• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Swansea District Line for faster Cardiff-West Wales (and How) service

Status
Not open for further replies.

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,888
...
That's another part of the puzzle which is my lack of enthusasim for a 'stub service' at the southern end of the HOWL. Giving Llangennech and Bynea an enhanced service would make it harder to withdraw close those two stations, allowing the HOWL to do something about that journey time disadvantage into Swansea.

So you advocate closing Llangennech and Bynea? Or, I suspect more likely, giving both a ridiculously poor parly service?

Even if an enhanced, say hourly clock-face Llandeilo-Swansea service should ever come to reality?

I'm not against it - it might allow a more competitive service - it would save about 4 mins, i suppose.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,749
Rhydgaled said:
...
That's another part of the puzzle which is my lack of enthusasim for a 'stub service' at the southern end of the HOWL. Giving Llangennech and Bynea an enhanced service would make it harder to withdraw close those two stations, allowing the HOWL to do something about that journey time disadvantage into Swansea.
So you advocate closing Llangennech and Bynea? Or, I suspect more likely, giving both a ridiculously poor parly service?

Even if an enhanced, say hourly clock-face Llandeilo-Swansea service should ever come to reality?

I'm not against it - it might allow a more competitive service - it would save about 4 mins, i suppose.
Yes, I do advocate closing those two existing stations, at least to heavy-rail services. They have a rather poor parlimentary service as it is, meaning closing them is no big loss. In your quote above, you trimmed the end of my post which gave the answer to you question

Rhydgaled said:
Trains would take the SDL's viaduct over the Loughor then head south to Gowerton over a new line serving the eastern edge of Gorseinon, leaving nothing to serve Llangennech and Bynea unless you brought a tram-train up the cycle track from Killay to Gowerton then over the new viaduct to Llanelli. Being a tram, perhaps it could run to the centre of Llangennech via Llanelli bus station and Parc-Y-Scarlets rather than using the current out-of-town station. That last bit is probably pie-in-the-sky, but I just like throwing it out there.
In other words, I think that an hourly clock-face Llandeilo-Swansea (or Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen - Swansea) would make alot more sense with a new Gowerton-Gorseinon-SDL link line, avoiding the time-consuming detour via Llanelli.

That leaves three options for Llangennech and Bynea:
  1. Complete closure
  2. Platforms knocked down for low-floor tram-trains instead
  3. Closure and replacement with new tram stops in Pemberton (Parc-Y-Scarlets), Bryn and the centre of Llangennech (the pie-in-the-sky option)
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,888
Yes, I do advocate closing those two existing stations, at least to heavy-rail services. They have a rather poor parlimentary service as it is, meaning closing them is no big loss. ...

Well, that "rather poor parliamentary service" is as good as it gets for the rest of the stations on the HoWl - and 25% better than those in the middle section!

Let's face it, the service along the southern end of the line is hardly attractive, but it's much better than parliamentary.

But agreed, if a 1 TPH Landeilo-Swansea type service were introduced, unless there is strong evidence that numbers would pick up significantly, it might be an idea to give these stations a v, v limited service.

In your quote above, you trimmed the end of my post which gave the answer to your question

In other words, I think that an hourly clock-face Llandeilo-Swansea (or Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen - Swansea) would make alot more sense with a new Gowerton-Gorseinon-SDL link line, avoiding the time-consuming detour via Llanelli.

That leaves three options for Llangennech and Bynea:
  1. Complete closure
  2. Platforms knocked down for low-floor tram-trains instead
  3. Closure and replacement with new tram stops in Pemberton (Parc-Y-Scarlets), Bryn and the centre of Llangennech (the pie-in-the-sky option)

Good idea that it may be, that detour line ain't gonna happen though, is it? At least in our lifetimes. (That is the great plus of developing the SDL - no extra/ne build track needed.)

But if it did, while making the HoWL south much more attractive to Swansea, it would leave Llanelli out. I suspect that any decent Llandeilo - Swansea service would also attract not insignificant commuter journeys to and from Llanelli.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Reopening of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is more likely than reinstatement of the old line through Gorseinon.

As usual, the railway layout in this area is a legacy of the reasons why the lines were constructed in the first place. They were built to take minerals to the sea. I'd much rather the line to Swansea Victoria hadn't been closed, but it was, and I can't see any prospect of even a small part of the formation being brought back.

The way forward is to forget all about sending HoW trains via the SDL. Any improvements to that route should be with an eye to faster trains from Llanelli and points west through to Cardiff, while retaining the current service level to Swansea.
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
4,116
I had a go at trying to create a timetable with inspiration from Rhydgaled but factoring in 'stub services'.

