, and the cost of it, worthwhile.

In actual fact, I was offered a job in Cardiff myself, but after considering it, I deemd that the earlier starts to my day, the later finishes and the additional cost of getting to Cardiff and back was too much inconvenience for the £2k additional pay I'd be getting.

It jolly well is, isn't it?

Bynea has annual usage figures of 1,600 (so, more or less, two people on and off each day)
Llangenech has 2,500 - so between 3 and 4 on and off per day.

Combined, that is fewer than half the passengers using at Llandybie, which last year posted 8,700 - making it a significant station by HoW standards.

I accept that both Bynea and Llangenech have a woefully inadequate service, and if an hourly service each way were created, these usage numbers would no doubt rise, but I wonder by how much compared to the time lost by stopping, or at least, allocating request stops?

The fast services proposed over the SDL wouldn't stop at either. There would be no point in slowing these trains down by stopping them there. Their services would have to come from the HoW or they would be closed. I don't want to see them close, because ther eis potential there with the above mentioned service enhancements. Particulalry from Llangennech, where the bus journey to or from Swansea is a bit of a pain.

I'm prepared to have my opinion changed by a good argument detailing the advantages of sending the How trains to Cardiff via the SDL, but I just can't see any yet.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The costs for a new "Ammanford Central" station alone - I agree. No chance. But if a metro service to Swansea were extended up the valley? Is there a population up there that might justify reopening (if it ever was open to passengers?) in the future? Probably not, but let's not lift the track just yet.

Historical note - there was a steam railcar sevice from GCG to Garnant from 1907 to 1926 , and a service from Llanelli to Brynamman West up to August 1958, by then down to about 4 trains a day , mainly schools traffic as there was a very lavish bus service in the area then.

The GCG branch just about hangs in on a couple of coal trains a week. Not for much longer I suspect. Bringing it up to passenger standards would be hugely expensive , and whilst the area is quite well populated , the fact that bus services along there are sparse , I doubt it would justify a spend of about £20m to upgrade. There is a preservation group of sorts and a very optimistic plan for "The Swansea 9 lines" - this is realistically never going to happen.

I suspect it will become a cycle way when the coal ends.

A loop at Pantyffynon may be possible as I suspect the locking for the removed double line is probably still in the box - one could use the old Brynamman line platform as a turnback siding , the old Salop direction platform is sort of there , but being restored by some gallant volunteers as a garden.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Much of the remaining rail network in much of rural Wales is heavily loss-making. The following lines should probably be closed:
The Blaenau Ffestiniog branch
The Wrexham-Bidston line
The Fishguard and Pembroke branches
The Heart of Wales line
The Swansea District line

No Welsh town with a population >10,000 would lose its rail connection if these closures went ahead.

You might have a point for the Conwy Valley because there is a bus service and the train isn't really any quicker, but pepole are more likely to abandon cars for trains than buses so I would suggest that even the Conwy Valley line should be kept open. And does the train serve places the bus doesn't? Tenby to Pembroke Dock takes an hour by bus; half that by train so still useful, Tenby to Carmarthen is vital because of the summer tourist crowds and lack of bus links (bus links to Carmarthen from Pembrokeshire in general are pretty dire, I think the only link is the Haverfordwest to Carmarthen service, which is only three trips a day, for most of the journey other services make up a more-frequent service but between Whitland and Narberth those three trips are the only buses). Fishguard's rail link allows communting to Carmarthen, etc. The Heart Of Wales line serves an area with very few bus services (otherwise, I might be suggesting closure of many of the smaller stations, with buses feeding into a faster service along the HOWL).

No town would lose a rail connection if the Swansea District Line closed, but Carmarthen (pop. 14,185) and all points west would forever be stuck with extended journey times to reach Cardiff and most other places east of Swansea.

The G-C-G bit. Costs - bringing up to Passenger standards, finding resouces, cost of building a station and so near to another one, doubt if could be viable.

Granted it could be expensive, but Wikipedia tells me the population of G-C-G is bigger than Lampeter and the costs you describe have to be less than re-openning the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line. Any G-C-G line stations would be presumably single platform affairs, meaning costs should be much lower than a two-platform station with a footbridge suitable for disabled pepole. The Ebbw Vale line would have required similar work to openning up the G-C-G line for passenger services I presume, and the population of Ammanford is larger than Llanhilleth and G-C-G larger than Crosskeys. Glanamman & Garnant (added together) are also larger than Crosskeys, and Brynamman isn't all that far away from the G-C-G line so could be part of the catchment area?

Ok, it doesn't serve anywhere near the population that the Ebbw Vale line does, which might not justify the track costs (although it is also less than half the length of the Ebbw Vale line), but the incremental cost of the individual stations might have a better case than Crosskeys and Llanhilleth.

The last time i was in the area it was 47/4s on all the Paddington workings and scores of Cl 37s on coal traffic, so I accept what you say about capacity, and restrictions east of Bridgend. Nonetheless, any new SDL service, once it was on that section, would enjoy largely clear roads all the way to Llanelli, from what has been posted on here. (bar random stuff like Tesco trolleys dropped onto the tracks etc).

To put it another way, between Swansea and Briton Ferry my asperation for passenger services would be 4tph (trains per hour):

• Swansea - Manchester fast
• Swansea - London fast
• Swansea - Cardiff/Cheltenham all stops (Swanline)
• Swansea - Bristol Temple Meads semi-fast (replaces Cardiff-Taunton then calling at Bridgend, Pyle, Port Talbot and Neath)

East of Bridgend that goes up to at least 7tph, the four above plus:

• Carmarthen - Cardiff express, non-stop from Port Talbot to Cardiff
• 2tph Maesteg-Cardiff all stops (unless WAG's metro plans make this 4tph!)

a) Your 'semi-fast' service - the xx.52s from Shrewsbury and xx.21s from Swansea

Only one departure from Shrewsbury does not leave at xx:52 in that timetable, the rest (fast and slow) all leave at xx:52 (so that the timetable is basiclly clockface every two hours at Chuch Stretton and Craven Arms).

By all means keep the four trains a day between Llandovery - Llandod as a basic social service, but I suggest this section, barring the discovery of gold at Sugar Loaf, will remain a basket case for the next millenium. It is the northern and southern sections of the line which have the populations and should attract investment to develop commuter traffic.

Llandrindod, as you said yourself, is a rather important station. I really think it deserves far better than only four really slow services per day to Swansea. I also think places like Llandeilo and Llandovery should have a decent service northwards to Llandrindod and Shrewsbury not just to Swansea, I think ideally my limited stop service would run every two hours and passengers from intermediate stops could teleport on board as the train speeds through but that is of course impossible.