Standard M-F timetable:

Shrewsbury to Llandrindod/Swansea, Llandovery to Swansea
HOWL timetable 1.png

Swansea to Llandovery/Shrewsbury, Llandrindod to Shrewsbury
HOWL timetable 2.png

Advantages:

Early morning service from Llandrindod to Shrewsbury runs slightly later, for a more convenient arrival for school children, college students and other commuters.

Time between early morning arrival at Llanelli and connection time to the London Paddington train reduced from 24 minutes to 14 minutes. Arrival into Swansea at 8:14 still allowing a walk to the city centre before 9.

Reworked timetable with an extra 4 ‘stub’ services between Shrewsbury and Llandrindod at 9:45, 13:50, 18:10 and 22:39, maintaining service for commuters and creating an option for an evening out in Shrewsbury with a return service. This gives an ‘average’ of one train per two hours between Shrewsbury and Llandrindod.

At the South of the line there are four extra ‘stub’ services between Swansea and Llandeilo, of which three continue to Llandovery, giving an ‘average’ of one train every two hours between Swansea and Llandeilo. The first ‘through’ service is slightly later, allowing better commuting opportunities northbound to Llandeilo and Llandovery.

This timetable uses 4 units self-contained all day, but services could be extended to other areas if needed i.e. Crewe.

Not all passing loops used for each service (i.e. no trains timetabled to pass at Llandovery at all) which allows slightly more operational flexibility for severe delays.

Through trains are later, meaning there’s an option to return later after a day out to stations Cynghordy – Builth Road than currently exists.

All long distance trains are still scheduled to pass at either Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod, allowing for a crew change.


Limitations:

Some long dwell times at loops and some long turnaround times at Llandovery, Shrewsbury and Swansea. Ideally there would be another loop at either Pantyffynnon or Pontarddulais – But with the current infrastructure, this is not necessarily a bad thing as it can help to minimise delays snowballing on the line.

Not a clockface timetable. As the loops are not evenly spaced, this makes it virtually impossible without having to skip stations. Therefore there are some larger gaps greater than two hours, but I’ve tried to keep these at quieter parts of the day. The first through services are later, meaning a later first service between Llandrindod and Llandovery, but these stations are very quiet, and the service still runs at a time the railway would usually refer to as “peak” anyway.

Some services run quite close to existing services on the Marches or SWML. I’ve tried to leave gaps of 7 minutes where possible, further speeding the services up by omitting Gowerton or Church Stretton if appropriate. Passengers for these stations can change at either Llanelli or Craven Arms respectively. Some trains may have to be retimed slightly.




So in short, one or two regular users may be put off by the retimes of the central section of the line, but I think growth at the North and South of the line will outweigh this and open the line for more possibilities in the future. The times that have been bolded are times that the trains are scheduled to pass between Craven Arms and Llanelli.

I ran into lots of problems, and have corrected (I think) all the mistakes. The biggest problem were trains scheduled to pass not at loops (and I had to retime a lot) and I made the mistake sending a train out from Swansea before it had even arrived :lol: - I considered starting it from Llanelli but in the end I timetabled it so it would leave Swansea later, and passing on the double track near Llangennech/Bynea instead of Llandeilo. It was a challenge to make and there may be a couple of mistakes - Though I have gone through and checked.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,646
Location
Nottingham
This is all true. However, the longest single line sections on the HoWL are in the very sections most suitable for an enhanced train service, ie Llandeilo - Llangenech (Morlais Jcn?) and Llandrindod-Knighton. Both these sections take approx 30 mins to clear.

Apart from (re-)installing loops half way along these sections (expensive, but jolly effective) the only way to shorten the clearing times would be to miss out stops or raise the line speed, where this is possible. But again, it means investment.

That may be so, but it's possible to pick the time of a new train to meet one existing train at a loop, so extra short workings can be added although the times may not be optimum. The trouble starts when that extra train is extended so it has to pass a second train. Unless one of the trains is given a huge dwell time that meet just doesn't coincide with a loop!
 
Last edited:

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,055
Location
Herts
Time the HoW made it into the 21stC , I gather in the past there was a sort of phased service with Swansea Victoria to Pontardulais slow via Gowerton , a Llanelly to Brynamman local via Bynea and a few Swansea to Shrewsbury trains , with the much remembered "York Mail" (+ lots of local freight and a good number of end to end freights like Burton to Swansea)

Rationalisation in the 1960's dumbed this down to Salop - Swansea via LLanelli - all shacks - and zero freight. (once the coal ceased from the Ammanford and GCG areas)

We should be grateful it is still there - and will visit again this summer - but it is an asset much underused . I hope the late Tom Clift , Welsh railwayman of impeccable qualifications and a good friend is looking down on this debate beningly - and no doubt nodding in agreement.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I've seen some old timetables for the southern section of the line. The local services to Pontardulais weren't regular or particularly frequent, and I think the Brynamman trains were fewer again. It didn't surprise me that these services were axed, as they didn't seem to be much use to many residents.

Still, I think that the initial 5 through services a day were a mistake. There's long been room for some kind of improvement between Llandeilo and Swansea.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,055
Location
Herts
I've seen some old timetables for the southern section of the line. The local services to Pontardulais weren't regular or particularly frequent, and I think the Brynamman trains were fewer again. It didn't surprise me that these services were axed, as they didn't seem to be much use to many residents.

Still, I think that the initial 5 through services a day were a mistake. There's long been room for some kind of improvement between Llandeilo and Swansea.

Indeed - the Pontardulais short workings were often single carriage trains - and ran almost empty according to a local census , the Brynamman branch was only really carrying schoolchildren to to Ammanford , a maximum of 200 passengers a day (evidence to the closure committee)

Buss services then were very comprehensive - and the roads were (probably) much quieter. Certainly - as a youngster we used the buses frequently and often well into the evening you could count on at least a 30 min frequency as a minimum. All fell apart in the 1970's.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,646
Location
Nottingham
Indeed - the Pontardulais short workings were often single carriage trains - and ran almost empty according to a local census , the Brynamman branch was only really carrying schoolchildren to to Ammanford , a maximum of 200 passengers a day (evidence to the closure committee)

Buss services then were very comprehensive - and the roads were (probably) much quieter. Certainly - as a youngster we used the buses frequently and often well into the evening you could count on at least a 30 min frequency as a minimum. All fell apart in the 1970's.

However I imagine commuting into Cardiff was unknown and even into Swansea perhaps rather unusual in that era, but people are saying there is more potential for that to happen today. Short workings on the southern end of HoWL could even be one of the better suggestions found on this forum...
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
However I imagine commuting into Cardiff was unknown and even into Swansea perhaps rather unusual in that era, but people are saying there is more potential for that to happen today. Short workings on the southern end of HoWL could even be one of the better suggestions found on this forum...

I think we shouldn't overplay the long distance commuting card, it's a bespoke market. Often people on shifts will not consider rail as they work too early or too late for rail to serve - the biggest employer in the UK is shift based - the NHS. These people do at least get to drive on relatively uncontested roads. Much manufacturing is away from stations also.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,055
Location
Herts
However I imagine commuting into Cardiff was unknown and even into Swansea perhaps rather unusual in that era, but people are saying there is more potential for that to happen today. Short workings on the southern end of HoWL could even be one of the better suggestions found on this forum...

The largest employer in say 1950 was the NCB - and the average journey to work was about 3 miles (this I know , as I did a B.A. dissertation on it in 1978) - some people went to Swansea for work - but very small numbers really.

Today of course , there is a greatly altered economy , with a higher propensity to commute. As I have said a good number of times , the HoW South and SDL could certainly assist this trend.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
There's no doubt that there ar emore commuters now than there were back in the 1950's and early 1960's. way back then there was far less ned to travel far. Most communities will have had good facilities for things like banks, post offices and local shops as well as the work they needed.

I still can't see much of a market for Cardiff commuting anywher enorth of Ammanford. I'm not even sur ehow much there will be from there and Pontardulais/Hendy.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,749
Reopening of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is more likely than reinstatement of the old line through Gorseinon.
Why? I reckon Gorseinon must rank fairly high on the list of the largest Welsh towns without a railway station (does anyone know for sure?). It would also be in commuting distance of Swansea and I believe is under five miles of new railway versus over 25 miles just from Carmarthen to Lampeter. The Carmarthen-Aberystwyth link would probably need two new tunnels as well so the Gorseinon link would be significantly cheaper with larger potential for regular commuting revenue rather than mostly just occasional leisure traffic on Carmarthen-Aberystwyth. The cost difference alone I would have thought would give Gorseinon a much better BCR unless Carmarthen-Aberystwyth has much bigger benifits.

Good idea that it may be, that detour line ain't gonna happen though, is it? At least in our lifetimes. (That is the great plus of developing the SDL - no extra/ne build track needed.)
Yes, the fact that track is already there works massively in the SDL's favour, but the topic title also talks about the Heart Of Wales Line. Personally, I think the Gorseinon link is key to making a commuter service to/from Swansea work for the southern end of the HOWL, as part of a commuter rail network for Swansea.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Why? I reckon Gorseinon must rank fairly high on the list of the largest Welsh towns without a railway station (does anyone know for sure?). It would also be in commuting distance of Swansea and I believe is under five miles of new railway versus over 25 miles just from Carmarthen to Lampeter. The Carmarthen-Aberystwyth link would probably need two new tunnels as well so the Gorseinon link would be significantly cheaper with larger potential for regular commuting revenue rather than mostly just occasional leisure traffic on Carmarthen-Aberystwyth. The cost difference alone I would have thought would give Gorseinon a much better BCR unless Carmarthen-Aberystwyth has much bigger benifits.

Yes, the fact that track is already there works massively in the SDL's favour, but the topic title also talks about the Heart Of Wales Line. Personally, I think the Gorseinon link is key to making a commuter service to/from Swansea work for the southern end of the HOWL, as part of a commuter rail network for Swansea.

Pontypool (pop 36,000) and its "suburbs" are the largest conurbation in Wales without a railway station. The station @ New Inn was the junction for it.
Porthcawl at 16000 is another big one. Monmouth, and some valleys towns like Tredegar, Blackwood, Abertillery are all 10K towns.

Brecon, Denbigh, Mold, Ruthin, Caernarfon are the ones outside South Wales.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Why? I reckon Gorseinon must rank fairly high on the list of the largest Welsh towns without a railway station (does anyone know for sure?). It would also be in commuting distance of Swansea and I believe is under five miles of new railway versus over 25 miles just from Carmarthen to Lampeter. The Carmarthen-Aberystwyth link would probably need two new tunnels as well so the Gorseinon link would be significantly cheaper with larger potential for regular commuting revenue rather than mostly just occasional leisure traffic on Carmarthen-Aberystwyth. The cost difference alone I would have thought would give Gorseinon a much better BCR unless Carmarthen-Aberystwyth has much bigger benifits.

Gorseinon has excellent bus links to Swansea, which serve areas that are of more interest to commuters than High St in Swansea. These include the retail park at Fforestfach, and of course the main bus station. The bus stops are more convenient for many residents than the railway station would be. Rail might attract some long distance passengers, but commuters to Swansea will, by and large, continue as they are doing now.

The cost of reinstating the railway would be high, because a lot of it in Gorseinon itself has been built over now.

I'm sure there are many other reasons why the idea is unfeasible, but that will do for now.

Yes, the fact that track is already there works massively in the SDL's favour, but the topic title also talks about the Heart Of Wales Line. Personally, I think the Gorseinon link is key to making a commuter service to/from Swansea work for the southern end of the HOWL, as part of a commuter rail network for Swansea.

I can't agree with you, sorry. Gorseinon is a side issue to the HoW now. It wouldn't be if the tracks hadn't been ripped up all those years ago, but as with Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, that is sadly what happened. i think it would be far mor ebeneficial to spend the money elsewhere. Even reinstating the old alignments to Morriston and Pontardawe would be a better use of resources.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
A parkway station on the SDL and regular services over it is the best way to improve rail services for South West Wales mainly by making rial more accessible for communities in the Swansea Valley / North of City and communities to the North West of Swansea.


1tph (GWR) InterCity London to Swansea at XX05
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Cardiff to Swansea All Stops at xx10 (connection at Bridgend to Masteg)
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Cardiff to West Wales via SDL None stop to SDL at xx25
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Regional Express Manchester to Swansea xx35 All Stops west of Bridgend.
1 tph (Wales and Borders)Cardiff to Maesteg All Stops at xx40
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
If I remember right, Briton Ferry has an additional platform face in the London direction, at the junction of the SDL and the arm from Landore via Neath.

Could that platform face be used for a Briton Ferry - Ammanford (or one of the large "Llan" towns north) shuttle every 2 hours as an experimental service? This could interwork with a 2 hourly Ammanford (or one of the large "Llan" towns north) - Swansea via Llanelli shuttle.

Back in the second half of the 1980s, I remember British Rail trying out some experimental services across the network. With the notable exception of Derby - Sinfin branch, most of these experimental services have turned out to be successful.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,055
Location
Herts
A parkway station on the SDL and regular services over it is the best way to improve rail services for South West Wales mainly by making rial more accessible for communities in the Swansea Valley / North of City and communities to the North West of Swansea.


1tph (GWR) InterCity London to Swansea at XX05
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Cardiff to Swansea All Stops at xx10 (connection at Bridgend to Masteg)
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Cardiff to West Wales via SDL None stop to SDL at xx25
1 tph (Wales and Borders) Regional Express Manchester to Swansea xx35 All Stops west of Bridgend.
1 tph (Wales and Borders)Cardiff to Maesteg All Stops at xx40

That would do very well , but there would be great pressure to stop the SDL fast at Bridgend ..(it is , I believe ATW's biggest commuting flow)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top